Codex: Chaos Legions rumours

[The Dude]

The lack of demons (Word Bearers use tons of them) leads me to think the Dark Angel's opponent will be Alpha Legion (IIRC, they don't use demons that much in the fluff, much like Night Lords).

Don't forget, there was some talk of plastic Plague Bearers in the starter box, which Hastings hasn't expressly denied.

Personally, I'm thinking they are likely, simply to be one of the things that's only available in plastic in the boxed set to encourage those mad-persons who like to buy and split multiple boxes. They would be the equivalent of the Nobz whilst the Chaos Dread would be the equivalent of the Deff Koptaz, although for the sake of you poor Chaos players, I hope the full kit is quicker at coming out than the Koptas are

[Scribe of Khorne]

Don't forget, there was some talk of plastic Plague Bearers in the starter box, which Hastings hasn't expressly denied.

Personally, I'm thinking they are likely, simply to be one of the things that's only available in plastic in the boxed set to encourage those mad-persons who like to buy and split multiple boxes. They would be the equivalent of the Nobz whilst the Chaos Dread would be the equivalent of the Deff Koptaz, although for the sake of you poor Chaos players, I hope the full kit is quicker at coming out than the Koptas are

Someone mentioned that daemons are not in the box set. I'll try and find it...

There are no plastic Plaguebearers in the 6th ed starterbox.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...=1#post6064069

[Voss]

Actually, hastings did deny plastic daemons in the starter (took me a a while to find it, as its in the WD spine thread, not the starter thread):
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...=1#post6059634
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...=1#post6059637

Demons too?


G

No

Ah, ninja'd on the search. But not the results

Fairly certain the chaos side (from what I understand of what he's said) is just the following:
character
'chosen' [elite marines]
cultists/traitor guard
dread

Don't know numbers or anything like that but it looks like character, small elite unit, 1-2 of a troops choice and the vehicle

[Brence]

Im wondering if the Traitor Guard are actually correct, read some rumours on Gladiator Warriors from I believe this very thread. Might those not be a unit of servitors build/mod'ed to maim and kill?

[The Dude]

Actually, hastings did deny plastic daemons in the starter (took me a a while to find it, as its in the WD spine thread, not the starter thread)

Ah, cheers. Hmm. Well, time will tell, I suppose.

[Son of Perturabo]

I was thinking about the rumours of the current codex staying as Renegades alongside a new Legions codex and I just don't see how it would be workable.

Its likely there will be tweeks to the named characters in the book (there was mention on here or the other thread of Kharn getting eternal warrior and/or a 4+ invul.) and if both books are out at the same time then there would be two sets of rules for all those characters. I just can't see GW doing that.

I would have thought they'd replace the current Codex with the new Legions one, then release a new Renegades one further down the line. The only stumbling block I can see for that is which book Huron Blackheart goes in. Personally I would have said Renegades as any Legions book should be exclusives for the original 9 traitor legions. However that would mean either putting a full set of rules for him on the website or in White Dwarf, or continuing to sell then current Codex, which then brings us back to the original problem!!

[shabbadoo]

Fairly certain the chaos side (from what I understand of what he's said) is just the following:
character
'chosen' [elite marines]
cultists/traitor guard
dread

75hastings69 posted "Cultists/Renegades", not "Cultists/Traitor Guard". They may be anything but IG with a Chaos arrow on them somewhere, let alone have IG stats. Nothing specific yet, so "Traitor Guard" is, perhaps, an incorrect assumption.

[StraightSilver]

Aside from Abaddon all of the characters in the current CSM Codex are already renegades.

Ahriman, Kharn, Lucius, Fabius Bile etc could all be considered Renegade, and obviously Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs fit into this category.

Jervis Johnson definitely said in a Standard Bearer article some time ago that the current CSM Codex would stay and be used as a Renegade Codex, this was backed up in an interview with Alessio not long after he left GW, and they both agreed that the Legions Codex would be in addition to the current one.

Admittedly that was a decision that was made immediately after the current CSM Codex was released so could be subject to change, but as soon as the curent CSM Codex was released the design team started working on the Legions Codex.

I am 90% sure that there will be just one book, focussing on the Legions, which will be more in line with CSM Codex 3.5, as they regretted changing that one so much when the most recent Codex was released.

Of course I am going on information that is more than 2 years old and so may be completely wrong, but I haven't heard of any other books in development for Chaos players at this time.

That doesn't discount WD updates, but AFAIK there is only one Codex coming.

[Born Again]

I seriously fail to understand the need for a Renegades book.....I mean aren't they just the CSMs that have rebelled post heresay? Do we really need specific rules for those? Couldn't they just be represented using a standard Chaos list or if thats too Chaosy one of the loyalist marine lists?

I just don't understand this need for every tiny little aspect or faction in the 40k universe needing it own little sub lists for every possible variation.

Personally, I agree however can play devils advocate in the case I beat Born Again...

Renegades (to me) would be recently turned, they would have SM gear access, with a Mark-lite system, Icons essentially. They would also have access to cult troops as elites vs troops (legion's would have those) and thats about it.

Personally, I would just play Renegades as Space Marines modeled with some Chaos bits, but I can see how it could be done.

It depends on your definition of 'Renegade'. While there are some groups of space marines that only turned a few short years ago, and are more 'anti-Imperium' than 'pro-Chaos' that would be best shown with the SM book, there are also plenty of groups that threw their lot in with Chaos millenia ago, some of which have alignments to the Chaos Powers greater than some of the Legions. These would be best shown in a Chaos book - whether that ends up being called "Chaos Space Marines" or "Chaos Legions" is just a matter of name at this point. Personally I think Huron should be in this latter book, as from existing background the view of him that I've always got is that though a recent traitor, the Red Corsairs are well and truly aligned to Chaos. A book that bridges the gap between these two types of forces is, IMO, not needed and a waste of resources for just another marine book. A book which focused more on traitor guard, cultists, mutants and so on with a limited number of CSM's as Elites, now that I would be interested in seeing.

Aside from Abaddon all of the characters in the current CSM Codex are already renegades.

Ahriman, Kharn, Lucius, Fabius Bile etc could all be considered Renegade, and obviously Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs fit into this category.

Jervis Johnson definitely said in a Standard Bearer article some time ago that the current CSM Codex would stay and be used as a Renegade Codex, this was backed up in an interview with Alessio not long after he left GW, and they both agreed that the Legions Codex would be in addition to the current one.

Admittedly that was a decision that was made immediately after the current CSM Codex was released so could be subject to change, but as soon as the curent CSM Codex was released the design team started working on the Legions Codex.

I am 90% sure that there will be just one book, focussing on the Legions, which will be more in line with CSM Codex 3.5, as they regretted changing that one so much when the most recent Codex was released.

Of course I am going on information that is more than 2 years old and so may be completely wrong, but I haven't heard of any other books in development for Chaos players at this time.

That doesn't discount WD updates, but AFAIK there is only one Codex coming.

Again, I think you've gotten a book for some of the more unique Legions confused with a Legions book that would supersede the current book and take any of the 9 Legions from it. If you have a direct quote please feel free to correct me, but I don't recall either of them ever saying this book would become "Renegades" when "Legions" was released.

[StraightSilver]

This is the interview with Alessio that clears up what happened to the CSM Codex.

http://carpealea.blogspot.com/2011/0...-cavatore.html

Basically the design team were sticking to their mantra of "simple, simple, simple" and stripped out a lot of the stuff that was good about the previous Codex.

He admits that the current CSM Codex was steered more towards Renegade Chaos Space Marines.

In one of his Standard Bearer articles Jervis Johnson also talked about this. It was an article talking about the different design philosophies that had been employed in the past, and for once admitted when they had got things wrong.

He said that they knew immediately after they released Codex CSM that they had got it worng, and that it would remain as a Renegade CSM Codex, but they they had started work immediately on a new Legion Codex which would address these issues.

He did state in that article though that the current CSM Codex would remain, and that the Legion Codex being worked on be in addition to that.

I will need to go back through my WDs to find it as it was some time ago but I do remember the article quite well.

Bear im mind though that this was a couple of years ago so may now be outdated info, but all my sources are telling me that the current CSM Codex is staying (although it may get a WD update), and that the Legions Codex will be quite different.

[Flatline]

In one of his Standard Bearer articles Jervis Johnson also talked about this. It was an article talking about the different design philosophies that had been employed in the past, and for once admitted when they had got things wrong.

He said that they knew immediately after they released Codex CSM that they had got it worng, and that it would remain as a Renegade CSM Codex, but they they had started work immediately on a new Legion Codex which would address these issues.

He did state in that article though that the current CSM Codex would remain, and that the Legion Codex being worked on be in addition to that.

Am I the only one who thinks this is pretty dumb? You know that you have messed up with the latest Chaos Codex. So what do you do, fix it? No you start work on a completely new project that will sit alongside the thing that you know your customers don't like.

Somehow I can't see the current CSM book staying, even with a WD update. For a start there is just too much cross-over between the current CSM book and a legion one. Almost all of the named characters are in the current book. Are they just going to create a whole load more for the Legions book. I doubt it. They could have the characters in both books - it's been done before - but that would normally indicate the old book is going to get a revamp and why would you revamp the CSM book when you have the Legion one?

I think the Legion book will replace the CSM one and probably keep the CSM title. If we do see another Chaos themed codex then I would expect it to be along the lines of the Lost & the Damned. I would also not expect to see it for at least a couple of years, much as I would personally love to have a LatD codex.

As an aside, I'm pretty disappointed that Alessio thinks the Daemon Codex is a good one. In my opinion it is far worse than the CSM one. Divide your army in half. Randomly determine which half you get to use. Then the whole lot has to enter play using Deep Strike (or Deep ***** as it is referred to by my gaming group). Yeah, that's an absolute winner, even before you get to the total abuse of the fluff that is required to get a balanced force. But this is a topic for another thread.

[StraightSilver]

Don't even get me started on the Daemons Codex, it is awful, for all the reasons you point out above.

Unless there are some serious changes to the Deep Strike rules in 6th Edition that Codex just doesn't work in my opinion.

It's also a kick in the teeth for Daemons players that Summoned Daemons in the CSM Codex get to assault in the turn they arrive, which Daemons can't....

I don't doubt that you are right, that the new legions Codex will replace the current one as that would be the sensible thing to do.

However nobody I have spoken to can back that up and insist that the new 'Dex will be an addition rather than a replacement. Doesn't mean they are right, but that's the info I have heard.

Bear in mind that the Legions Codex was started quite some time ago (apparently almost immediately after the current one) and so has been in development for quite some time (although not really that long when you consider there are models started more than 2 years still awaiting release).

I actually don't see a problem with the current staying as Chaos Space marines, as in my opinion that Codex does a good job of representing Renegades.

I think the Legions Codex will be very different.

Alpha Legion will get a cultists entry.

I would hope (although this is wishlisting) that Iron Warriors would get access to Basilsisks etc agin (look at the pics in the latest WD - Chaos fighting alongside Guard with artillery support. Is this a sign of things to come?)

I would also like to see some love for Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children.

I honestly think Legions will be as different to CSMs as Grey Knights are to Ultramarines, but I guess we really will have to wait and see.

[Born Again]

This is the interview with Alessio that clears up what happened to the CSM Codex.

http://carpealea.blogspot.com/2011/0...-cavatore.html

Basically the design team were sticking to their mantra of "simple, simple, simple" and stripped out a lot of the stuff that was good about the previous Codex.

He admits that the current CSM Codex was steered more towards Renegade Chaos Space Marines.

In one of his Standard Bearer articles Jervis Johnson also talked about this. It was an article talking about the different design philosophies that had been employed in the past, and for once admitted when they had got things wrong.

He said that they knew immediately after they released Codex CSM that they had got it worng, and that it would remain as a Renegade CSM Codex, but they they had started work immediately on a new Legion Codex which would address these issues.

He did state in that article though that the current CSM Codex would remain, and that the Legion Codex being worked on be in addition to that.

I will need to go back through my WDs to find it as it was some time ago but I do remember the article quite well.

Bear im mind though that this was a couple of years ago so may now be outdated info, but all my sources are telling me that the current CSM Codex is staying (although it may get a WD update), and that the Legions Codex will be quite different.

I've seen that interview before, I don't think it gives any indication to the current book being re-designated "Renegades". It has a Renegade focus, we all know that, as the previous one was more focused on Legions. While they left the door open for Legion stuff, I still read that as an intent to do "Codex: World Eaters", not "Codex: New Chaos" with "Codex: Old Chaos", but that's just how I read it. As for Jervis' words, I don't remember having ever read that article so can't comment, but I think whatever truth be in it the decision to split the books like that would ultimately be a bad, and confusing one. Hopefully they've come around to realize that by now.

[StraightSilver]

Yeah, I must admit it makes more sense when you read the Jervis Johnson article as well, I will have a try and find which issue it was in.

When I spoke to my sources at GW they did say that Codexes for seperate Legions were put forward and rejected, as was a Traitor Guard Codex.

The Legions Codex apparently will have a bit of everything for everyone, but won't include details for Renegades as these are already covered in the CSM Codex, which leads me to believe it is staying.

I have been proved wrong before though so don't hold me to that, just passing on what i have heard.

That interview does also state that the current CSM Codex was written as a Renegade Codex, but then the artwork and painting section was added in and it ended up being retitled Codex Chaos Space Marines.

They intentionally left a lot of stuff out. At the time it was apparently to simplify the previous Codex, but the plan was to later release something regarding the Legions themselves.

Jervis Johnson says in his interview that as soon as the CSM Codex was released theyrealised they had made a mistake and set to work writing the Legions Codex almost immediately, but that was some time ago now, so who knows if that's all changed.

[Fallen DA]

I pray to Tzeentch that some information/rumour tells me that this is being addressed (hopefully without Tzeentch making me grow a tentacle)

Yeah, but on the other hand you probably don't want one to fall off either.

[Fallen DA]

wasn't there a rumour that Malal was goint to be included as a new God in the book. That would be insane, and a welcome addition (tough they would probably need to retcon the fluff of a legion in order to include him).

Hopefully the marks let you be a lot more creative, like it was in the old book. My slaanseh characters always gaining a +1 ini is lame and boring. Give me drug addicts like back in the days

That would be a good way in introduce one of the missing Heresy era Legions?

[jt.glass]

Cheers TheDarkGeneral, you made this insomniac a happy bunny. With spiky bits.

An Al-mi'raj?

[Malal] would be a good way in introduce one of the missing Heresy era Legions?

I can't see Malal coming back, although I'd love it to be true, because they had problems over the IP and they have enough worries in that department already...

Also, I seem to recall hearing that the the reason there were two missing legions is so that people could invent their own. I hope so, 'cause I have...


jt.

[KarlPedder]

Really strikes me more as "we know we screwed up the current Codex, new one will be better we have already started work on it but still buy the current Codex as it will remain as renegades....."

I just don't see it happening.

[ChrisMurray]

Hmm, Chaos rumoured to be released in the last half of 2012, wait a minute isn't the world supposed to end near the end of 2012

I hope that there is more than just marines in the new codex, just so that it is different to the codex marines. I doubt there will be traitor guard, but most of the legions still use cultests and slaves as workers, meat shields etc so I can see that GW might find a way to include these.

[Portentous]

Quick point, who actually said that the new Chaos Dex would be "Codex Chaos Legions". Was that the same one who said there were going to be 3 Chaos Dexes? Or a Legions and a Renegades? Remember we need to pretty much look at everything anew given the rumour situation.

Cos the thing is, Space Marines are a key selling point of 40k, so if they've got a choice of calling the new book - indeed the first Codex of 6th Edition - Chaos Legions or Chaos Space Marines, I'm thinking they'll go with the latter, purely from a marketing perspective.

It doesn't mean there won't be all the lovely options we've been hoping for for years - after all if there are Cultists/Traitor Guardsmen in the starter box as Hastings has strongly implied it shows some progress in the diversification of the army and the inclusion of older interesting units.

There's no chance that the current Chaos Space Marines book will stay in print once there's a new (probably hardback) one. The new book will include all of the options of the old one and then some. What function would the old book serve?

I could see them doing a White Dwarf Codex for The Lost and the Damned, purely because there is a lot of cross pollination in the list (Imperial Guard units from here, Chaos units from there) with only a few unique choices. It's not really possible to include options for LaTD in the same printed Codex as Chaos Space Marines because it dilutes the theme of the list (Chimeras and Leman Russes and Sentinels alongside Rhinos and Dreadnoughts) and also makes it harder / impossible to balance. Things like Basilisks for Iron Warriors are tricky, because weren't they only included in the list because Pete Haines happened to have converted one up for his personal army?

With Renegade Space Marine Chapters it's even more murky. Are they simply Codex Marines with all of their options - Land Speeders, etc. - plus Summoned Daemons and a smattering of Chaos goodies? Or does a Chapter that turns to Chaos instantly lose the ability to fly their Land Speeders? It's incredibly difficult to represent every possible combination of Chaos forces because they are - at their heart - chaotic.

Anyway, bit of a diatribe but the point is I think the new book will be Codex: Chaos Space Marines, replacing the old one and including all sorts of options to represent the Legions AND Renegades like the Red Corsairs.

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