Whilst your standard Marine in the Alpha Legion may not have the best idea of what his fellow Marines are getting up two, i think that the Hierachy of the Alpha Legion (Alpharius, Omegon and all the higher up level Commanders) know exactly what each marine / warband / operative are doing. If they are still keeping to their philosophy of keeping the Imperium safe, whilst masquerading as traitors, i think they may be one of the most organised of Legions.Originally Posted by Fear Ghoul
Oh Pyrovore, you're like the Eeyore of 40K
You have seen ghost's spelling and grammar, right?I am merely assuming that the model range referenced by Jared Van Kell is obviously not what anybody would have seen if they had claimed to have seen a Chaos Techmarine, as a Chaos Techmarine sure as hell would not look even remotely like an Inquisitor scale chick with hook hand. Only somebody with dain bramage might think that they do.
Of all the threads in all the forums in all the world you had to post into this one.
Dear Shabbadoo, please stop trying to discuss rumours in this fluff thread.
Everyone else: Remember that GW does NOT consider the background to be carved in stone. They have drastically rewritten entire sections of 40k 'lore' (inserting the entire Necron race for a start) to make it fit with their current plans. Therefore arguments based on the fluff are inherently flawed.
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Even IF they did go heretics to protect the imperium(which they didn't, since protecting the imperium was never one of the choices the cabal presented), the current imperium is so arbitrarily different from what the emperor tried to build up during the crusades that they would never agree to keeping it "safe" the way it is. Though, that said, the Alpha Legions basic strategies and philosophies has always been about planning and a complete overbearing strategy, it's quite plausible that A&O is still out there controlling the operation to whatever ends they have in mind...
Whilst this might once have been true, GW have put in a great deal of effort over the last few years to bring together a coherent and consistent "fluff" to 40k. The Heresey series of books is a prime example of this. There are still some inconsistencies in the fluff because of older books still in print, for example references to Commissar Yarrick in the Gaunts Ghosts novels, even though the Sabbat Worlds Crusade takes place a couple thousand years before Yarrick's birth.Dear Shabbadoo, please stop trying to discuss rumours in this fluff thread.
Everyone else: Remember that GW does NOT consider the background to be carved in stone. They have drastically rewritten entire sections of 40k 'lore' (inserting the entire Necron race for a start) to make it fit with their current plans. Therefore arguments based on the fluff are inherently flawed.
The point is that GW are trying to bring together a firm and steady back story. The edition of races such as the Necrons and Tau have also been done in sympathetic, if rather predictable fashion. The Necrons nobody knew about because they were asleep (not the full story I know but thats the basic gist) whilst the Tau Empire were far beyond the furthest reaches of the Imperium and it was only the expansion of the Tau Empire which brought them into contact with the Imperials.
Their additions were big changes to the game, but not so huge changes to the on going story of the 40k universe.
Anyway, this really is a discussion for a different thread rather than The Dude's CSM rumours thread.
Fluff discussion to 40K Background please.
@Shabbadoo, IIRC ghost21 claimed the miniature was a "dark mechanicus" not a Chaos Techmarine.
Either way, it it highlighted as a ghost21 rumour.
Whaaaa?! The Alpha Legion is actually protecting the Imperium posing as traitors?!? Where this fluff comes from?????
This is the war-ravaged world of Warhammer, and there's only WAR!... and hammers.
I's a little bit more complicated than this, and Poncho shouldn't have spoiled it, but it's in "Legion", the HH novel.
Doesn't stop it being fun though!arguments based on the fluff are inherently flawed.
Anyway, back to discussing rumours and this tech-marine/tech adept; Didn't more reliable rumour mongers than ghost suggest an Iron warriors Special Character at some point? Or was that just extrapolation from ghosts rumours?
I could see it being very easy for one to morph into another as the rumour spreads, and more special characters with army wide/build specific special rules does follow GW's most recent trends.
We had Jared Van Kell from Liberium Online say Honsou would appear and Darnok recently said an Iron Warriors character was seen with a huge servo harness. In fact ghost21 was claiming not to know anything about Chaos Techmarines only this "Dark mech" mini which people seem convinced is from the 40mm series.
Nowhere.Whaaaa?! The Alpha Legion is actually protecting the Imperium posing as traitors?!? Where this fluff comes from?????
(Highlight for spoilers)
The Alpha Legion turned traitor to stop the IoM as we know it coming about, the last thing they'd be doing is trying to help it survive.
I'm intrigued as to how the division between god-aligned and outright cult Marines will be handled without creating a monstrosity that rivals the BRB in size. As much as I'd love there to be cult Bikers, Termies etc, I think one of the things they did well in the last codex was establish that not everyone who follows a particular god is a member of one of the cults - the 3.5 dex had the silly situation whereby any ordinary Marine who worshipped Tzeentch was automatically a Thousand Son.
Woudlent surprise me if cult troops were moved to elites and given the exact same process wolf guard have, whereby you can purchase termi armour, jump packs or bikes (all be it very no doubt costly pts wise). Then special character unlocks to make these troops.
Only adds a few lines of extra options in the unit entries but a world of different possibilities.
(think we can 99% assume this is how chosen will work)
Then with the marks system they could scrap the current 'cult troops light' system and have a series of a icons/gifts you can buy for all vanilla units (like magical banners in WH) that bestow a generic effect in-line with a god. Like once per game it shoots out 10s4 shots (tzeentchy) or allows you to block psy powers on a 5+ (khorney) woudl add flav and add some much needed wargear.. ugh here i go wishlistin again bad badbbbad latro
Last edited by Latro_; 10-02-2012 at 12:34.
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Again, this is exactly how I would do it. If you include the option to buy the unit the appropriate chaos steeds then you could get the Khorne Berserkers on Juggernaughts that TheDarkGeneral was talking about.Woudlent surprise me if cult troops were moved to elites and given the exact same process wolf guard have, whereby you can purchase termi armour, jump packs or bikes (all be it very no doubt costly pts wise). Then special character unlocks to make these troops.
Only adds a few lines of extra options in the unit entries but a world of different possibilities
So if you put the Cult forces in the Elite slot, it's starting to get bit crowded in there: 4x Cult units, Chosen, Terminators, Possessed, Dreadnought. I suppose you could combine the Chosen and Terminators again. Possessed could go to Fast Attack - it's not as though we have a lot of choice there at the minute!
If we gain a Renegade PDF (or equivalent) unit I would imagine that it will go in Troops. So they would sit alongside the normal Chaos Marines.
There doesn't appear to be anything new for Fast Attack, unless we gain a cavalry unit. Chaos Marines riding daemonic steeds could be another place for those Berserkers on Juggernaughts.
Heavy Support could be getting very crowded too. We already have Havocs, Obilterators, Predator, Vindicator, Defiler and Land Raider. Assuming GW want to add a big kit to the range then either a Daemon Engine or a Flyer are the most likely options and they would almost certainly go in Heavy Support.
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edit nm its not worth it, all i ask is people to leave me alone, i said what i said to be left alone, please do that
Last edited by ghost21; 10-02-2012 at 15:18.
I was uming and aring about the amount of 'stuff' in each slot. However looking at newer books i wouldn't worry too much about overload. Take space wolves for example, they have 6 elite units 5 fast and 7 heavy compared to current csm's 4 elites, 3 fast and 6 heavy.
In addition to this notice space wolves have only 2 troops, necrons have only 2 troops, so do dark eldar and grey knights i think?bit of a pattern here. The aforementioned armies make use of characters unlocking other non troops units as troops options so thinking about it more i'd bet money on the cult units moving from troops and a series of characters who unlock a variety of units as troops.
CSM and traitor guard/mutants maybe? although I doubt the latter will be able to be taken as basic troops, it would work from a fluff view but possibly be a bit broken/open to abuse from a gaming perspective. I think its more likely lesser daemons get some love and be included in the boxed set (if it is csm and dark angels).
Last edited by Latro_; 10-02-2012 at 13:36.
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I like this idea. a lot. If they add a rule for the SC that means that only one of their abilities can be used per game (like the sm characters) then it could allow very fluffy armies. It would stop people being able to take more than one gods cult troops to gain advantage meaning they can make them very tough (appropriately pts costed of course).Woudlent surprise me if cult troops were moved to elites and given the exact same process wolf guard have, whereby you can purchase termi armour, jump packs or bikes (all be it very no doubt costly pts wise). Then special character unlocks to make these troops.
Only adds a few lines of extra options in the unit entries but a world of different possibilities
(think we can 99% assume this is how chosen will work)
I do hope if the rumours about adding Daemon engines into the codex is true that they get models on release, unless it's the FW ones they are adding in.
I dislike this idea intensely. While I agree and see where you are coming from on your points of balance/power and avoiding abuse across cult troops, I disagree with the idea that a special character designated as a cult special character should unlock the ability to field cult troops as Troops. I disagree because I don't think that this would be fluffy as you describe in some situations, Can we both agree that when we say Special Characters we are reffering to Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius and Kharn? If so then i present my example based on that precident: Typhus unlocks the ability to take Death guard as Troops, a fine rule for anyne wanting to respresent the outward and detached style of warfare that typhus favours on a galactic scale - detached and distant from the core of his legion and his primarch. By taking Typhus it implies to me that I am fielding the Death guard of Typhus' fleet, which I don't, I field Death Guard of the great companies under the control of the Primarch himself, which has nothing to do with Typhus and his fanciful forays into Space. Another example I might use would be the Cabal of Ahriman, where Ahriman would unlock Thousand Sons as Troops - All well and fine for someone who want's to represent the Cabal of Ahriman on the tabletop. However the Cabal of Ahriman was expelled from the Thousand Sons Legion, and therefor act independently, and what of the people who would wish to represent an army under the command of one of the generals still in the favour of Magnus the Red?
I'm sure I have made my point clear with these two examples. I just feel that making the same decisions with Special Characters from the C:SM with Special Characters from C:CSM, is not a good direction to go in from a background standpoint, because the Legions are fractitious amongst themselves. To the players that use the armies of chaos I feel it is more about the individual Characters and their place in the setting, rather than the feel of the army as a whole - that unform feel that a Special Character of the Space Marines would give a player.
Basically, I play Death Guard, but I don't play Typhus' Death guard. Please do not force me to play with Typhus.
J
I see your point, perhaps then if general HQ units (chaos lords for example) were able to purchase a piece of wargear (or gift) that unlocked the specific cult troop as a troops choice. To use your death guard as an example, your HQ could purchase "The Blessing of Nurgle" which makes all plague marines troops.
Based on GW's trends with Special Characters, I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment. GW uses Special Characters to define army playstyles, whether by moving units into Troops (Marines, GK) or by having them radically redefine their army's tactics (DE, Necron). I would be prepared to select an SC if you want an efficient way to play certain types of armys, regardless of what you would prefer your fluff to be.I dislike this idea intensely. While I agree and see where you are coming from on your points of balance/power and avoiding abuse across cult troops, I disagree with the idea that a special character designated as a cult special character should unlock the ability to field cult troops as Troops. I disagree because I don't think that this would be fluffy as you describe in some situations, Can we both agree that when we say Special Characters we are reffering to Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius and Kharn? If so then i present my example based on that precident: Typhus unlocks the ability to take Death guard as Troops, a fine rule for anyne wanting to respresent the outward and detached style of warfare that typhus favours on a galactic scale - detached and distant from the core of his legion and his primarch. By taking Typhus it implies to me that I am fielding the Death guard of Typhus' fleet, which I don't, I field Death Guard of the great companies under the control of the Primarch himself, which has nothing to do with Typhus and his fanciful forays into Space. Another example I might use would be the Cabal of Ahriman, where Ahriman would unlock Thousand Sons as Troops - All well and fine for someone who want's to represent the Cabal of Ahriman on the tabletop. However the Cabal of Ahriman was expelled from the Thousand Sons Legion, and therefor act independently, and what of the people who would wish to represent an army under the command of one of the generals still in the favour of Magnus the Red?
I'm sure I have made my point clear with these two examples. I just feel that making the same decisions with Special Characters from the C:SM with Special Characters from C:CSM, is not a good direction to go in from a background standpoint, because the Legions are fractitious amongst themselves. To the players that use the armies of chaos I feel it is more about the individual Characters and their place in the setting, rather than the feel of the army as a whole - that unform feel that a Special Character of the Space Marines would give a player.
Basically, I play Death Guard, but I don't play Typhus' Death guard. Please do not force me to play with Typhus.
J
I wouldn't worry about it too much. Counts As is a wonderful thing that can solve most of your problems if you let it.
Draigo's Razor: When presented with multiple explanations for a new piece of 40K content, the most likely answer is the one intentionally designed to make you, personally, angry.
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And fabius and Abbadon and any other they bring in. But for 'cult' troops i'd envision the ones you mention would provide the troop unlock yes. I see what you mean but look at the loyalist codex. If you want a salamanders themed army you have to take vulcan, want a whitescars themed army? gotta take Kor’sarro Khan etc... That does not mean people base their own army fluff around these named chars fluff, they re-brand them more often than not, infact this has been actively encouraged by GW.I dislike this idea intensely. While I agree and see where you are coming from on your points of balance/power and avoiding abuse across cult troops, I disagree with the idea that a special character designated as a cult special character should unlock the ability to field cult troops as Troops. I disagree because I don't think that this would be fluffy as you describe in some situations, Can we both agree that when we say Special Characters we are reffering to Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius and Kharn?
If so then i present my example based on that precident: Typhus unlocks the ability to take Death guard as Troops, a fine rule for anyne wanting to respresent the outward and detached style of warfare that typhus favours on a galactic scale - detached and distant from the core of his legion and his primarch. By taking Typhus it implies to me that I am fielding the Death guard of Typhus' fleet, which I don't, I field Death Guard of the great companies under the control of the Primarch himself, which has nothing to do with Typhus and his fanciful forays into Space. Another example I might use would be the Cabal of Ahriman, where Ahriman would unlock Thousand Sons as Troops - All well and fine for someone who want's to represent the Cabal of Ahriman on the tabletop. However the Cabal of Ahriman was expelled from the Thousand Sons Legion, and therefor act independently, and what of the people who would wish to represent an army under the command of one of the generals still in the favour of Magnus the Red?
I'm sure I have made my point clear with these two examples. I just feel that making the same decisions with Special Characters from the C:SM with Special Characters from C:CSM, is not a good direction to go in from a background standpoint, because the Legions are fractitious amongst themselves. To the players that use the armies of chaos I feel it is more about the individual Characters and their place in the setting, rather than the feel of the army as a whole - that unform feel that a Special Character of the Space Marines would give a player.
Basically, I play Death Guard, but I don't play Typhus' Death guard. Please do not force me to play with Typhus.
J
I play DG too, I don't really relish the idea of taking typhus a terminator clad model to have plague marines as troops but I can see it happening. I'm just speculating, it could well be the case marking a normal lord might provide some kinda unlock... who knows. They certainly need to streamline a lot of possibilities into a normal codex size, of recent years in multiple codex books GW has done this with characters unlocking variant army styles, thats what i was gettin at really.
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