Just reading everyone's discussion and comparisons to Grey Knights, hopes for Space Wolves unit types...i much prefer to think of the Chaos Codex as "doing what Chaos Space Marines are suppose to do".
Like i'd much prefer to see a Thousand Sons psychic Dread than a Night Lord one. It's what they do.
I'd much rather see Iron Warriors Havoc w/tank busters rule than a World Eaters unit of them.
Or Alpha Legion Cult Terminators Flank Marching, not Word Bearers Cult Terminators...
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theDarkGeneral
T'raj the Terrible
Khorne Legion Daemongorge
As long as there are still options for efficient and effective fire support for World Eaters, obviously I couldnt care less if everyone gets access to uber Havocs, I just hope we arent still caught in the open field with only pistol's as 'fluffy' fire support.
Noise Marines
Let's be perfectly clear. That wasn't ever "fluffy". I'm not aware of Khornate forces in any background or story that did operate without firesupport. I think fans have jumped to conclusions based on Kharn's lovable personality and limited Khorne Flakes (tm) brand units to underpin so-called fluffy lists.
It is ever my opinion that fluffy lists are every bit as narrow-minded as the powergaming ones and I despise both in that neither player thinks for himself but relies on popular opinion to populate their list.
I agree with you fully, but your going to be hard pressed to find anything in any 3rd-5th edition era fiction sadly. Your average player, through no fault of their own, fully believes that if you play Khorne you should do nothing but drool, and rush forward into the waiting gun's of their army. Until we get some decent fiction or Codex filler saying otherwise thats the expectation as bland and ridiculous as it is.Originally Posted by Xandros
Khârn's fluff has always referred to his use of a flamer on Skalathrax, but where have we been able to use flamers in Berzerker units? After the recent changes to fluff in other Codexes (particularly by Ward), it is not hard to imagine at least some changes to Chaos fluff to keep up with other armies. Hopefully any changes are only for the better though, and don't become stupid or done purely to allow OP units at all.
The no Obliterators or Raptors limitation in the 3.5 WE list was one of the only things I did not like about that book. Khorne Havocs were possible, but since you couldn't give them any weapons besides plasma pistols, they were pointless. Why should World Eater's only heavy weapon options be vehicles (Tanks, Dreads, and Defilers)?
Everyone Dies. It's the final and only lasting Justice. There's no greater good than Justice; It is said correctly that law exists not for the Just but for the unjust, I bow to no one and I give service only for cause...
Yeah, 2 pistol flamers per Berzerker squad sounds reasonable ;-)
The new Legion of the Damned book details the Khornate strategy well...spawn and furies first, followed by crazed world humans, then cultists, traitor guard, recent renegades turned to Khorne...then World Eaters via drop podsd and dread claws!
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theDarkGeneral
T'raj the Terrible
Khorne Legion Daemongorge
Err...
"New Legion of the Damned Book"?!?!?
Anyone else damn curious?
Nice pun.
I wonder if they will make portable Plasma cannons and Multimeltas available to havok/marines. There's a picture in the chaos codex of both with handles obviously for use by a marine yet the only way to actually get either of these is to use a dread.
Also how they handle the Rubric/Sorcerer thing. Will their be options for both for dreads and terminators? Or will they just choose one for simplicity.
Don't get too excited, he's talking about the Black Library novel titled "Legion of the Damned".
Though my guards may sleep and ships may lie at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.
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Yea, it's also annoying that in every illustration of a Plague marine they're holding a Hvy Bolter but for the last two codexes you've not been able to field Hvy Bolters in Plaguemarine units!
Surely Berzerkers with flamers, meltaguns or plasmaguns isn't out of the question? Blood angels carry them and they have jump packs! Not to mention the fact the player would be faced with a choice of having to spend points on something he might not use as the unit spends most of its time in assault (ideally)!
Last edited by t-tauri; 21-04-2012 at 12:09. Reason: Double post-please use the edit button.
It was following the events of that fate-cursed day that Angron forbid his brethren to wield flamers, and so it is to this day.
It's 'Maim, kill, burn' not 'Burn, maim, kill'.
Have cult troops never been able to wield weapons for fluff or for balance? I know the 1k sons are not supposed to because they can't learn anything, but what about the guys who were using weapons before the Rubric?
A melta to the face: if it's good enough for Huron, it's good enough for me.
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The Dark Creed series. Now, they were universal armies of Word Bearers, but they had a whole section (the 17th Coterie) that loved Khorne more because they loved close combat. They were blood thirsty sure, but they still kept their heads clear and did their jobs strategically while using heavy support to take out gun emplacements and such.
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The big question to be asked regarding the codex, especially Khorne units: Will World Eaters Terminators be able to defeat GK Terminators with "Super Mark of Slaanesh" in close combat?
Nonono. There are no good reason why Thousand Sons only have bolters. It was all a badly executed game balance attempt when they got given relentless. GW didn't wanted mobile heavy weapons so they got nerfed into the ground with only having access to bolters and then it was vaguely called "fluffy" with a poor justification and ramming minor sorcerers down everyone's throat. Even if you follow the whole "can't learn anything new" every single Son should already be sufficiently proficient with all the common close combat, heavy and special weapons to be able to operate them just as well as any other marines.It's 'Maim, kill, burn' not 'Burn, maim, kill'.
Have cult troops never been able to wield weapons for fluff or for balance? I know the 1k sons are not supposed to because they can't learn anything, but what about the guys who were using weapons before the Rubric?
It's just not logical. It would be much harder for a rubric to "learn" using a bolter again if they've been a devastator before if we go be their new fluff. However, I guess this whole aspect is due to balancing issues. IMO, rubrics are like machines - they are not stupid per se and could use a variety of tactics and weaponry, they just would be bad company. No jokes, no conversation. Think of a Terminator - it can't learn (and isn't interested in) learning new useless tricks/lingo (unless one removes some chip or whatever in Arnold's case, see T2) but it isn't completely useless in battle once you hand it another weapon. A rubric marine just demands directions from a sorcerer as else it goes into "statue-mode".It's 'Maim, kill, burn' not 'Burn, maim, kill'.
Have cult troops never been able to wield weapons for fluff or for balance? I know the 1k sons are not supposed to because they can't learn anything, but what about the guys who were using weapons before the Rubric?
edit: Oh, Gorbad pretty much reinforced what you said before me.
The question is whether or not the Fire Support would be comprised of World Eaters units or what would basically amount to allied troops. For 3 editions now, the fluff has been fairly clear that pretty much all of the World Eaters themselves, regardless of previous role, have pretty much taken up the chainaxe/sword and pistol as their armament. This is not merely due to their devotion to Khorne but that devotion coupled with the previously strong gladiatorial background and psycho-lobotomization procedure. Other Khornate troops (e.g. "Icon of Khorne" troops) that my revel in slaughter may pick up a heavy bolter and mow down foes with scything bursts of gunfire, but to a psych-lobotomized Berzerker, that's not how things are done, it is done with axe, pistol, fist and boot.
Eh, the fluff has its role, it's the primary engine of the 40k product, this game wouldn't be what it is or the best selling miniatures wargame without it. Few would pick up a game with 40k's rules if it had a different backstory, there are other games with much better rules, that aren't anywhere near as popular.It is ever my opinion that fluffy lists are every bit as narrow-minded as the powergaming ones and I despise both in that neither player thinks for himself but relies on popular opinion to populate their list.
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Have cult troops never been able to wield weapons for fluff or for balance? I know the 1k sons are not supposed to because they can't learn anything, but what about the guys who were using weapons before the Rubric?[/QUOTE]
A little of both I guess but the pre-heresy 1000 sons were effectively a Legion of psykers so they probably didn't need such barbaric weapons as flamers ;-)
I do really rate the way they defined the god specific marines in the current codex, but that's the only good thing I'll say about it. And to be fare the Noise Marines still feel a little weak against the others. I5 is never gonna be as useful as T5!
Last edited by Graystoak; 21-04-2012 at 18:56.
A little of both I guess but the pre-heresy 1000 sons were effectively a Legion of psykers so they probably didn't need such barbaric weapons as flamers ;-)
I do really rate the way they defined the god specific marines in the current codex, but that's the only good thing I'll say about it. And to be fare the Noise Marines still feel a little weak against the others. I5 is never gonna be as useful as T5![/QUOTE]
Many rationalizations can be made, but in the end it comes down to style. Not balance. Not fluff. Nor realism. It's a matter of style, both of gameplay and aesthetics.
Then there's the matter of convention and tradition; The consistent arbitration of which units do traditionally get what. Assault marines didn't use to get flamers, much less meltaguns, and now they do. Raptors were at the time a departure in that respect. It's just business as usual, and the usual business is a process of evolution.
But that leads to the question, are all members of the World Eaters legion Berzerkers? Sure they are all devoted to Khorne, but Khorne cares not where the blood flows, just as long as it flows. I'm sure that the bulk of the World Eaters would be Berzerkers but there would still be other units who have continued using other wargear and strategies since the Heresy such as Terminator Armour, Jump Packs and Bikes. What about World Eater Havoks with Plasma Cannons or even just Plasmaguns?
The psycho-lobotomization procedure was also only ever really meant to alter emotions and remove fear from Berzerkers, resulting in them feeling nothing but rage. It's effect on their intelligence would only be because they think of little else than spilling blood and collecting skulls. It is still quite possible to spill blood with a burst of heavy bolter fire...
Speaking of Chaos using Plasma Cannons: in the Space Marine game, just about anytime you encounter Chaos Marines, one or more of them has a Plasma Cannon. They should not just be available for Dreads and Obliterators, but Predators and Landraiders should be able to have them mounted too along with TL or single Plasmaguns...
I believe that the Inferno bolts used by Thousand Sons troops were intended as a way to make up for their lack of other special weapons. There isn't really a problem with that, especially when in combination with the powers an Aspiring Sorceror can take (such as Bolt of Change) to offer other fire options to the squads. What doesn't make sense would be a total absence of Rubric Havoks with heavy weapons. Same goes for Noise Marine Havoks, however they have existed in previous codexes and could take sonic weaponry in place of standard Marine guns...
Last edited by bobafett_h; 21-04-2012 at 23:54.
Everyone Dies. It's the final and only lasting Justice. There's no greater good than Justice; It is said correctly that law exists not for the Just but for the unjust, I bow to no one and I give service only for cause...
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