Codex: Chaos Legions rumours

[StraightSilver]

Saying that Codex: Chaos Legions will replace Codex: Chaos Space Marines is like saying that Codex:Grey Knights would replace Codex:Space Marines.

I don't doubt that one Codex sells way more than another, but it doesn't mean that one shouldbe withdrawn.

Chaos Legions will basically address all of the stuff that is missing from the current CSM Codex, so the two will be radically different.

To say that it will repeat stuff isn't necessarily true, after all the stats for Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines are pretty much identical, but they all have their own Codices.

I don't think people realise just how different Legionnaires are to Chaos Space marines, and this will be reflected in the new book.

[jt.glass]

Really strikes me more as "we know we screwed up the current Codex, new one will be better we have already started work on it but still buy the current Codex as it will remain as renegades....."

I can see that happening, actually, as they do seem to think that the current codex is more focused on renegades, even though it really isn't!*

I just hope that, if these rumours do pan out, the real renegades Codex isn't too far down the pipe. Oh, and that they don't ruin the Legions codex by leaving out things* that really should be in because they are in the current CSM.


jt.

(* Pre-heresy weapons, cult troops, defilers, all but one of the SCs)

[Harbinger]

I did not see it specifically brought up in previous posts, but concerning the Chaos Renegades, is it possible that the "Legions" Codex might be those Marines who have gone over to Chaos in mass (Legions, Corsairs, Renegade Chapters) as opposed to just the nine Legions? The new Land Raider, Land Speeder, and Attack Bike style vehicles mentioned in the round-up could just be Chaos/Spiky version of loyalist vehicles. It is also been mentioend that cultists/slaves of some sort are making a come-back for Alpha Legion and Word Bearers style fo play. And there is still one unknown special character (Huron?). Granted this is based off of the information from those with connections. The rumors seem to satisfy most of the CSM based forces if this is done. You would have Legions, Renegades, and recent Renegades all available.

If the "Renegades" Codex is including Marines, it could be styled off the story of Constantinius or the FW Renegade lists. You have a CSM HQ and Elites with throngs of mutants.

This is just me putting information together and making a guess, but that would seem to be a reasonable way to proceed rather than deal with the issue of reprinting characters and trying to fit the Corairs into a Renegade book or deciding what to do with the current Codex.

[Born Again]

That would be a good way in introduce one of the missing Heresy era Legions?

There will never be a good way to introduce those, the whole point of them is that we will (hopefully) never know details about them.

Quick point, who actually said that the new Chaos Dex would be "Codex Chaos Legions". Was that the same one who said there were going to be 3 Chaos Dexes? Or a Legions and a Renegades? Remember we need to pretty much look at everything anew given the rumour situation.

Cos the thing is, Space Marines are a key selling point of 40k, so if they've got a choice of calling the new book - indeed the first Codex of 6th Edition - Chaos Legions or Chaos Space Marines, I'm thinking they'll go with the latter, purely from a marketing perspective.

It doesn't mean there won't be all the lovely options we've been hoping for for years - after all if there are Cultists/Traitor Guardsmen in the starter box as Hastings has strongly implied it shows some progress in the diversification of the army and the inclusion of older interesting units.

There's no chance that the current Chaos Space Marines book will stay in print once there's a new (probably hardback) one. The new book will include all of the options of the old one and then some. What function would the old book serve?

I could see them doing a White Dwarf Codex for The Lost and the Damned, purely because there is a lot of cross pollination in the list (Imperial Guard units from here, Chaos units from there) with only a few unique choices. It's not really possible to include options for LaTD in the same printed Codex as Chaos Space Marines because it dilutes the theme of the list (Chimeras and Leman Russes and Sentinels alongside Rhinos and Dreadnoughts) and also makes it harder / impossible to balance. Things like Basilisks for Iron Warriors are tricky, because weren't they only included in the list because Pete Haines happened to have converted one up for his personal army?

With Renegade Space Marine Chapters it's even more murky. Are they simply Codex Marines with all of their options - Land Speeders, etc. - plus Summoned Daemons and a smattering of Chaos goodies? Or does a Chapter that turns to Chaos instantly lose the ability to fly their Land Speeders? It's incredibly difficult to represent every possible combination of Chaos forces because they are - at their heart - chaotic.

Anyway, bit of a diatribe but the point is I think the new book will be Codex: Chaos Space Marines, replacing the old one and including all sorts of options to represent the Legions AND Renegades like the Red Corsairs.

+++END TRANSMISSION+++

I did not see it specifically brought up in previous posts, but concerning the Chaos Renegades, is it possible that the "Legions" Codex might be those Marines who have gone over to Chaos in mass (Legions, Corsairs, Renegade Chapters) as opposed to just the nine Legions? The new Land Raider, Land Speeder, and Attack Bike style vehicles mentioned in the round-up could just be Chaos/Spiky version of loyalist vehicles. It is also been mentioend that cultists/slaves of some sort are making a come-back for Alpha Legion and Word Bearers style fo play. And there is still one unknown special character (Huron?). Granted this is based off of the information from those with connections. The rumors seem to satisfy most of the CSM based forces if this is done. You would have Legions, Renegades, and recent Renegades all available.

If the "Renegades" Codex is including Marines, it could be styled off the story of Constantinius or the FW Renegade lists. You have a CSM HQ and Elites with throngs of mutants.

This is just me putting information together and making a guess, but that would seem to be a reasonable way to proceed rather than deal with the issue of reprinting characters and trying to fit the Corairs into a Renegade book or deciding what to do with the current Codex.

This is what I'd like to see. I think there's less of a distinction between the two than people often think. Make it Codex: Chaos Space Marines with Legions focus, then a Codex: Renegades which is more LatD style.

[DeviLution]

30 Jan 2012 - Apart from a lot of discussion about Thousand Sons and the Rubrik, nothing much happened this week. theDarkGeneral did make a post supporting reds8n's assertion that Phil Kelly is writing the book (or finishing it to be more accurate). This leaves us with two fairly strong rumous that Mat Ward is the author and another two caliming it's Phil Kelly. What the truth is remains to be seen.

Well... Simplest solution being the most likely...

Ward started it and Kelly's wrapping it?

~DeviLution

[KarlPedder]

I don't think people realise just how different Legionnaires are to Chaos Space marines, and this will be reflected in the new book.

I'm sorry but no they aren't that different it's like claiming Farsight Enclave need their own Codex seperate from Codex Tau Empire. Could it be done? Yes. Is there enough existing material + room for expansion to make it worthwhile? Sure. Is it nessecary? No.

It's this mindset where people feel that every little flavour of 40k should have some kind of specific mechanical representation. What's worse is when it's applied to every freaking flavour of SM we have enough flavours of SMs with their own rules that you should be able to do a GOOD ENOUGH job of representing them. We don't need specific rules for Rainbow Warrriors.....

[MajorWesJanson]

We don't need specific rules for Rainbow Warrriors.....

Yes, we do.


On topic, the best idea for Chaos Legions is less a sub list of C: CSM and more a refocusing on it. It will not actually be called Chaos Legions, but the next Codex: CSM: will focus more on the Legions and older tech, cult troops, and Legion characters. The current Codex: CSM, or Spiky Codex: Marines, will be revamped to remove the Legion characters, move the cult troops into more elite, less common slots, and add things like cultists and renegades, making it more of a mixed list. then Chaos Daemons would stay as is, essentially. Think Fantasy and their splitting Hordes of Chaos into Warriors, Daemons, and Beastmen. Warriors would be like Legions/CSM, Daemons are Daemons, and Beastmen would be sort of analogus to Renegades, at least older versions of Beastmen before they branched out more and more on their own.

[Scammel]

On topic, the best idea for Chaos Legions is less a sub list of C: CSM and more a refocusing on it. It will not actually be called Chaos Legions, but the next Codex: CSM: will focus more on the Legions and older tech, cult troops, and Legion characters. The current Codex: CSM, or Spiky Codex: Marines, will be revamped to remove the Legion characters, move the cult troops into more elite, less common slots, and add things like cultists and renegades, making it more of a mixed list. then Chaos Daemons would stay as is, essentially. Think Fantasy and their splitting Hordes of Chaos into Warriors, Daemons, and Beastmen. Warriors would be like Legions/CSM, Daemons are Daemons, and Beastmen would be sort of analogus to Renegades, at least older versions of Beastmen before they branched out more and more on their own.

Is this speculation or genuine titbits?

[MajorWesJanson]

Is this speculation or genuine titbits?

Speculation. I haven't had any tidbits since August or so. Sorry.

[The Dude]

Please be more careful with how you present your posts Wes

[Master_Forcide]

I don't think people realise just how different Legionnaires are to Chaos Space marines, and this will be reflected in the new book.

I don't think GW agrees with you.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

..will basically address all of the stuff that is missing from the current CSM Codex, so the two will be radically different.

I don't think people realise just how different Legionnaires are to Chaos Space marines, and this will be reflected in the new book.

You seem very confident in GW's attempts to present rules that relate to fluff. What did you hear to use such absolute wording?

<3 Persi.

[TimLeeson]

What I'm curious about are how the recent trend of Duel-unit kits will effect Chaos Marines. Any rumourmongers willing to tell us wheather there will be any multi-unit kits? you don't have to be specific/precise. I'd be happy to know if there will be any at all as it would be interesting to speculate on.

It would be curious to know though - as they have a lot of potential to expand specific legions, especially if you take the Grey knights kit as a reference point and imagine cult-legion kits done in the same way. I could see GW doing something like this for thousand sons, emperors children and death-guard, not so sure they would for world eaters given they have a plastic kit already. What do other people think? If they were going to do "new" cult specific units, id of thought this would be the most logical way.

[StraightSilver]

I'm sorry but no they aren't that different it's like claiming Farsight Enclave need their own Codex seperate from Codex Tau Empire. Could it be done? Yes. Is there enough existing material + room for expansion to make it worthwhile? Sure. Is it nessecary? No.

It's this mindset where people feel that every little flavour of 40k should have some kind of specific mechanical representation. What's worse is when it's applied to every freaking flavour of SM we have enough flavours of SMs with their own rules that you should be able to do a GOOD ENOUGH job of representing them. We don't need specific rules for Rainbow Warrriors.....

I do understand that there are some things in 40K that don't need to be expanded ad infinitum as your example proves.

However there is a big difference between Chaos Space Marines (Renegades) and Chaos Legionnaires, and this used to be represented in the Codex before last.

GW in their great wisdom (or rather Jervis and Alessio) decided that that particular Codex was way too complicated and as part of their over simplification drive took a chain axe to it and stripped out what was essentially all the best bits.

The intention was to seperate Renegades and Legionnaires and hopefully release a Legions Codex at a later date, as they have said in interviews since.

They realised immediately that the Chaos Space Marines Codex was massively over simplified and set to work straight away to begin planning the Legions Codex.

Chaos Space Marine Renegades are small roving war bands of Chaos Marines who have either spilt from their original Legion (Fabius Bile, Kharn, Ahriman etc), or are Loyalist marines disillusioned with the Imperium who have turned traitor (Huron Blackheart).

Over time they have picked up some influence from Chaos, but are made up of disparate bands of warriors.

Admittedly the curve ball is having Black Legion and Abaddon in the CSM Codex and I am not sure what will happen there.


The Legions however are those who took part in the Heresy and have been fighting the long war ever since.

These are not simple roving war bands engaging in hit and run raid across the Imperium, but the remnants of full Legions.

As an example Iron Warriors have access to artillery (usually Basilisks), Daemon Engines and Dark Mechanicus.

Alpha Legion have bands of cultists or the ability to infiltrate into society.

World Eaters have blood crazed Marines riding Juggernauts into battle.

etc, etc.

All of this used to be represented in the CSM Codex but was removed. The idea is to try to get this flavour back in one way or another.

Chaos players felt very hard done by with the last CSM Codex, they had these differences and they were taken away, what they were left with were closer to Renegades than Legionnaries.

Alessio and Jervis have both sad that they would like the CSM Codex to stay as Renegades, and to release another Codex which would address the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Emperor's Children etc.

I may of course be completely wrong, the next Codex might just be a rehash of the current one and replace it, but that's not what I have heard.

[jubilex]

Alessio and Jervis have both sad

... and they deserve to be both sad.

[StraightSilver]

Oops, Freudian slip maybe!

[Latro_]

The problem with chaos space marines is very simple rules wise. They have as many legions(chapters) as the loyalists and just as much of their own history and traditions to support this (fluff). Death guard 'could' have a codex like blood angels, Iron Warriors 'could' have a codex like space wolves.

The fact is CSM are not as popular as normal space marines, they never have been. In general people like playing the 'good guys' even if that notion in 40k is often a little skewed. Loyal Space marines are the front face of 40k for GW as a brand, this is why they will go out on a limb to support more than one army book, they wont do this with chaos, it would be too much work to maintain. end. of.

Therefore they are (the writers) left with the dilemma of having to fit all this 'stuff' into one book. The previous chaos codex tried to ambitiously account for all of the legions with specific rules for each and to a certain extent it worked but was often seen as 1. to complicated and 2. overpowered/open to abuse.

The current chaos codex totally reversed this idea and decided to take a 'fluff' centric slimmed down on rules approach. e.g. you just have to paint your iron warriors silver and take lots of vindis and 'play fluffy' they dont have much special to break them away from the pack (much like an ironhands player might do with the loyalist codex). This codex has had the effect of disillusioning chaos players as much of the rules were simplified and in doing so underpowered and just plain 'dull'.

In my opinion the new book will (hopefully) try to be a merger of these two styles. I am pretty certain there will be special characters that unlock army options to better represent legions, time and time again this is a common theme with GW, All the way from the current loyalist codex to grey knights you have characters which unlock army styles. I'd probably bet money on this if you could bet on such things.

Other stuff i think for 'certain' we can expect picking psy two powers from a page of 7-10 in much the same way as most codex's coming out, a couple of new units, a swathe of new wargear/return of gifts (probably similar to SW oaths).

Other than that i doubt any of use can guess what the unit changes will be like, i think we might get a bit of a shock as to how little major changes there will be, i exepect subtle options/changes which result in new doors/army options being open/viable.

[Portentous]

However there is a big difference between Chaos Space Marines (Renegades) and Chaos Legionnaires, and this used to be represented in the Codex before last.

Chaos Space Marine Renegades are small roving war bands of Chaos Marines who have either spilt from their original Legion (Fabius Bile, Kharn, Ahriman etc), or are Loyalist marines disillusioned with the Imperium who have turned traitor (Huron Blackheart).

Over time they have picked up some influence from Chaos, but are made up of disparate bands of warriors.

The Legions however are those who took part in the Heresy and have been fighting the long war ever since.

All of this used to be represented in the CSM Codex but was removed. The idea is to try to get this flavour back in one way or another.

...I may of course be completely wrong, the next Codex might just be a rehash of the current one and replace it, but that's not what I have heard.

Here's the thing - the 3.5 edition CSM Codex, the one that best represented the individual Legions, was actually a pretty labyrinthine and restrictive book. You often had to look at 3 different pages to confirm the rules of any one unit (as there was the Bestiary section, the Wargear section and then the various Books of the Chaos Powers). And whilst it added all the great Legion-specific weapons that are currently missing (sonic weaponry for Dreadnoughts, etc.), it also added caveats and limitations which were verging on the draconian (i.e. Death Guard aren't allowed to use missile launchers or Rhinos because Mortarion didn't trust them).

A lot of those options could be added into a unified Chaos Space Marines list, from which you could either build a mixed army to represent Renegades (a "disparate band" as you said), or you could limit yourself to make a more fluffy Legion-focused army.

These are not simple roving war bands engaging in hit and run raid across the Imperium, but the remnants of full Legions.

Weeeell technically the World Eaters ARE simple roving war bands, NOT a unified Legion. That whole Skalathrax thing when Kharn earned the nickname "the Betrayer".

As an example Iron Warriors have access to artillery (usually Basilisks), Daemon Engines and Dark Mechanicus.

Alpha Legion have bands of cultists or the ability to infiltrate into society.

World Eaters have blood crazed Marines riding Juggernauts into battle.

etc, etc.

Recent rumours have confirmed that an Iron Warriors character with servo-harness has been sighted, and new Daemon Engines have been rumoured as well. The only reason Iron Warriors had access to Basilisks was that Pete Haines converted one for his army, and it "stuck." They could just as easily use Vindicators and have some Bombardment ability like the SM Chapter Master / IG Master of the Ordnance to represent this.

As for cultists, Hastings has confirmed that Cultists/Traitor Guardsmen will be in the new 40k starter game, so they will most likely be a basic Troops choice for ALL Chaos Space Marines armies (which is how they should have been according to the established background anyway - ALL of the Legions use human auxiliaries). The special Alpha Legion infiltration / disruption tactics could just be an army-wide rule granted by a Special Character, but it's unlikely they'll leave it out.

Brazen Knights have also been rumoured - Berserkers on Juggernauts - so again here's hoping that all these cool units are included in the new book, as well as a drove more - Dreadclaws, Fliers, new vehicle variants, etc.

From a branding perspective it makes more sense for all Chaos Space Marines to come under the "Chaos Space Marines" banner (on the website, for example) rather than being split into "Legions" and "Renegades", and a new Codex crammed with options could adequately represent a huge variety of Legions or Renegade warbands.

It's only really Lost and the Damned armies that are hard to fit in because they are essentially Imperial Guard plus Daemons plus some CSM units. But as the new CSM Dex seems certain to include Cultists/Traitor Guardsmen as a basic choice it should be possible to make a horde of cultists from it.

[Flatline]

On topic, the best idea for Chaos Legions is less a sub list of C: CSM and more a refocusing on it. It will not actually be called Chaos Legions, but the next Codex: CSM: will focus more on the Legions and older tech, cult troops, and Legion characters.

The current Codex: CSM, or Spiky Codex: Marines, will be revamped to remove the Legion characters, move the cult troops into more elite, less common slots, and add things like cultists and renegades, making it more of a mixed list.

I agree that this would be the best option, especially as the revamped 'codex spiky marines' would be somewhat like the Lost and the Damned.

Of course since we have agreed that this would be the best thing that could happen GW are almost certainly going to do something else.

I do think Latro has made a couple of good calls on what we will see in the new codexes. I tend to think of the armies of Chaos being the personal forces of their leaders. As such it makes sense, it is almost required in fact, that the composition of those forces reflect the personality of their leader. If I was writing a Chaos codex I would require an HQ choice with the mark of Khorne to unlock Khorne Berserkers as troop choices, for example.

[Polaria]

It's this mindset where people feel that every little flavour of 40k should have some kind of specific mechanical representation. What's worse is when it's applied to every freaking flavour of SM we have enough flavours of SMs with their own rules that you should be able to do a GOOD ENOUGH job of representing them. We don't need specific rules for Rainbow Warrriors.....

I'm with you. Yet we already know GW disagrees strongly with you and thus we have different codices for green, black, red and slightly off-blue marines... So basically having different codices for different flavours of chaos marines wouldn't really surprise me.

Hell, even the whole 6th edition being set into 30K, kicking all the xenos armies out of the game and being about nothing else than different colors of marines fighting other different colors of marines wouldn't surprise me right now.