Codex: Chaos Legions rumours

[sycopat]

Background-wise Psychic powers are supposed to be effective at countering the powers of chaos, so it makes sense that Chaos based armies would have lots of psychic attack and little psychic defense.

The only current problem there rules-wise is the daemon codex decided to get around this weakness by giving eternal warrior to everything and having psychic powers be abilities rather than psychic powers.

What worries me is that GW tend to use the early codices as 'bar setters' and every other army will get similar amounts of psychic attack as well as improved psychic defense, but we won't know about that until we see those later codices.

As it is, giving chaos more/better psychic attack at the minute just brings them into line with other armies anyway...

[Scammel]

It depends on what 6th ed brings. If it's as drastic a change as 8th ed Fantasy and levels the playing field in much the same way, power level doesn't concern me much as long as it's cool with loads of options. If 6th turns out to be 5.1 in diguise, I want to be able to give as good as I get to the likes of IG, SW and GK.

[sycopat]

Is'nt that the idea. We don't want an overpowered codex now do we.............or do we?

Giving chaos an abundance of psychic attack at the cost of susceptibility to psychic attack sounds balanced to me. 'Balanced' doesn't have to mean 'homogenous'.
Particularly when other armies can have decent psychic defense.
As an extremely rough example(with absolutely no application to the actual game and does not take into account any other variables which might be important), if chaos is able to put out 4 strong psychic attacks per turn and stop 1, and 'the average' army can block 3 but only put out 2, the average net result is both armies getting off 1 power. Hence balance.


Where it becomes a problem(i.e. becomes unbalanced) is when other armies get the same amount of psychic attack (as the army which theoretically will have lots of psychic attack) and more psychic defense, thereby rendering the 'advantage' of more attack irrelevant and meaning chaos end up with only the disadvantage of no/little psychic defense. Which is an imbalance
To continue my example; Chaos can put out 4 and block one, the average army can block 3 and put out 4. Chaos gets off 1 power, 'the average' army can get off 3. Net result: Chaos have crap psychic ability.

Bringing them in to line with other armies, then giving them a lack of psychic defense causes exactly the same type of handicap. Unless it's offset by a strength somewhere else. A strength which doesn't disappear when it's given to the loyalists for free in their next book.

[Pushkin]

The next IA book actually is going to include Tzeentch aligned Chaos.

If i remember correctly they said the next IA book is going to be tzeentch cultists attacking an orbital prison complex/moon/ship or something, with IG defenders. I think the idea was that that the prisoners were pyschics? i remember thinking it was a really cool idea at the time (GD UK 2011) because it would also allow for a cool new take on guard security forces as opposed to standard 'army' forces. I asked about sisters of silence but didn't get a response either way.

I asked about the tzeentch forces and it was definitly more tzeentch cultists than rubricae/TS. I distinctly got the impression that Thousands sons might not feature at all! I didn't ask much else, I was too busy talking about Doom of Mymerea at the time!

The fact that they've released the Zone Mortalis stuff suggests it might be linked?

As a quick side note about Chaos, even if the new codex is released in April/May i very much doubt thousands sons will feature that heavily model wise/fluff wise? I would expect the Black Legion, the World Eaters and perhaps Death Guard to be the 'central' players as they are the most defined, most collected and perhaps the easiest to expand upon? But that's just conjecture!

Pushkin

[Xandros]

As a quick side note about Chaos, even if the new codex is released in April/May i very much doubt thousands sons will feature that heavily model wise/fluff wise? I would expect the Black Legion, the World Eaters and perhaps Death Guard to be the 'central' players as they are the most defined, most collected and perhaps the easiest to expand upon? But that's just conjecture!

Pushkin

That's not the case. All the divine legions have each a major following. Good rules tend to attract these to actually play their favourite legion where otherwise they may end up playing some other cool faction. Thousand Sons and Noise marines are widely scorned for their inability to put out anything but s4 attacks, which in todays vehicle-dominated environment is at best problematic, at worst frustrating.

Moreover the simplicity of the world eaters and plague marines' style of play is much more easily appreciated.

[Chrysis]

Where is this idea that Tzeetch, god of change, treachery and magic, would be interested in psychic defence? I suspect more the opposite, the more pyschic power hurling around the battlefield the better. Doesn't stop the son's having some of the most destructive, but I suspect that Tzeetch won't be a major player in preventing psychic attacks. As I recall, 3rd onwards Tzeetch has had no defence against psychic attacks. 2nd ed, by nature of the game, a tzeetch pysker, like nurgle and slaanesh, was just as effective at stopping powers as most other pyskers.

In 3.5 part of the Tzeentch armoury was a wargear item that reduced the effective leadership of enemy models taking psychic tests in range by 1. It wasn't a huge defense, but it was the only area effect psychic defense in the book.

[The Dude]

I have updated the first post. Can we please keep the discussion on the actual rumours, and away from games played or how much we are all looking forward to this release? Any no content posts will be deleted without notice.

The Dude
The Warseer Inquisition

[Turrican1983]

I have updated the first post. Can we please keep the discussion on the actual rumours, and away from games played or how much we are all looking forward to this release? Any no content posts will be deleted without notice.

The Dude
The Warseer Inquisition

My only concern is that the rumours from Ghost21 cannot be trusted following the Tau Rumour Scandal.

[Polaria]

Particularly when other armies can have decent psychic defense.

Orks, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle and Necrons do NOT have readily available psychic defense. Basically only Space Marines of different colors and Eldars have really reliable one. Tyranids are kind of in between.

[Starchild]

[...] Sisters of Battle [...] NOT have readily available psychic defense.

I thought Sisters got a 5+ save against psychic attacks? Or did they take that away in the WD army list?

[Corsair Princess]

I thought Sisters got a 5+ save against psychic attacks? Or did they take that away in the WD army list?

They just have like a 6+ invulnerable in general now IIRC

[The Red Pilgrim]

They just have like a 6+ invulnerable in general now IIRC

You're correct. Rather than just a 5+ for psychic abilities, they get a 6++ against everything.

[IcedAnimals]

I actually prefer it, and I am interested in seeing if it has any special effects come 6th.

So I have a question. Was the Emperor's Children "Sonic weapon dreadnaught" something that is still happening. Or was that one of ghosts rumors that are no longer considered "likely" (I of course know that no rumor is a fact)

[MajorWesJanson]

I actually prefer it, and I am interested in seeing if it has any special effects come 6th.

So I have a question. Was the Emperor's Children "Sonic weapon dreadnaught" something that is still happening. Or was that one of ghosts rumors that are no longer considered "likely" (I of course know that no rumor is a fact)

I wonder if that rumor is due to FW making the part themselves.

[prowla]

IIRC FW does have sonic weapons for the Dread. Or was this supposed to be a GW model?

[Iusedtobespacemarine]

IIRC FW does have sonic weapons for the Dread. Or was this supposed to be a GW model?

Back in 3.5, dreads and tanks can have marks in the legion part of the book. And Emp Champ can have sonic weapons armed on them as part of the weapons upgrade. So those FW arms are left over from than.

[Bun Bun]

Indeed back in the 3.5 codex there used to be rules for sonic weapon dreadnoughts and sonic weapon predators with sonic blasters instead of heavy bolters and a blastmaster as the main weapon instead of an autocannon. Believe it or not it was quite effective.

[Xandros]

Come to think of it, the newfangled 4+ invulnerable save on Thousand Sons looked to me like a generalization of their former psychic defenses; a mystical protection against everything and not just psychic powers.

Invulnerable saves generally look like the result of mystical/religious, hyper-technological or otherwise supernatural protection. Compare terminators to broadsides for example. Note that Imperial technology has a general religious undertone to it. I can't think of anything in 40k that is the result of natural causes. Maybe some dodge saves I guess.

[prowla]

Indeed back in the 3.5 codex there used to be rules for sonic weapon dreadnoughts and sonic weapon predators with sonic blasters instead of heavy bolters and a blastmaster as the main weapon instead of an autocannon. Believe it or not it was quite effective.

Ah, right you are. I forgot you can't pick those any more. Talking about which, the cult troops start to be in desperate need of new models, so let's hope the new Chaos line pops out at some point

[DietDolphin]

Come to think of it, the newfangled 4+ invulnerable save on Thousand Sons looked to me like a generalization of their former psychic defenses; a mystical protection against everything and not just psychic powers.

Invulnerable saves generally look like the result of mystical/religious, hyper-technological or otherwise supernatural protection. Compare terminators to broadsides for example. Note that Imperial technology has a general religious undertone to it. I can't think of anything in 40k that is the result of natural causes. Maybe some dodge saves I guess.

Storm Shields?

Just out of curiosity, why are Ghost's rumours all of a sudden being disregarded? He hasn't been too far off in the past...