Codex: Chaos Legions rumours

[Cheexsta]

Exactly my thoughts. If you think about it, it'd even be fluffy if they kept them elites; Cult units would be interested in spreading their god's work, not standing around holding some random communication beacon like a common troop .

That's a bit flippant, but I don't think it will be bad for Cult legions. 6th will likely change army makeups in some way, so basing it off 5th perceptions isn't useful. Also, as IcedAnimals noted, you don't need fully Cult troops to make a fluffy Cult army; the Thousand Sons using Cultists makes a ton of sense, and I'm surprised I hadn't thought of that before. That, combined with a more robust Marks system, would mean you don't really need Cults as troops.

I see two problems with that point of view:

1. World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Death Guard are composed entirely of Cult units. True, there's the whole "warband" composition of Chaos armies in fluff at the moment, but consider that the skirmish level of 40k could very easily represent the size of a small warband from those Cults. It would not make sense that the only warbands of any real size are led by what many consider "outcasts" from those Legions.

2. As they are, Cult units are not deserving of an Elites slot. They're good as Troops, but they cannot stand up to the Elites choices of most other MEq armies.

The way I see it happening is that the fluff is going to be retconned to make Cult troops to marked CSM what Chosen are to unmarked/undivided CSM. The Marks of Chaos will probably make regular units similar to how Cult units are now, while the actual Cult units will be more like the elite version of those, which would tie in with TDG's speculation that Berzerkers could get rending (or some other rule for Chainaxes), for example. It would also make Wes's suggestion that Cult Terminators could be an upgrade for Cult units make more sense.

[Theocracity]

I see two problems with that point of view:

1. World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Death Guard are composed entirely of Cult units. True, there's the whole "warband" composition of Chaos armies in fluff at the moment, but consider that the skirmish level of 40k could very easily represent the size of a small warband from those Cults. It would not make sense that the only warbands of any real size are led by what many consider "outcasts" from those Legions.

I thought the opinion was that not all World Eaters are Berserkers. I hear about people asking for WE units with Bolters; are they asking for a unit with a Berserker's assault ability also be able to do everything a normal marine does? If so, how much are they willing to pay for that on a single wound model? I don't see why a properly implemented Mark system can't replicate that. Similarly, all DG may be Plague Marines but that can be easily represented as having different levels of blessing from Nurgle, as long as the Mark system can replicate a similar attribute. And as mentioned, Thousand Sons can be done using Rubric Marines as Elites and Cultists as troops. Add in vehicles or other units that don't use standard Marines and that looks fluffy to me.

2. As they are, Cult units are not deserving of an Elites slot. They're good as Troops, but they cannot stand up to the Elites choices of most other MEq armies.

The way I see it happening is that the fluff is going to be retconned to make Cult troops to marked CSM what Chosen are to unmarked/undivided CSM. The Marks of Chaos will probably make regular units similar to how Cult units are now, while the actual Cult units will be more like the elite version of those, which would tie in with TDG's speculation that Berzerkers could get rending (or some other rule for Chainaxes), for example. It would also make Wes's suggestion that Cult Terminators could be an upgrade for Cult units make more sense.

Well, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to argue about things as they are, as we're looking at the way things will change. Your idea makes a general amount of sense, though I'd prepare to pay the point cost for the things you're getting.

[daboarder]

I thought the opinion was that not all World Eaters are Berserkers. I hear about people asking for WE units with Bolters; are they asking for a unit with a Berserker's assault ability also be able to do everything a normal marine does? If so, how much are they willing to pay for that on a single wound model? I don't see why a properly implemented Mark system can't replicate that. Similarly, all DG may be Plague Marines but that can be easily represented as having different levels of blessing from Nurgle, as long as the Mark system can replicate a similar attribute. And as mentioned, Thousand Sons can be done using Rubric Marines as Elites and Cultists as troops. Add in vehicles or other units that don't use standard Marines and that looks fluffy to me.

All world eaters ARE berserkers, not all berserkers use chain axe and pistols. some probably even get off shooting massive cannon shells into their enemies heads.

[Theocracity]

All world eaters ARE berserkers, not all berserkers use chain axe and pistols. some probably even get off shooting massive cannon shells into their enemies heads.

But how much are you willing to pay for having a Berserker-equivalent model that can do anything a normal CSM can do, points wise? Don't you think that if theres a robust mark system, you'd be able make a less-expensive and still fluffy army without resorting to every unit being a variation on the 'Khorne Berserker' unit entry.

[Cheexsta]

I thought the opinion was that not all World Eaters are Berserkers. I hear about people asking for WE units with Bolters; are they asking for a unit with a Berserker's assault ability also be able to do everything a normal marine does? If so, how much are they willing to pay for that on a single wound model? I don't see why a properly implemented Mark system can't replicate that. Similarly, all DG may be Plague Marines but that can be easily represented as having different levels of blessing from Nurgle, as long as the Mark system can replicate a similar attribute. And as mentioned, Thousand Sons can be done using Rubric Marines as Elites and Cultists as troops. Add in vehicles or other units that don't use standard Marines and that looks fluffy to me.

Berzerkers with bolters doesn't necessarily mean they should be able to do everything a Tactical Marine can do. Just see the Death Company for an example of how it could be pointed.

World Eaters are indeed all Berzerkers, though not all Berzerkers are World Eaters (this was explicitly stated in the 3.5 codex, p29, and has at least been implied before in the 2nd edition codex).

Well, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to argue about things as they are, as we're looking at the way things will change. Your idea makes a general amount of sense, though I'd prepare to pay the point cost for the things you're getting.

Oh, of course, that was a comment based only on the information that we have. Which is why I made the suppositions that I did

[Rick Blaine]

It will depend on how close a Mark gets you to being "Cult". And none of this "I forget who I worship if the guy with the banner is killed" business.

[New Cult King]

I really hope the cultist bits from TT are true... that could really help distinguish CSM as something unique, not just Evil Marines.

[KarlPedder]

Im sorry I still don't see why you can't kit out Bezerker models with CSM squad or Havoc weapons and play them using the standard rules for those units do you really need Havocs with extra attacks and how about rage lol. Players that want rules of things from in the fluff for no other reason than its "fluffy" rather than it actually bringing something to the army are silly. I need to have Havocs with +S and +A and other stuff for no other reason than my OCD like need to have fluff=rules100%. Idiocy...

[daboarder]

Im sorry I still don't see why you can't kit out Bezerker models with CSM squad or Havoc weapons and play them using the standard rules for those units do you really need Havocs with extra attacks and how about rage lol. Players that want rules of things from in the fluff for no other reason than its "fluffy" rather than it actually bringing something to the army are silly. I need to have Havocs with +S and +A and other stuff for no other reason than my OCD like need to have fluff=rules100%. Idiocy...

and what about death guard?

are we supposed to believe that for some in explicable reason when an CSM is elevated to chosen or even lordship they loose nurgles gifts and become LESS corrupt?

[KarlPedder]

and what about death guard?

are we supposed to believe that for some in explicable reason when an CSM is elevated to chosen or even lordship they loose nurgles gifts and become LESS corrupt?

While I feel marks for character models cover this and are easy to add to character models your complaint is still largely symptomatic of the issue the players inability to reconcile fluff with rules. I'm going to pick on khorne because of the plastic bezerkers so if you convert up bezerker models with heavy weapons, on bikes etc and your force is clearly khorne themed/painted. The lack of specific largely superflous bezerker type rules for your bikers/termies etc is only going to be in the players head. i said much the same thing about human auxilaries in Tau armies any such rules would be so similar to FW rules as to make them pointless and if your really want to field them you can just use FW rule but there are still some folks who have this comlusive NEED for everything that existis in the fluff to have official rules aand models please......

[Rick Blaine]

Im sorry I still don't see why you can't kit out Bezerker models with CSM squad or Havoc weapons and play them using the standard rules for those units do you really need Havocs with extra attacks and how about rage lol. Players that want rules of things from in the fluff for no other reason than its "fluffy" rather than it actually bringing something to the army are silly. I need to have Havocs with +S and +A and other stuff for no other reason than my OCD like need to have fluff=rules100%. Idiocy...

You may not care about logic and consistency but that doesn't make everyone else an idiot.

[Alaric Stormblade]

I think a lot of people are getting away with the whole Legion thing. I would estimate a list, that allows you to field Legions but it won't focus on it.

For the whole marked HQ vs. unique (special) characters: Looking at the Marines Codex, I have to say, my money is with the unique characters, so if you want to play World Eaters, you'll need to field Kharn. I don't like that either - not every Imperial Fists army is led by Lysander, nor is Inquisitor Coteaz the only Inquisitor commanding the Inquisitions own armies - but it's just the way GW decided they want their books to work.
My guess would be, that similar to Chapter Tactics all Chaos Marines get the Mark of Chaos undivided which will be exchanged for the Mark of Khorne if you field Kharn, for example.

For the cultists/traitor guard part. I cannot see this happening at all. In all 5th edition books GW tried to avoid the Eye of Terror content at all costs, so why would they bring back The Lost and the Damned? You're not getting them back. If you want to play them you'll have to convert a counts-as regular Guard army or go to Forgeworld an play the Renegades and Heretics from the Siege of Vraks (you don't even need to buy the book(s) - the 5th edition update is downloadable for free).

[KarlPedder]

You may not care about logic and consistency but that doesn't make everyone else an idiot.

How is adding rules for the sake of rules that in most case would bring little in terms of actually enriching gameplay rather just a completionist sense of satisfaction for certain kinds of players logical?
Especially when such would likely be taking up space that could be used for things that actually add to the GAME.

[mrtn]

For the whole marked HQ vs. unique (special) characters: Looking at the Marines Codex, ... but it's just the way GW decided they want their books to work.

That's how they wanted their books to work four years ago, hopefully they've learned something since.

For the cultists/traitor guard part. I cannot see this happening at all. In all 5th edition books GW tried to avoid the Eye of Terror content at all costs, so why would they bring back The Lost and the Damned? You're not getting them back. If you want to play them you'll have to convert a counts-as regular Guard army or go to Forgeworld an play the Renegades and Heretics from the Siege of Vraks (you don't even need to buy the book(s) - the 5th edition update is downloadable for free).

As usual I prefer to listen to a rumourmancer I trust, such as hastings, instead of someone using "logic" to figure out what GW "ought to do".

[Cheexsta]

How is adding rules for the sake of rules that in most case would bring little in terms of actually enriching gameplay rather just a completionist sense of satisfaction for certain kinds of players logical?
Especially when such would likely be taking up space that could be used for things that actually add to the GAME.

Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but to me - and to a lot of Legions players - the fluff is what makes the 'GAME'. If I'm an 'idiot' because I'd like units that exist in my army's fluff but aren't represented well in the game, then so be it.

[Rick Blaine]

How is adding rules for the sake of rules that in most case would bring little in terms of actually enriching gameplay rather just a completionist sense of satisfaction for certain kinds of players logical?

WYSIWYG, for one thing. Assuming we want a visually coherent force, all guys in a mono-Legion army should look about the same. Now explain to me why that sickly-looking chap with the bolter has Feel No Pain but his twin brother with a Lascannon does not, and neither does their cousin who also has a bolter but hangs out with the Lascannon team, however the second Lascannon guy who hangs out with the bolter guys does.

Especially when such would likely be taking up space that could be used for things that actually add to the GAME.

The game is a piece of trash, fluff and models are the only things that make it worth playing.

[samiens]

So basically, because people have to have every little piece of background represented 'perfectly' with rules in a 'trash' game we should actively make the game more bloated and worse. That's all kinds of illogical.

I have a large deathguard army and personally I can get over the fact that my teemies have an icon rather than are plague marines. Why? Becaus it makes no difference to the look or feel.

Honestly, sometimes I think people actively try to be disappointed. Game balance does matter and if people have to suspend their disbelief a little bit over having a terrible game isn't that better.

Frankly, if things like feel no pain, t5 terminators are included and are appropriately coated the net will fill up with moaning that they're too expensive to take and 'now I can't play my Death Guard'

You can't have everything im afraid

[Hal'jin]

The game is a piece of trash, fluff and models are the only things that make it worth playing.

Wow. Maybe it will surprise you though, that most people actually enjoy playing the game and think it's good. If you don't like it so much then why do you even care what the rules are if it will be a piece of trash anyway? Fluff and models are not affected by feel no pain.

[Valek]

tbh, the game is a piece of trash untill GW learns to write consistent rules in every codex with the same wording...

On the Legion stuff, if they make 1K Sons elite, i damn want them to be uber, and not the scruffy core unit they are now,
Marks need to be better, the Icon stuff is ridiculous ( fluff wise: hey guys the one with or gods icon just died..., lol guess we are not enraged anymore, oh well lets get home...)

As far as i read it now, Chaos will still be massively underpowered, so still waiting to see some MASSIVE rulechanges to even try and be good... Fluff wise i can see it heading in the good direction...

[daboarder]

So basically, because people have to have every little piece of background represented 'perfectly' with rules in a 'trash' game we should actively make the game more bloated and worse. That's all kinds of illogical.

Last I checked the horus heresy and the fate of the chaos legions, the big 5 primarily, was a pretty BIG piece of fluff.....