Codex: Chaos Legions rumours

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

I'm confused can one not take ordinary Havocs in god specific armies? Or is this one of those ridiculous I need explicit rules for my World Eater Havocs.......

I think the problem is that there are different rules for the Legions and then for others that are marked in the same way. If GW got rid of the distinction between that they would save themselves a lot of hassle. Of course, that still gives you a massive problem with the Thousand Sons as it's probably to much to hope for that they get redone and be made more interesting/Tzeentchian, and at the moment they are unsuitable for representing Tzeentch worshippers.

[KarlPedder]

I think the problem is that there are different rules for the Legions and then for others that are marked in the same way. If GW got rid of the distinction between that they would save themselves a lot of hassle. Of course, that still gives you a massive problem with the Thousand Sons as it's probably to much to hope for that they get redone and be made more interesting/Tzeentchian, and at the moment they are unsuitable for representing Tzeentch worshippers.

I take it you mean like the effect of giving a character model a mark as opposed to the cult versions if so again this IMO is more the player just being pedantic. Bezerker model parts/Combined with biker parts=WE Bikers why is it so essential that they have the +1A that Bezerkers do?

[theDarkGeneral]

Word Bearers also had the first Possessed, and use them extensively in their fighting forces.

As for World Eater Bikers...it's not just the +1 Attack we want, but the WS(5), Furious Charge and Fearless! Throw in some "Axes of Khorne" and now you have a true World Eater biker squad!

Now here's a thought...say under the "big 4" entry they had squad upgrades that moved their slots? Examples;
*Berzerkers upgrade to Bikes, move to Fast Attack.
*Thousand Sons upgrade to Terminator Armor, move to Elite.
*Death Guard upgrade to Jump Packs, move to Fast Attack.
*Emperor's Children upgrade extra heavy weapons, move to Heavy Support.

This would allow an all World Eater Army, while keeping options open for unit types.

How would this work for Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers & Black Legion? They'd all be much cheaper from the start, and perhaps different rules governing their Legion type, maybe something like;

*Iron Warriros: Tank Hunters
*Alpha Legion: Infiltrators
*Night Lords: Stealth
*Word Bearers: Stubborn
*Black Legion: Re-roll all failed LD tests.

[Rick Blaine]

That's about a million billion times more complicated than having Mark/Cult upgrades for every unit.

[Graystoak]

I like what the Dark General is saying. You just have one Khorne Berzerker entry but it can be used to create a troop or fast attack unit. Saves having loads of army list entries.

Alternatively you just bring marks of chaos back into play but make them more detailed. For example, mark of Khorne gives you +1A, +1WS and furious charge. Make it available to chosen, terminators, bikers and possessed and that's all your world eater options. Similarly mark of Nurgle gives you +1T, -1I and FNP etc...
You could even keep icons too but they'd be cheaper and have a more general effect.

Isn't that simpler?

[Gingerwerewolf]

Now here's a thought...say under the "big 4" entry they had squad upgrades that moved their slots? Examples;
*Berzerkers upgrade to Bikes, move to Fast Attack.
*Thousand Sons upgrade to Terminator Armor, move to Elite.
*Death Guard upgrade to Jump Packs, move to Fast Attack.
*Emperor's Children upgrade extra heavy weapons, move to Heavy Support.

Is this a clue as to what is going to happen or an idea of your own?

All the Background talks about Mortarion leading the Deathguard to eschew Bikes, Rhino's and Jump Packs. To me those sort of upgrades sound wrong. It wasnt what he taught

However his "Fast Attack" was to teleport Terminators into the enemy buildings. And the Deathguard had more Terminators than you could shake a stick at.

And on the rules side, giving them additional equipment does not automatically change their force chart. It is more how well they fulfil the role. A Khorne Berserker on a Bike or a Jump Pack is fantastic, as their imagery and tactics fulfil the role of Fast Attack. However just giving a Plague Marine a Jump Pack doesnt miraculously change the slow moving warriors into Fast Attack.

Look at the Reasoning with the Blood Angels having assault Squads as a Troops choice: The favoured position of a Blood Angel is one of fast attack. This doesnt mean that they do not follow the Codex Astartes and have more Assault Squads it just means that when they suffer losses, the Assault Squads are the easiest to refil with willing recruits and so are at greater strength.

[Soldado]

How about the old rule (for WE) 'the unit have the Rage & FC when within 12" of an enemy model' as army wide rule? And there you have WE havocs, aka Teeth of Khorne. Just a guessing/wishlisting, not an actual rumour.

[Scribe of Khorne]

Is this a clue as to what is going to happen or an idea of your own?

All the Background talks about Mortarion leading the Deathguard to eschew Bikes, Rhino's and Jump Packs. To me those sort of upgrades sound wrong. It wasnt what he taught

However his "Fast Attack" was to teleport Terminators into the enemy buildings. And the Deathguard had more Terminators than you could shake a stick at.

And on the rules side, giving them additional equipment does not automatically change their force chart. It is more how well they fulfil the role. A Khorne Berserker on a Bike or a Jump Pack is fantastic, as their imagery and tactics fulfil the role of Fast Attack. However just giving a Plague Marine a Jump Pack doesnt miraculously change the slow moving warriors into Fast Attack.

Look at the Reasoning with the Blood Angels having assault Squads as a Troops choice: The favoured position of a Blood Angel is one of fast attack. This doesnt mean that they do not follow the Codex Astartes and have more Assault Squads it just means that when they suffer losses, the Assault Squads are the easiest to refil with willing recruits and so are at greater strength.

I think you are reading too much into things. There comes a point where the designers must choose, do we slave everyone to fluff (that is ever changing) or do we allow the game to be played as the players see fit?

If I want Havocs in my World Eaters, I should be allowed to do so, its a HUGE universe.

If I want Death Guard with Bikes, I should be able to do so, you figure a Death Guard marine just would never use a bike even if tactically it made sense at the time? Silly.

Everyone has their own comfort level on the fluff - gameplay spectrum, a codex should lean toward gameplay first, always.

[Sevaris]

Look at the Reasoning with the Blood Angels having assault Squads as a Troops choice: The favoured position of a Blood Angel is one of fast attack. This doesnt mean that they do not follow the Codex Astartes and have more Assault Squads it just means that when they suffer losses, the Assault Squads are the easiest to refil with willing recruits and so are at greater strength.

I'm not exactly sure where you got your information from there. The Space Marine's codex astartes and vanilla marine concepts are what led to the structure of the FoC. That said, it has evolved beyond that. When Crowe is leading a Grey Knight army, Purifiers are still "Elite," but they are so many in number that they may in fact be the core of the army (represented by filling the "troop" FoC slot). Likewise, Blood Angels assault squads are still "Fast Attack," but they are so prevalent in Blood Angels tactica and legion doctrine that they fulfill the troop FoC slot.

[BrainFireBob]

However his "Fast Attack" was to teleport Terminators into the enemy buildings. And the Deathguard had more Terminators than you could shake a stick at.

I've never seen this fluff. I want a source cite, because I suspect this is something you concluded instead of something actually in the fluff.

[DuskRaider]

I've also read that Death Guard used TDA extensively (along with Mark III armor, which is technically in between Terminator & Power Armor, armor wise), can't remember where though.

[The Dude]

Can't help but notice we're talking about the rumoured contents of the 6th edition boxed set again. I have asked for that discussion to be taken to the appropriate threads, as it does not pertain to the Codex release.

All posts pertaining to the contents of 6th edition have been moved here. Please keep discussion there.

Thank you for understanding.

The Dude
The Warseer Inquisition

[Dazza612]

I have been following this thread fairly regularly and there seems to be a lot of debate over the cult based legions (world eaters, emperor's children, thousand sons and death guard)! Does that mean the others are going to miss out on stuff like special terminators? Iron warriors uses a lot of terminators for instance prob just as much as death guard and more than world eaters!

[Soldado]

Source? :P

[MajorWesJanson]

Can't help but notice we're talking about the rumoured contents of the 6th edition boxed set again. I have asked for that discussion to be taken to the appropriate threads, as it does not pertain to the Codex release.

All posts pertaining to the contents of 6th edition have been moved here. Please keep discussion there.

Thank you for understanding.

The Dude
The Warseer Inquisition

Ironically, I tend to miss that thread completely, as it is up in the stickied section.

[Barghest]

Frankly, I think that the easiest way (relatively speaking) is to have HQ choices make army-wide changes, kind of like Space Marine special characters do with Chapter Tactics. For example, every unit starts out with the Mark of Chaos Undivided, with the exception of things like Raptors and Obliterators. Then you can give Typhus (for example) the special rule Death Guard: All units in the army exchange the Mark of Chaos Undivided with the Mark of Nurgle. Toss in a vanilla HQ choice (say, Death Guard Plague Lord) who uses the some rule for those who want to use their Legions without using a SC, and you're good. Plague Marines, Plague Terminators, et cetera.

The downsides? Problems with fluff, for one. I used Death Guard as an example because they didn't use certain weapons (heavy bolters are the only thing that come to mind). Secondly, that's a lot of HQ choices. If every Legion gets a SC AND a generic HQ, that's 18 choices (I know my maff). For the life of me I just can't think of how they'd give each Legion an equal and fair amount of coverage. I kind of like the "mini-'dex" that we had in the old Codex, but even then not all Legions were created equal.

[Scribe of Khorne]

I have been following this thread fairly regularly and there seems to be a lot of debate over the cult based legions (world eaters, emperor's children, thousand sons and death guard)! Does that mean the others are going to miss out on stuff like special terminators? Iron warriors uses a lot of terminators for instance prob just as much as death guard and more than world eaters!

Terminators
Cult Terminators
Legion Terminators
Cult Legion Terminators

Increasing in cost and power each time, would be awesome. You want a rock of terminators? Death Guard it is! You want to kill stuff for eternity? World Eater. You want to be popping tanks/bunkers like crazy, Iron Warriors.

I just see it as a natural evolution, but then I am obviously biased.

[totgeboren]

Terminators
Cult Terminators
Legion Terminators
Cult Legion Terminators

Increasing in cost and power each time, would be awesome. You want a rock of terminators? Death Guard it is! You want to kill stuff for eternity? World Eater. You want to be popping tanks/bunkers like crazy, Iron Warriors.

I just see it as a natural evolution, but then I am obviously biased.

Please tell me how your opponent is supposed to be able to tell them apart? What is the visual difference between a Cult Terminator and a Cult Legion Terminator?
I think 5 types of terminators is quite sufficient for any codex. :P
There are only so many tactics you can employ whilst walking around in a mini-battletank. The operational difference between an IW terminator and a WB terminator would be incredibly small I would imagine.

What I hope, if the option of making say WE Havocs is given, is that the upgrade cost is balanced for the unit.
Having WE rules is much more useful for Raptors or bikes than for Havocs, so I hope they are not as lazy as they were with the current codex and make everyone pay the same for say an Icon of Khorne. It's kinda like the phenomena with the current raptor plasma pistols. Why would anyone take them when a meltagun is better in every single way, and cheaper? I see the same phenomena with icons, where it is much more useful for some units, but cost the same for all.

[Graystoak]

I have been following this thread fairly regularly and there seems to be a lot of debate over the cult based legions (world eaters, emperor's children, thousand sons and death guard)! Does that mean the others are going to miss out on stuff like special terminators? Iron warriors uses a lot of terminators for instance prob just as much as death guard and more than world eaters!

I don't anybody wants to see the other legions miss out but most of us (I think?), feel they are already covered by the basic codex entries. Personally I'd like to see these legions get the same treatment as they had in the previous Codex. A page listing a few special rules, maybe a HQ entry and adjusted army roster is all they need. If the rumurs are to be believed they'll prob get a little more than that.

[KarlPedder]

I just think folks have to be realistic....your not going to get the kind of treatment for 9 Legions + 5 powers in a single book thats going to do the kind of justice that people are hoping for. I think they will more or less follow the trend they always have try and give you the ability to play a mono power (including undivided) or a combined powers list. At best on top of this we get new SCs for every legion that doesn't have one and those characters apply Legion traits similar to chapter tactics along with some case by case FOC manipulation.