The background that annoys you most

[Penitent Engine]

Like the title says, what's the thing about Fantasy's background that annoys you the most?

For me the big problem is how insanely dangerous the world is! If we go by a standard battlefield, nearly every tree, river, pond, hill, wall, building, etc WILL KILL YOU!

I find it difficult to take this seriously. How are you going to feed a city like Altdorf when cabbages come to life overnight or every third calf turns out to be a warped beast? If the Empire is a series of "islands" amongst endless malevolent forests inhabited by bloodthirsty creatures and spiders the size of a house, how do you maintain trade and contact between cities? How is an economy maintained if there's a major invasion/civil war/marauding monster ravaging any given part of the nation every ten years or so?

Maybe this is part of the reason why Fantasy's background isn't as popular as 40K - sure, they're both as OTT as each other, but 40K's variety and scope saves it from the ultimate silliness that is the Old World.

[Artinam]

The whole 90% tax rate on Bretonnian Peasantry. They wouldn't survive for a year.

I tend to 'interpret' it as a maximum cap on taxes set by Knights. Meaning everyone with a functional brain and a basic grasp of medieval economy knows that Dead/Dying/Weak Peasants do not produce crops and such measures would lead to peasant rebellions (its fighting or dying from starvation.

[quantumcollider]

The whole 90% tax rate on Bretonnian Peasantry. They wouldn't survive for a year.

I tend to 'interpret' it as a maximum cap on taxes set by Knights. Meaning everyone with a functional brain and a basic grasp of medieval economy knows that Dead/Dying/Weak Peasants do not produce crops and such measures would lead to peasant rebellions (its fighting or dying from starvation.

I second this. As well as the fact that every Bretonnian peasant has defects or is a (borderline) inbred. Even though their genepool is much wider than that of the nobility.
And why exactly is every noble a stuck-up, hypocretical, petty tyrant and every peasant a downtrodden, dungcovered wretch?

[Righthandedtwin]

I second this. As well as the fact that every Bretonnian peasant has defects or is a (borderline) inbred. Even though their genepool is much wider than that of the nobility.
And why exactly is every noble a stuck-up, hypocretical, petty tyrant and every peasant a downtrodden, dungcovered wretch?

Lady of the Lake keeps thier blood holy and pure...I suppose it goes back to the Nobles being descendants of the grail companions..so they have a sort of arrogance about thier heritage....if you assume the Lore in the AB is written from the perspective of a noble...or someone in the employ the Noble (I can't think of the name for it but they're comparable to the middle class, not born into a noble family but not poor enough to be peasantry.)

[Athelassan]

I second this. As well as the fact that every Bretonnian peasant has defects or is a (borderline) inbred. Even though their genepool is much wider than that of the nobility.
And why exactly is every noble a stuck-up, hypocretical, petty tyrant and every peasant a downtrodden, dungcovered wretch?

Actually, it's not necessarily the case that the peasants' genepool is larger than that of the nobility. In theory the peasant genepool is much larger, but in reality they are almost all serfs who need their lord's permission to leave their village, which is going to have a very small selection of eligible breeding partners. A couple of generations down the line and everybody's everybody's cousin several times over. The nobility, meanwhile, have potentially the whole of Old World aristocracy and gentry to choose from. They might marry their cousin occasionally, but infrequently enough that they're still maintaining a reasonable degree of genetic diversity. It's different for the urban proletariat and bourgeousie, of course - they're probably less inbred than the nobles.

[quantumcollider]

Actually, it's not necessarily the case that the peasants' genepool is larger than that of the nobility. In theory the peasant genepool is much larger, but in reality they are almost all serfs who need their lord's permission to leave their village, which is going to have a very small selection of eligible breeding partners. A couple of generations down the line and everybody's everybody's cousin several times over. The nobility, meanwhile, have potentially the whole of Old World aristocracy and gentry to choose from. They might marry their cousin occasionally, but infrequently enough that they're still maintaining a reasonable degree of genetic diversity. It's different for the urban proletariat and bourgeousie, of course - they're probably less inbred than the nobles.

If history is anything to go by, it's far more likely that the Bretonnian nobility is far more inbred as they purposely marry marry relatives in order to keep wealth and power inside the family.

Because Bretonnian peasants are so poor, they at least have the luxury of marrying for love. Which usually does not involve a cousin.

Then again, this is the Warhammer universe...

[trotsky]

If history is anything to go by, it's far more likely that the Bretonnian nobility is far more inbred as they purposely marry marry relatives in order to keep wealth and power inside the family.

Because Bretonnian peasants are so poor, they at least have the luxury of marrying for love. Which usually does not involve a cousin.

Then again, this is the Warhammer universe...

you should learn some social history Just because the only political marriages we hear about are in the aristocracy (wherever Roman Empire or 17th century Britain) this does not mean it was limited to them. Marriages for wealth, political advantage and social enhancement happen all the way through society especially as, for most of history, the daughter will have almost no say in who she marriages and often the son doesn’t either. Its therefore a tool for the parents of both familys. This is of cause a huge generalisation- i was just making a point.

On topic. The thing that annoyed me most was reading the history of bretonnia and seeing the feifdoms used to be tribes of horsemen. This means bretonnian society evolved in complete contrast to every known real life equivilent. Part of the reason Knights dominated the battlefeild in Europe was because they were the ones that could afford horses (and armour, and weapons and had the leasure time to train). If everyone used horses then this stark devision would never appear and we wouldnt see loads of men-at-arms tramping around and being oppressed.

[Righthandedtwin]

Like the title says, what's the thing about Fantasy's background that annoys you the most?

For me the big problem is how insanely dangerous the world is! If we go by a standard battlefield, nearly every tree, river, pond, hill, wall, building, etc WILL KILL YOU!

I find it difficult to take this seriously. How are you going to feed a city like Altdorf when cabbages come to life overnight or every third calf turns out to be a warped beast? If the Empire is a series of "islands" amongst endless malevolent forests inhabited by bloodthirsty creatures and spiders the size of a house, how do you maintain trade and contact between cities? How is an economy maintained if there's a major invasion/civil war/marauding monster ravaging any given part of the nation every ten years or so?

Maybe this is part of the reason why Fantasy's background isn't as popular as 40K - sure, they're both as OTT as each other, but 40K's variety and scope saves it from the ultimate silliness that is the Old World.

It's a little over blown there I think pal; if you look at the numberof WARS that happened in the Empire it's not actually that many, the Old World is a big place, it may not look it on a map but it's several times larger than central europe so most of these invasions and civil wars occur in distant areas of the provinces typically involving small villages/mid-sized towns. Large cities rarely get involved and even then during the larger wars the casualities tend to be mostly from the soldiery, just look at Europes bloody history and you'll notice that the number of wars, revolts, invasions isn't that high.

Don't forget as well there is more to FB than just Old World, there is affterall:

Old World
Lustria
Naggaroth
Ulthuan
Brettonia
Albion
Nehekhara
Bad Lands
Dark Lands
The Ancient Giant Lands
The Mountains of Mourn
Arabi
Cathay
Ind
Nippon
Tilea
Estalia
The Dragon Islands
The Southlands
Kurgan Steppes
Hung Steppes
Norsca
Kislev
Chaos Wastes (Northern)
Chaos Wastes (Southern)
Underway
Skaven Blight

And many, many more regions so the population of the Warhammer World is monolithic and can take these constant outbreaks of war here and there or the odd border skirmishes, the AB protray the Warhammer World as in a perpetual state of people dying while the Novels tend to show that there are significant periods of peacetime...so yea take it how you will.

Comparing Warhammer to 40k is a big BIG mistake both in scale and the level of death for in warhammer the death tolls measure in hundreds/thousands/hundreds of thousands...in 40k the Death Tolls come in Millions, Billions, Trillions and the whole "everything kills you" case is equal across the board.

People will like what they like but claiming one is better than the other is a pointless excercise. 40k's current popularity is due to Relic and THQ, the spate of 40k games has launched 40k into pop culture recently thanks to DoW and SM as such a lot of people are coming to the hobby from the games...while FB has a less than steller history of gaming, as yea...when 8th ed is sorted and if they can put a decent game out you'd see the tables turn and WHFB make a return afterall for a long while FB was more widely played than 40k.

[Satan]

For me it's always been the Genevieve stories. I know some people love them, but I really don't.

[Righthandedtwin]

For me it's always been the Genevieve stories. I know some people love them, but I really don't.

I have to second you on this one. Although it's hard competition for SoC. Genevieve wouldn't have been so bad if it wasn't for her being a "Half-vampire" and being portrayed as the heroine in a slash fiction or fanfic, especially the last book with the count/countess...that one really...just...I have no words for it

[Lockjaw]

I have to second you on this one. Although it's hard competition for SoC. Genevieve wouldn't have been so bad if it wasn't for her being a "Half-vampire" and being portrayed as the heroine in a slash fiction or fanfic, especially the last book with the count/countess...that one really...just...I have no words for it

she's a half vampire now? I only ever read drachenfels and the first genevere book, kind of glad now that i didn't keep up with reading

[Athelassan]

she's a half vampire now? I only ever read drachenfels and the first genevere book, kind of glad now that i didn't keep up with reading

No... I don't know what Righthandedtwin was getting at, but at some point Genevieve mentions that there are "truly dead" vampires - who have presumably died and returned to life, and those who haven't, like her. The main differences appear to be that she can cross running water and doesn't look like a rotting corpse.

[Arnizipal]

For me it's always been the Genevieve stories. I know some people love them, but I really don't.

I have to second you on this one. Although it's hard competition for SoC. Genevieve wouldn't have been so bad if it wasn't for her being a "Half-vampire" and being portrayed as the heroine in a slash fiction or fanfic, especially the last book with the count/countess...that one really...just...I have no words for it

I just started on them (about halfway through Drachenfels currently) I so far I find them very well written. Far above the usual Black Library pulp.
Some of the setting doesn't really fit anymore with the current background but I've found no glaring inconsistencies so far (except maybe the open tolerance of vampires in the Empire).

When it comes to novels I personally can't stand Malus Darkblade.
It's just an endless string of gory scenes, battles and weird crap to up the cool factor.

[Righthandedtwin]

I just started on them (about halfway through Drachenfels currently) I so far I find them very well written. Far above the usual Black Library pulp.
Some of the setting doesn't really fit anymore with the current background but I've found no glaring inconsistencies so far (expcept maybe the open tolerance of vampires in the Empire).

When it comes to novels I personally can't stand Malus Darkblade.
It's just an endless string of gory scenes, battles and weird crap to up the cool factor.

I'm not saying it's so badly written so much as the story is just..it ....hard to explain...the story is just too out there, it's an old book given but it just doesn't feel like it ever belonged in the setting, kind of like someone wrote a vampire novel then swapped a couple names out for warhammer references.

On Malus Darkblade though, MD is a very very well written series and despite how complex and scatty it's story can get at times for the most part really shows off just the kind of guy Darkblade is and how alien and fantastical Elven society is, if you think it's gory and filled with wierd crap then you've likely not read the later Gotrek and Felix books

Without giving specific spoilers Gotrek...in one novel Gotrek battles a Big monsterous opponent who he kills by removing it's eye from the socket and while the thing is dangling there it's got all brain juices and everything leaking out....it turned the gore factor to 10.

[Beaviz81]

I'm not saying it's so badly written so much as the story is just..it ....hard to explain...the story is just too out there, it's an old book given but it just doesn't feel like it ever belonged in the setting, kind of like someone wrote a vampire novel then swapped a couple names out for warhammer references.

On Malus Darkblade though, MD is a very very well written series and despite how complex and scatty it's story can get at times for the most part really shows off just the kind of guy Darkblade is and how alien and fantastical Elven society is, if you think it's gory and filled with wierd crap then you've likely not read the later Gotrek and Felix books

Without giving specific spoilers Gotrek...in one novel Gotrek battles a Big monsterous opponent who he kills by removing it's eye from the socket and while the thing is dangling there it's got all brain juices and everything leaking out....it turned the gore factor to 10.

Just a stab at the last thing you wrote. Boneripper X's death?

[N810]

Dwarves, Seriously we are sorry, we didn't know the skaven where diging a tunnels under your holds, it's not entirely our fault. Seriously its been many generations since then.

- The Slann

[nagash66]

Moonblood...that is all.

[Artinam]

For the big War people. Wars can also involve hundreds of people and still be classified as a war. Only really since Napoleonic times you see more mass equipped armies of the people ranging in the hundreds of thousands or more.

In Medieval times, wars were a lot smaller scale. I mean I can portray a VERY grim dark depiction of our time. I see Warhammer as something similar otherwise 'civilization' couldn't exist.

[Jedi152]

The overall 'grim-ness' is getting too much. For once i want to see the good guys win.

I can't remember the last time non-chaotic humans, dwarfs or elves won a battle in the background.

[Korraz]

The overall 'grim-ness' is getting too much. For once i want to see the good guys win.

I can't remember the last time non-chaotic humans, dwarfs or elves won a battle in the background.

Whenever they fight each other.
But I'm with you there. This Chaos Boner has been going far too long.