Codex: Chaos Legions rumours

[Knifeparty]

About all this wishlisting on chainaxes, I think special rules for the humble Chain Axe feels incredibly unnecessary. If they are so awesome, how come the loyalists stopped using them? If they can create chainswords, chainaxes would be easy. If they are superior to such a degree that they should have special rules in the 40k scale, it would just be silly of the loyalists to stop using them

More than likely there is a section in the codex astartes regarding close combat, including lay out of specific styles of fighting that include chainswords predominately. It may very well be that loyal Astartes concentrate on a more balanced form of combat which would include the use of a more balanced and versitile weapon A.k.a the chainsword as opposed to the chainaxe.

Anyone who has wielded as sword and axe before knows that they both feel extremely different in your hands. The sword is much more balanced and easy to wield while offering the ability to thrust, cut, and defend, where as the axe's weight is distributed much more to the top of the weapon offering a much harder blow that is more beneficial to penetrating armour. It is also harder to defend with.

The World Eaters are known for their brutal assaults therefore they would require a weapon such as the chainaxe to augment their already formidable assault/combat ability. Astartes in general would probably prefer a sword as a way of counter attacking/defending after volley fire from bolters at close range.

[Sandlemad]

Until Lord Inquisitor Obi-Wan Clusseau pays you a visit and wonders whether perhaps you've spent too long in campaign against the foul, blood-maddened servants of Chaos and need a short rest at the Exterminatus resort. The fact that the traitors continue to use them is more than enough for the loyalists to stop doing so, I'd have thought.

Well, you can tell the Inquisition that the Flesh Tearers and Space Wolves still use them, so... ah... Maybe not the best example.

On topic: do we know for certain that 40K codices are switching over to hardbacks?

[Scribe of Khorne]

Dont look too deeply into why some units or wargear options exist guys. Even if it does pan out I am sure it can all be handwavium'ed away in the fluff easily. "The Machine spirits corrupt the user of the dreaded Chain Axe as it drinks too deeply of the blood of its victims, just look at Flesh Tearers!!"

[Theocracity]

More or less, thats what I am thinking. I dont want a restrictive system, but instead a way to make the whole book 'World Eaters' (with obvious removal of Plague/Noise/Rubric Marines and anything tied to a separate cult). Done right, all the Legions should be able to use the generic CSM types with hopefully some additions like Chaos Assault Marines.

I simply dont want a situation where the 'best' army is clearly a conflicting mish mash of units, like we have now. Lash Prince/Oblit/Plagues/Zerkers.

I really think it's going to be difficult to get your wish. It's certainly possible for them to give options for mono-build armies, but as long as certain legions or units have specialties the most competetive option will be the one that utilizes as many of those specialties as possible.

Put another way, if Berserkers are still assault specialists and Plague Marines are still super tough, then a truly competetive army will use Zerks for assault and Plagues for objective holding. It'd be nice if they include World Eaters with boltguns and Death Guard that can assault, but a mix of the specialized units will still likely be 'better' - and therefore more 'competetive' - barring some sort of restrictions or point or force org based efficiency issues.

Now you don't have to play super competetive, and it'd certainly be nice to have a monolegion army that at least has tools in its kit. But I wouldn't hold my breath for Black Legion style legion mixes to disappear from high level competetive play.

[Scribe of Khorne]

Yeah I know Theocracity, but a man can dream. :]

I would be happy with just a simple chapter tactics system. Giving us World Eater Marines, WE Assault Marines, WE Havocs, and then the cult stuff on top making WE Berzerkers slightly different then say, Black Legion Berzerkers, while disallowing (obviously) World Eater Noise Marines.

Essentially if they make the non-aligned bits the strength of the book, and the cults are just flavour, and every Legion can utilize the non-aligned parts to the same (+/- chapter tactics) degree, then I can see it working out. The cults would remain very specialized, while the balance of the book would be in Legionnaire CSM (Marines, Assault, Havoc, Chosen) allowing for all the legions to be within a deviation of balance.

Edit: As long as they dont screw up with something like Vulcan, and the Legion Tactics or whatever are just perks I think it would appease most?

[Theocracity]

Yeah I know Theocracity, but a man can dream. :]

I would be happy with just a simple chapter tactics system. Giving us World Eater Marines, WE Assault Marines, WE Havocs, and then the cult stuff on top making WE Berzerkers slightly different then say, Black Legion Berzerkers, while disallowing (obviously) World Eater Noise Marines.

Essentially if they make the non-aligned bits the strength of the book, and the cults are just flavour, and every Legion can utilize the non-aligned parts to the same (+/- chapter tactics) degree, then I can see it working out. The cults would remain very specialized, while the balance of the book would be in Legionnaire CSM (Marines, Assault, Havoc, Chosen) allowing for all the legions to be within a deviation of balance.

Edit: As long as they dont screw up with something like Vulcan, and the Legion Tactics or whatever are just perks I think it would appease most?

I think that could definitely work. I still think that the gods of Competitiveness care little for our fluff-based struggles and will likely end up blessing certain lists and cursing others. Some combination of units or special characters will be deemed proper, and others spurned - but without insight into how 6th Edition or the codex design will change things, we can only pray that the winners will be generic enough to benefit from Counts As for our armies to build our themes around .

[hazmiter]

Definitely doing khorne if they have full legion rules....

[SideshowLucifer]

I'd love to see Animosity between different legion units make a return. That way mixed lists have a little bit of unpredictability thrown in there. I currently hate how all the chaos gods' followers all hold hands and sing Kumbya together. It's akin to being able to make an army with Space Wolf Long Fangs, Blood Angles assault squads, White Scars bikers, etc.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

It's akin to being able to make an army with Space Wolf Long Fangs, Blood Angles assault squads, White Scars bikers, etc.

And apart from them being in different books there isn't really anything wrong with that. If they were all present at the same time it's something you could easily see. If people don't like the various legion/cults working together then they don't have to do it. On the other hand if you don't care about the legions you should be free to ignore them and not have it hard coded into the rules.

[brassangel]

More than likely there is a section in the codex astartes regarding close combat, including lay out of specific styles of fighting that include chainswords predominately. It may very well be that loyal Astartes concentrate on a more balanced form of combat which would include the use of a more balanced and versitile weapon A.k.a the chainsword as opposed to the chainaxe.

Anyone who has wielded as sword and axe before knows that they both feel extremely different in your hands. The sword is much more balanced and easy to wield while offering the ability to thrust, cut, and defend, where as the axe's weight is distributed much more to the top of the weapon offering a much harder blow that is more beneficial to penetrating armour. It is also harder to defend with.

The World Eaters are known for their brutal assaults therefore they would require a weapon such as the chainaxe to augment their already formidable assault/combat ability. Astartes in general would probably prefer a sword as a way of counter attacking/defending after volley fire from bolters at close range.

Except that a chain sword is a motor with a giant chain running around a blade-looking thing, while a chain axe is a motor with a giant chain running around a triangle-looking thing, and probably weighs less.

For GW's sake, they will give World Eaters chain axes because they simply look more ferocious. There's no need to give them different rules, and nothing Chaos should just be flat-out better than Astartes. See the whole Sith vs. Jedi argument, short-term gains vs. long-term prowess, focus, discipline, training, selflessness vs. selfishness, etc. Old doesn't mean better. Chaos doesn't mean original + gifts/mutations. They give up a lot for small, immediate gains that don't last. Their wargear should reflect that.

[lantzkev]

I'm really not seeing anything rumor related in that argument, nor anything in the argument that really amounts to a real reason why chaos shouldn't get chain axes that give +2str... (the draw back is you can't wield a second weapon and get a extra attack)

[Valek]

Except that a chain sword is a motor with a giant chain running around a blade-looking thing, while a chain axe is a motor with a giant chain running around a triangle-looking thing, and probably weighs less.

For GW's sake, they will give World Eaters chain axes because they simply look more ferocious. There's no need to give them different rules, and nothing Chaos should just be flat-out better than Astartes. See the whole Sith vs. Jedi argument, short-term gains vs. long-term prowess, focus, discipline, training, selflessness vs. selfishness, etc. Old doesn't mean better. Chaos doesn't mean original + gifts/mutations. They give up a lot for small, immediate gains that don't last. Their wargear should reflect that.

OK please burn your Grey knight and Spacewolves codexes then!!!

Man seriously Chaos should be at the same powerlvl if any, but there should be some drawbacks, like the rage for bezerkers, sorcerer commands for 1k sons.

But i would hate to see that crap codex of now to return, it is not alone tasteless, it is so severly underpowered and nerfed to the ground after their stupid updates, that anything not plaguemarines is almost unplayable...

[svien187]

Except that a chain sword is a motor with a giant chain running around a blade-looking thing, while a chain axe is a motor with a giant chain running around a triangle-looking thing, and probably weighs less.

For GW's sake, they will give World Eaters chain axes because they simply look more ferocious. There's no need to give them different rules, and nothing Chaos should just be flat-out better than Astartes. See the whole Sith vs. Jedi argument, short-term gains vs. long-term prowess, focus, discipline, training, selflessness vs. selfishness, etc. Old doesn't mean better. Chaos doesn't mean original + gifts/mutations. They give up a lot for small, immediate gains that don't last. Their wargear should reflect that.

U do realise most csm are older then regular sm right?

[ChrisMurray]

On the whole chain axe special rules rumour debate, has anyone considered that although TDG hinted at chainaxes, they may actually be axes of khorne or some other name rather than chain-axes? Just speculation, but that could explain why they get special rules\loyalists don't have them.

[Coasty]

U do realise most csm are older then regular sm right?

Indeed, his entire point was that that shouldn't make all that much difference, as most chaos lack the discipline, organisation and logistical support of the current loyalists.

[lantzkev]

Indeed, his entire point was that that shouldn't make all that much difference, as most chaos lack the discipline, organisation and logistical support of the current loyalists.

yeah, because having "magic" on your side that can keep you and your equipment in stasis in perfect condition forever, or add in demons to inhabit your armour or weapons, and you can travel from points A to B faster than anyone else... naw I'm sure the logistics are terrible for chaos....

[samiens]

Even just the greater level of in fighting would make logistics far less effective than for codex marines, then the lack of millions of worlds providing support, clear command structures andnot living in an area of space where two indivduals can experience time flows differently.

But this has little/nothing to do with the rumours
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[Ace Rimmer]

2H axes can be used to parry, but they are much more difficult to pull away than a sword as the centre of gravity is always away from the wielder once a blow has been struck. A 1H axe is an all out offensive weapon if you've got something in your other hand as you can't use it to parry because there isn't the resistance generated by having your hands spread along the haft to use to to push a strike away.

A sword's centre of gravity should be near the cross-guard and a such generates less force when a blow is landed, but is significantly more agile and useful as an all-round weapon as you can easily switch from an aggressive stroke to a parry or a feint.

A chain axe probably weigh's as much as a chain sword given they'd both have similar motor systems etc. but as the weight is all at the furthest point from the fulcrum, it would feel significantly heavier and be much more cumbersome to wield.

As to how this would be represented in 40k, I'd say +1S to chain axes and bring back Parry(or something of a similar vein) for all swords. But that ought to be a general rule, not just specific to WE.

[edit] or any particular faction, but you know what i mean

[baphomael]

On the subject of chain axes, I seem to remember in previous rules iterations zerkers had access to 'knorneate' chain axes, that offered a boost. Presumably, this can be justified as a mixture of the zerkers sheer brutality wielding a heftier and/or warp blessed/annointed/forged chain weapon. Thus, knorneate chain axes are distinct from regular chain axes.

[Fable]

On the subject of chain axes, I seem to remember in previous rules iterations zerkers had access to 'knorneate' chain axes, that offered a boost. Presumably, this can be justified as a mixture of the zerkers sheer brutality wielding a heftier and/or warp blessed/annointed/forged chain weapon. Thus, knorneate chain axes are distinct from regular chain axes.

Weren't those the ones that operated like old Ork Choppas that reduced an armor save better than 4+ to 4+? GW dropped that rule right quick.