Codex: Chaos Legions rumours

[Lexington]

I don't think people realise just how different Legionnaires are to Chaos Space marines, and this will be reflected in the new book.

Not...really, or at least not according to GW IP dep't, according to BL author Aaron Dembski-Bowden. He gives a pretty good run-down of how this works over a few posts in this old B&C thread. Worth taking a look at, for sure.

More, there's really not that much difference between a Traitor Legionnaire and more recent Imperial turncoats. They're Adeptus Astartes in power armor, and are typically armed with bolters. Heck, the biggest difference would be in the way of weaponry, which makes the current CSM book exclusively a Traitor Legions affair. Also, from an in-game perspective, and just because one Legion specialized in a certain thing doesn't give them exclusive rites to that. Sure, the Alpha Legion utilizes cultists, but so do the Word Bearers, and there are innumerable cults dedicated to any one of the Chaos Gods. The Legions also aren't really coherent entities anymore, and have broken into innumerable sects, cults and warbands, all with their own agendas and internal hierarchies. I don't doubt that we'll see some Legion rules in the next Chaos book (if only for the unbelievable screaming from the fanbase if we didn't), but they're not really necessary so much as longed for.

[Eddie Chaos]

exactly. a modern renegade COULD become a full fledged daemon prince in a matter of decades and a long term traitor COULD have retained his sanity and be relativity mutation free after 10,000 years. Chaos acts upon a whim and at random so no there shouldn't be two books.

[Latro_]

I think newcomers to the fluff see chaos and loyal marines and no concept of time between the two.

Really, 10k years passed and in that time there are countless marines that would of fallen to chaos e.g. say a squad of ultramarines from 5300 years after the herecy... over that time whos to say if they'd even be recognisable as ultras anymore...

The core legions even employ marines in their ranks from this time period, e.g. they dont just rebel and call em selves somin like 'the darkultraboys' or something

The core legions even employ the creation of new marines from geneseed (both their own and stolen)

So we have:

- 10k years of 'new blood' loyal marines falling to chaos, joining the old legions or their own warbands or even old warbands who were previous renegades or a core legion splinter or anything inbetween.
- 10k of the old legion marines who were in the 10's of thousands, doing exactly the same thing.
- 10k years of creation of new chaos marines from their own geneseed, stolen geneseed and even weird daemonic/warp science creations (just think, you could have a warband of csm entirely founded in the eot!)

All these marines leaving their chapter/legion and joining another or breaking away and calling their warband something else and everything inbetween and constant mergers and warband hoping.

And then to top if off you can factor in the warp/eot time can also be meaningless/bent/chopped/messed with.

All this equals chaos, total and utter chaos. how it should be.

There is a core of people who cant handle this though, they see every chaos space marine of a specific legion of being 'pure' heh, which is very narrow minded and dull but entirely possible of course for 'their' army but not chaos space marines as a whole.

[MarshalFaust]

Excellent post Latro, I agree completely. I actually like the idea if 5000 year old renegade ultras who are actually older than some heresy era world eaters just because of how messed up time is in the warp

[Theocracity]

I think the desire for Legionnaires being more powerful than Loyalists / Renegades is twofold. First, the Legions are all conceptually pretty strong identifiers and a lot of people want to associate with them, as they have very specific designs and an intricate backstory of how they fell to Chaos. They are the Original Traitors, and I think people want that to be recognized. Building on that, the second point is that they feel Traitor Marines should be scary - they are true villains, who have thrown away honor and their humanity for power or destruction. It makes less sense to give up your soul just to have the functional equivalent of what Loyalists get (plus some armor spikes).

tl;dr: Chaos should be scary, should give power to those who have fallen, and the strong backstory of Legions combined with the whole "original traitor" idea means people think they should be better.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with either concept - I can just see where the desire comes from.

[kabalite]

So are we going to see plastic box sets for the 4 main Chaos Legions?

[Souleater]

To me the Legions were better than normal marines because in the orgininal fluff they were actually outnumber 2:1 by the loyalists. The fluff has since changed.

[Baaltor]

Not...really, or at least not according to GW IP dep't, according to BL author Aaron Dembski-Bowden. He gives a pretty good run-down of how this works over a few posts in this old B&C thread. Worth taking a look at, for sure.

More, there's really not that much difference between a Traitor Legionnaire and more recent Imperial turncoats. They're Adeptus Astartes in power armor, and are typically armed with bolters. Heck, the biggest difference would be in the way of weaponry, which makes the current CSM book exclusively a Traitor Legions affair. Also, from an in-game perspective, and just because one Legion specialized in a certain thing doesn't give them exclusive rites to that. Sure, the Alpha Legion utilizes cultists, but so do the Word Bearers, and there are innumerable cults dedicated to any one of the Chaos Gods. The Legions also aren't really coherent entities anymore, and have broken into innumerable sects, cults and warbands, all with their own agendas and internal hierarchies. I don't doubt that we'll see some Legion rules in the next Chaos book (if only for the unbelievable screaming from the fanbase if we didn't), but they're not really necessary so much as longed for.

I sort of agree with what you've said, specifically that chaos isn't so different from loyalists. All of the legions broke up, but did not dissolve necessarily. Many of the legions already were organised into cells and chapters, and the followed that organisation (have I already discredited myself by using that word? :P) after the heresy. The difference is that the sizes are no longer uniform, and war-bands vary in size from a score of astartes (and sometimes a single Warlord!) to thousands upon thousands strong. Ironically though, this makes us MORE similar to loyalists than it does not, because while SM chapters belong to chapters a thousand strong, they seldom fight that way, instead taking deployments of centuries or less. Essentially loyalists operate in forces the size of many war-bands, and rarely deploy in full chapter strength. Of course crusades of several chapters occur which number above 1000 men, but all of these deployment sizes occur in increasing rarity, similar to the size of war-bands.

Just like our ADB says, war-bands are separate and distinct, but many will answer the call of their legion's master, just as some others will not. Loyalists do the same, with captains and such going renegade for personal goals.

exactly. a modern renegade COULD become a full fledged daemon prince in a matter of decades and a long term traitor COULD have retained his sanity and be relativity mutation free after 10,000 years. Chaos acts upon a whim and at random so no there shouldn't be two books.

Chaos acts as a capricious random occurance to our perception. The lords who receive daemonhood quickly are usually the ones who are more relentless and have more aspiration and take greater risks, proving their devotion, and talent very quickly. Ones that wage wars for thousands of years are wont to be more meticulous and calculating, they take longer to prove their greatness. Of course the gods do not perceive the universe's progress linearly as we do, they might see a champion who not only has potential for greatness, but will only realise it if he recieves the gifts he needs upfront. The reverse is true also, a promising champion may fail tragically in the next few years, and instead of allowing him to lead a warband into the flames (Bad flames, not good ones), the gods may depose him, and let another, better fate champion take his place.

I think the desire for Legionnaires being more powerful than Loyalists / Renegades is twofold. First, the Legions are all conceptually pretty strong identifiers and a lot of people want to associate with them, as they have very specific designs and an intricate backstory of how they fell to Chaos. They are the Original Traitors, and I think people want that to be recognized. Building on that, the second point is that they feel Traitor Marines should be scary - they are true villains, who have thrown away honor and their humanity for power or destruction. It makes less sense to give up your soul just to have the functional equivalent of what Loyalists get (plus some armor spikes).

tl;dr: Chaos should be scary, should give power to those who have fallen, and the strong backstory of Legions combined with the whole "original traitor" idea means people think they should be better.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with either concept - I can just see where the desire comes from.

Not all chaos champions turned for power or for greed, many did it for the sake of honour, and good. Angron was convinced that he was a mighty champion that could save humanity by his sword, and Lorgar thought, or rather knew, that humanity needed faith to justify it's existence and give it strength. Horus honestly believed that the emperor was betraying humanity for his own sake, and indeed evidence exists that he was in fact doing this.

Very few men can commit atrocities like these for their own sake, even space marines, who have their psychologies radically altered to be 'psychopaths' by our standards have trouble with it. Good villains did what they did for the sake of good, or for some misguided reason, and many CSM like Huron, Lorgar, Magnus, and Horus are good villains who tried to save us, and do right by all of humanity.

That's of course assuming they were wrong, and that the emperor wasn't evil. Even history as recorded by the Imperium doesn't paint the loyalists as particularly good, and a lot of holes exist in the theory about whether chaos was truly 'evil'.

[ogretyrant]

I think newcomers to the fluff see chaos and loyal marines and no concept of time between the two.

Really, 10k years passed and in that time there are countless marines that would of fallen to chaos e.g. say a squad of ultramarines from 5300 years after the herecy... over that time whos to say if they'd even be recognisable as ultras anymore...

The core legions even employ marines in their ranks from this time period, e.g. they dont just rebel and call em selves somin like 'the darkultraboys' or something

The core legions even employ the creation of new marines from geneseed (both their own and stolen)

So we have:

- 10k years of 'new blood' loyal marines falling to chaos, joining the old legions or their own warbands or even old warbands who were previous renegades or a core legion splinter or anything inbetween.
- 10k of the old legion marines who were in the 10's of thousands, doing exactly the same thing.
- 10k years of creation of new chaos marines from their own geneseed, stolen geneseed and even weird daemonic/warp science creations (just think, you could have a warband of csm entirely founded in the eot!)

All these marines leaving their chapter/legion and joining another or breaking away and calling their warband something else and everything inbetween and constant mergers and warband hoping.

And then to top if off you can factor in the warp/eot time can also be meaningless/bent/chopped/messed with.

All this equals chaos, total and utter chaos. how it should be.

There is a core of people who cant handle this though, they see every chaos space marine of a specific legion of being 'pure' heh, which is very narrow minded and dull but entirely possible of course for 'their' army but not chaos space marines as a whole.

This.....spot on!!!

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[Excessus]

I think the notion that heresy legionnaires would be better is because of their experience.

Before the heresy even started most of them had the same experience as the more veteran marines in a modern chapter, add to that X millenia inside/outside the warp continuously fighting here and there and against anything and everything. Yes, they should be more elite and skilled. Remember that the oldest "modern" marine is Dante with his 1,1k years(I think it is)...not counting Bjorn ofc...and compare with a marine that has fought for a couple of his lifetimes...yes he should be more elite...

Then we add in the effects of the warp...whose effect have unknown results...but most likely makes them even stronger...


No, not all of the heresy marines have actually lived for 10k, some have just seen a few days since the heresy, some have lived for an eternity...the time flows both ways...but even so their experience is on par with the best marines of a modern chapter...also, newer recruits might have spent 10k years in the warp when a day has passed outside, making them equally skilled. The legions, having more heresy marines to draw from, would have a higher degree of these "older" marines...

[The Dude]

We're pushing the bounds of what can be considered rumour discussion guys. Ease back on the background discussion please

So are we going to see plastic box sets for the 4 main Chaos Legions?

The main rumours have said a possible sprue (or sprues) for upgrading standard CSM kits to represent all Legions. My thoughts are that this would likely be Direct Only like the Ork Battlewagon upgrade sprue.

[LordFulgrim]

Legion-specific sprues, cult-kits, if this is true I'm a happy camper. Haven't played with my Emperors Children for over two years now. Yes I'm one of those funny Legion purists; narrow-minded and dull.
Great for those that want to play CSM as a mix and match army but allow me my fun as well(and that of a lot of others too as I'm not the only one in this). Hopefully the new codex will cater to both styles.

It makes perfect sense that those sprues will be Direct Only and I'm really excited about the rumors of a Land Speeder-type vehicle. I really don't get what happened to traitor's Land Speeders after the Horus Heresy. I cannot imagine them all going "poof" all of a sudden. Changed over the course of time yes, but altogether disappearing...nah.

[Latro_]

I didn't say YOU were narrow minded and dull, I said people who think the 'entire' core fluff of CSM has every Legion made up of marines from 10k years ago who fought in the heresy and nothing else, were. If you want the fluff of your army to be made up of emperors children who were part of Fulgrims original legion and only them then cool, that's your choice and its totally possible within the scope of the fluff. If you said 'every' emperors children army in existence was that way then you'd be narrow minded and dull, subtle but huge difference.

I think you might of read my post as 'its not really a chaos army unless you have renegade space wolves, some plague marines and a lord of tzeetch' thats not at all what i meant.

Back on track though as the dude said...

GW already sell legion specific kits: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...tCatGameStyle= for armies of the core 9 legions, I cant see them releasing entire boxed sets again like they did many moons ago for Iron Warriors etc it would not fit with their streamlined product line and reduced 'stuff' on shelves.

Cult troops though are a different matter, they are cross legion units and big sellers/popular. I expect they will always have their own kits and i'd go out on a limb and say if any units were candidates for a total re-do it'd be Berzerkers, Plague marines, Noise marines and Thousand sons. They might make these units super hard/pts expensive and therefore by extension re-do them in finecast as a 'premium' unit. I hope not, hopefully if anything is finecast it'll just be chosen (think you can probably expect some sort of power armoured chosen kit since there isn't one currently).

[Theocracity]

I wouldn't bet on anything for Chosen beyond the basic troop kit. They didn't need separate kits for Trueborn or Purifiers.

I would hope for redone plastic boxes, though - either basic troops or Cult troops. Especially if they expand options for them. Though maybe the direct only sprues could support new options.

[Flatline]

Again I've got to agree with Latro about GW redoing some of the Cult troops. Plaguemarines are currently finecast and the Berserkers are some of the oldest plastics in production, so I think they will get a revamp. Not so sure about Thousand Sons and the Emperors Children, however. While they aren't the best kits they are passible.

When talking about new kits we have to remember the current trend of adding a big new thing to every codex. I can see a couple of options here. Either a flyer (maybe a revamped Dreadclaw that fills a role similar to the Stormraven?) or a Daemon Engine (there are loads in the old Epic rules).

[MajorWesJanson]

I put it at 99% that Berzerkers will not get a redo anytime soon. Why? They are a plastic kit that works ok, even if they look old. Why redo them and try to sell new ones to people who likely have a couple squads already when they can do plastic Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, Noise Marines, Cult Terminators, Havocs, Raptors, Dreadnoughts, Obliterators, Greater Daemons, PA Lords/Sorcerers, much less new units.

There is a ton of stuff that need made into plastic, especially current hybrid kits, before Berzerkers need to even be looked at for a redo.

[Mit Gas]

Not sure they'll do new rubrics and Noise Marines when FW will likely bring out decent kits for those two. While Noise Marines are nothing special mini-wise IMHO, the TS are quite decent. I personally believe we'll get new options and units (chosen kit, cultist kit, etc) instead of redone units. I wish they'd release some teaser pics...

[DuskRaider]

Really, I think we should just look to FW for the Cult Kits anyhow. I know it's kind of expensive, but GW will never get the detail FW can.

[Scribe of Khorne]

Really, I think we should just look to FW for the Cult Kits anyhow. I know it's kind of expensive, but GW will never get the detail FW can.

The scale is off though, really bugs me.

[Polaria]

The scale is off though, really bugs me.

Can you please elaborate? I see nothing wrong with FW scale.