An idea to fix magic?

[Don Zeko]

If I were re-doing things, I'd errata the uber spells and make magic resistance more valuable. Allow ward saves and magic resistance against pit/dwellers/purple sun, stipulate that units with mindrazor use their unmodified strength for armor save modifiers, and allow magic resistant units to either get a save against hexes and other non-damaging spells or simply return to the old system of bonus dispel dice. There's no reason to overhaul the whole phase or to add a bunch of complex new rules. The next round of army books will almost certainly nerf or remove the focused rumination, sacrificial dagger, etc. Just fix what's broken and leave the rest.

[The Low King]

I definatly feel that the key thing is to allow LOS vs all template spells

[Bodysnatcher]

I definatly feel that the key thing is to allow LOS vs all template spells

You do....

[Crovax20]

Well I think the problem lies mostly in the spells being a tad too powerfull. Lets face it, the new armybook lores don't seem to be featuring these ZOMG spells. Of course this doesn't fix the BRB lores, but the armybook lores show that up till now GW has learned from their mistakes in the BRB lores.

Now if only they would tweak them, but GW won't do that untill 9th edition.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Sounds extremely potent. A lot of hexes have a secondary test as well. Two chances to avoid what can be quite hard to cast spells.

Potent indeed but Magic Resistance is very expensive and almost useless at the moment. If we're talking about a hero's entire magic item allowance for magic resistance then it ought to be good.

Of course, if it proved to be that terrific then it could be applied only to the models with magic resistance (in most cases just the character) although that probably would make it pretty useless again except on lone characters unless the MR applied to the whole unit.

[theunwantedbeing]

Any time a wizard miscasts, after the spell goes off, but before rolling on the chart, he suffers 1 hit that ignores armor with a strength equal to the number of dice he used to cast the spell.

Taking a wound on a roll equal to or below the number of dice used to cast the spell would make more sense. Channelling more magic means a greater likelihood of being overwhelmed afterall.

This makes miscasting much more dangerous to people who want to throw a ton of dice at the problem, but not so bad for those who get the occasional total power from 2 or 3 dice. What do people think?

I'de prefer my alteration to your rule.
Also I'de like to alter the way damage is rolled to the same manner, saves get ignored. This means more dice rolled generates a word dispel result and being a tzeentch mage toting a 1+ save and a 3+ ward is not largely immune to miscast damage unless he rolls extremely low on the table.

[samw]

Now if only they would tweak them, but GW won't do that untill 9th edition.

You say this, but it was done in 6th when they realised they'd made Heavens ridiculously good. A white dwarf article and some online rules could fix it easy.

Honestly though, I think this is a meta game issue. Because you can never(ish) have more than 12 dice now, but you can get to that level a lot faster, magic dominates at lower point values. As the point values get bigger, the impact of magic gets smaller.

[Petey]

Potent indeed but Magic Resistance is very expensive and almost useless at the moment. If we're talking about a hero's entire magic item allowance for magic resistance then it ought to be good.

Of course, if it proved to be that terrific then it could be applied only to the models with magic resistance (in most cases just the character) although that probably would make it pretty useless again except on lone characters unless the MR applied to the whole unit.

Cool, I really like your ideas, but how about I offer a different way to do it.

MR reduce the str of the attack, or increase your stat for test against stat spells. I.e. if you have MR2, then fireball would be S2 against you, and if you have MR3 but I2 you test on a 5 or less for spells require the initiative test.

I don't like anything that doesn't allow a save of any kind, especially with instant kill rules. I also feel instant kill has no place in fantasy (for Characters anyway)

[Jericho]

Hooray, another "fix something that isn't broken" thread.

7th edition was silly, with some armies getting literally DOZENS of dice per turn above 2k points, with the opponent looking at typically 4-6 DD to slow them down. Not fun. Even with my Tzeentch WoC army, I felt like a dink when I brought 9PD to the table. For the record, I rolled S11 Gateway exactly once with that army, ever. And it wasn't a big deal.

With a few exceptions (due to combinations of items or other special abilities), I have no issue with the current magic phase. I wouldn't mind seeing an extra penalty for wizards that cast way beyond their power level (i.e., L2 casting on 5 dice), but that's about it.

Magic at the moment is still very high risk/high reward, as you can fail to roll good spells, fail to roll good Winds of Magic at a crucial time, roll 6's and 1's at the wrong time and explode your own units, etc. By spending a ton of points, you can minimize some of these risks... but every time someone is talking about spending on multiple wizard lords or something silly I just ask them how many models they are leaving behind. 400+ point Chaos Sorc Lord? That's 80 Marauders/24 Warriors/10 Chaos Knights... you see what I mean. You really have to be sure about what you're doing to play that way.

[Petey]

Taking a wound on a roll equal to or below the number of dice used to cast the spell would make more sense. Channelling more magic means a greater likelihood of being overwhelmed afterall.



I'de prefer my alteration to your rule.
Also I'de like to alter the way damage is rolled to the same manner, saves get ignored. This means more dice rolled generates a word dispel result and being a tzeentch mage toting a 1+ save and a 3+ ward is not largely immune to miscast damage unless he rolls extremely low on the table.

In all honesty, I like yours just as much as I like our idea, though I don't agree about the saves. I can see not allowing armor saves, but wards imply that you specifically prepared to save yourself from hostile magic, in my book. We should always avoid any spell/effect/element/power that removes ward saves in this game.

[DaemonReign]

No, the vocal minority cannot deal with the change. 8th ed magic is a very balanced fix over 7th ed magic.

6th spells deal with Hordes as a legit counter. If you don't want to loose 15 Chaos Warriors in one fell swoop don't take 30-man units.

People should learn to play and improve their skills instead of complain something is broken.

^ This!
Damn it.

We should always avoid any spell/effect/element/power that removes ward saves in this game.

Wha..? No. There should be a countermeasure for everything. The so-called über-spells of 8th balance the Hordes that balance the Warmachines that balance the Monsters.

I've seen quite alot of Purple Suns etcetera flying around in the many games I've played in 8th Ed and all this whining is just so uncalled for. They're not the autowin-buttons people make them out to be, at all.

So my advice, though I am sure it'll go unheeded, is to simply put your efforts into something better than figuring out problems where there are none.

[Bodysnatcher]

Since the powerscroll nerf I've seen precisely one effective use of purple sun. Pit of shades is much more reliable even if significantly less devastating.

[fusionmonkey]

what most tournaments do is very simple

12pd limit per phase not at once so if you roll a 12 no more dice from slann rumination or death for the enire magic phase, not just at once.

and a look out sir for gate way, 13th and dwellers

concerning dwellers, this is what annoys me most on a 4+ i could loose my wizard lord, it is silly and is toatally luck based and will effect the rest of the game if you fail.

[Lord Inquisitor]

People should learn to play and improve their skills instead of complain something is broken.

So my advice, though I am sure it'll go unheeded, is to simply put your efforts into something better than figuring out problems where there are none.

At some point I need to make a copy-paste response to this argument.

Maybe some of the people who don't like the current dynamic actually know how to play the game and aren't whining because their deathstar doesn't autowin?

Cannons don't do a good job of limiting monsters. They completely obliterate any monster - particularly a ridden monster. We don't see enough giants or thundertusks or dragons or chariots or whatever except in certain cases (e.g. hydra, abombs, bells) where they actually get a save.

Similarly megadeath spells aren't required for game balance. I've been to a GT recently where they simply banned purple sun, 13th, the whole lore of shadow, etc. The game didn't fall apart. Deathstars didn't run rampant.

I can win with the current rules. Saying "yeah, you should stop whining and learn to play" doesn't apply - I do win thank you very much, yet I still feel the game could be better if it were more about tactical play and less about throwing 6 dice at the uberspell of choice. There ARE issues with 8th ed. It is far from perfect. The fact that the armybook Lores are dramatically less powerful than the rulebook Lores really suggests that the game designers agree with me.

[Bodysnatcher]

concerning dwellers, this is what annoys me most on a 4+ i could loose my wizard lord, it is silly and is toatally luck based and will effect the rest of the game if you fail.

It's not just a 4+. The opponent has to get close enough to target the unit with your wizard lord in (or have a massive excess of PD for the long range version), manage to get it off, not have it dispelled (or not get blown up by the miscast - trade a level 4 for a level 4 anyone?) and THEN you get to take a strength test.
A halfway house may be, you can give characters a look out sir by having a rank and file member automatically fail the required test. So it's slightly less of a no brainer.

[Gradek]

If you don't want to loose 15 Chaos Warriors in one fell swoop don't take 30-man units.

People should learn to play and improve their skills instead of complain something is broken.

So fine, I take 15 chaos warriors instead of 30. Now the 13th not only kills my unit, but it gives him another unit too. I don't get why some people simply cannot admit that some spells are overpowered. If you want to play with magic, there is this great card game for that.

[Kudzu]

yet I still feel the game could be better if it were more about tactical play

Then why in the world are you playing 8th at all?

Edit:

Magic is fine as it is. If you put the points into making your army have a solid magic phase you are rewarded for it. (Most of the time, at least. I've had a few games where I never saw more than 4 dice in my power pool.)

[Lord Inquisitor]

Then why in the world are you playing 8th at all?

It may seem strange, but I am capable of liking a game without thinking it perfect beyond any possibility of improvement.

I think especially with the new books, 8th ed is the best edition of Warhammer so far. I love this game, I've been playing it for 20 years. I spend far too much of my free time on it, or discussing it. Yet I am capable of rationally discussing its faults.

I don't get this mentality of "like 8th as it is or get out".

[Spiney Norman]

I'm not convinced there is a problem, but then I play Night Goblins (and the Little Waaagh lore is nicely balanced) or Nurgle Daemons (and those are not considered broken in 8th ed) ...

I did play against Empire, High Elves and Tomb Kings, and on the very rare occasion where a Vortex of Doom was launched, it didn't reach my lines and I dispelled it in my own magic phase ...

Chucking 6 dice at a spell and hoping for an IF just doesn't happen in my gaming group ... the most dice launched were 4

I routinely throw 5 or 6 dice at a spell, but thats mainly because I play tomb Kings and with their lore I'm very lucky to have more than 2 spells that are useful/worth casting on any given turn.

I also play greenskins and I think the little waaagh! lore is well balanced if used alongside the big waaagh! lore, but its a little weak on its own. Like the Tomb King lore it lacks any serious threat spell (even bad moon isn't a must-dispel) but the orc lore has at least 3.

Most of the lores in 8th work on the basis of 1 major threat and a collection of fairly minor, but useful buffs/hexes/minor damage spells, basically you force your opponents hand by making them save their dispel dice to counter the major threat and in so doing get your minor spells through.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I will routinely throw 6 dice at bubble Regen for my ogres. It's pretty much SOP for ogres because regen protects both the caster and the unit from the bad effects of most miscasts. I typically see 6-dicing of spells like Pit or Mindrazor or Purple Sun with great regularity (especially against my ogres).

With my daemons or vamps I'm a bit more reserved about it because the caster is more valuable but I do typically run a level 2 flying death caster in my daemons and I will usually 6-dice or not bother with her.