The background that annoys you most

[Razakel]

This! My god, this!

Though, I a may be wrong, didn't GW try to rationalize it that Ungrim vowed to not let the marauders threw, and a few of them got into Sylvania? (Where they were zombified, of course). So for that, he retook the slayer oath? If so, it is still pretty daft, seeing as how his son just died to lift the damn thing.

I'm honestly not sure, I was going over my Dwarf army book - here's a quote from page 15.

"His father defended Peak Pass against numerous attacks but when the forces of the Chaos Dwarfs entered the conflict, he was unable to hold any longer. Hearing of the death of Garagrim, Ungrim took upon himself the Slayer Oath once again, thereby merging his oath as king and his oath to seek death."

I realise they're both said together, but the way it's written, it seems like two separate thoughts. He couldn't defend Peak Pass, which sucked, but then he heard about Garagrim's death and instantly re-took the slayers oath? Was it a cumulative thing? Peak Pass + dead son? But why should Garagrim even be an influence, he just died so Ungrim wouldn't have to do what he did.

The whole thing lacks consistency to me.

[Athelassan]

Something else I've remembered which annoys me is the approach taken with the history of the Empire. Although WFRP did a reasonable job of addressing it, sometimes it seems like the studio treat the Empire as if it's been a single unchanged entity for two and a half thousand years, which aside from being unrealistic is also closing off a lot of opportunities for interesting stories. In particular, there's a tendency when writing about a historical elector count to namecheck the current ruling family. If the army books are to be believed, the Ludenhofs and Gaussers were ruling in their respective provinces a thousand years before the present, and the Leitdorfs nearly as long ago. Those three are particularly glaring, since (better) background suggests that each of those families actually only came to power in the last generation or so. I don't mind there being the odd family which has maintained its position in a province by hook or by crook since "the time of Sigmar" but it seems unimaginative to have them in every province.

It's also slightly frustrating when the distinction between Middenheim and Middenland is overlooked; from 550-1150 and from c.1550-2300 they were separate and often fairly hostile provinces, but the names are often treated as interchangeable.

[slaanghoul]

If they made them more powerful and more expensive in the rules, that wouldn't be such an issue

How come a lot of people always pick on the limited steamtanks (8). . . .but when it is eight times more less common such as special characters that people take, it's not a big deal.

all magic items are very rare and all special characters, steamtanks, etc.... are all rare, we are just lucky that we get to play them. That's the whole point about this game, we get to take part in the special time and place in the event that shape the WH world. If you want to play some back woods, middle of crap village, in the arm pit of Empire that won't matter in the history of WH then.... go ahead...

I like to play battles that mean something, if I wanted to have a boring crap games that means nothing to the world of WH... I could just go to the mall and live my real life. We play this game to be an armchair general and pretended that we make a different in the WHFB world......

[BigbyWolf]

Like Storm of Chaos, or the Nemesis Crown, you mean? Big, important things like that?

[Craze_b0i]

My main gripe about the steam tank is that some guy called Leonardo builds 12 then dies - but somehow the knowledge can't be replicated. This even though steamtanks are constantly taken apart for repairs and then reassembled, and even though the same engineers can apparently build a mechanical horse.

[Vmartini]

Yeah, that's not even reverse engineering, its 'putting the spare parts together in the right order'.

[Artinam]

Heck they even upgrade, doesn't the fluff describe how to improved implements for aiming and determining whether the boiler is at the right temperature?

[Arnizipal]

My main gripe about the steam tank is that some guy called Leonardo builds 12 then dies - but somehow the knowledge can't be replicated. This even though steamtanks are constantly taken apart for repairs and then reassembled, and even though the same engineers can apparently build a mechanical horse.

It seems to work for all Imperial technology in 40K

I never liked the mechanical horse. I preferred the rumour that it was created through a secret joint-venture with the Gold Order of magic (making it part golem).

[Fear Ghoul]

If its still in the fluff, I'd say the fact that there are only supposed to be 8 steam tanks left out of 12. For such a popular unit which every Empire man and his dog seems to have its always seemed stupid to have such a restriction in the fluff to me.

The fact that there are only 8 steam tanks doesn't preclude everybody using one because everybody's army lists exist in complete isolation within the Warhammer World. My Vampire Counts army doesn't exist in the same Warhammer as somebody else's for instance. So everybody can use a steam tank in their army and there will still only be 8, and they will still hardly ever be used in background. I've never understood this propensity for people to associate army list choices with real background rarity.

But even worse is what has happened to the fluff... it's EXACTLY what you've described there, all the original coolness and subtlety and cleverness and pseudo-historical feeling is utterly gone, it's just a hideously kitschy overblown ridiculous mess!!! What happened to my beloved Warhammer????

A theory: totally aside from the ever-mushrooming commercialization of the game, I think the original fluff was written by guys who had a really strong grounding in actual history but also happened to be geeks with an interest in sword & sorcery. The present generation is written by fanboys who have no sense of real history and are therefore their own fluff is rooted only in other fluff. It's similar to how a good fantasy painter like Frank Frazetta is grounded in knowledge of real anatomy, lightning, tone and value -- which makes his fantasy subjects seem more realistic -- while a fanboy who only wants paint monsters and castles without any knowledge of anatomy or architecture is going to produce some crappy work. Another analogy might be how a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy just rapidly deteriorates in quality.

SUCH A SHAME!!!!!

The problem I have with this is two-fold: First, Warhammer was never subtle. It was fairly obvious that Sigmar was Conan in disguise, the Empire was the Holy Roman Empire, Bretonnia was Medieval France etc. Referential does not equal subtle. Secondly, GW background often gets accused of being copied from edition to edition without change, so how can it have gotten worse whilst still remaining the same? Additions like moonblood are minor and represent less than 1% of total background.

And on the subject of moonblood, people often accuse GW of targetting kids with their "childish" background, all the while selling Witch Elves and Morathi models, and yet at the same time those Witch Elves have no reason to be scantily clad as they are, but it doesn't stop people asking for more of the same (see Dark Elves wishlisting threads for reference) as if having completely pointless and unnecessary nudity makes it mature (see Game of Thrones). And how much flak does GW take for eliminating those stupid Slaanesh daemonettes, with all the claims of dumbing down and such, despite the fact that the background has always suggested that the current versions are much closer to actual daemonettes? Every time I read a Vampire Counts thread where somone asks where he can find some scantily clad female models to use as Lahmians just furthers my conviction that the fanbase should be left as far away from the background as possible.

[Damien 1427]

I never liked the mechanical horse. I preferred the rumour that it was created through a secret joint-venture with the Gold Order of magic (making it part golem).

I am perhaps the only person who does like the Mechanical Horse.

[Arnizipal]

The problem I have with this is two-fold: First, Warhammer was never subtle. It was fairly obvious that Sigmar was Conan in disguise, the Empire was the Holy Roman Empire, Bretonnia was Medieval France etc. Referential does not equal subtle. Secondly, GW background often gets accused of being copied from edition to edition without change, so how can it have gotten worse whilst still remaining the same? Additions like moonblood are minor and represent less than 1% of total background.

Older editions tended to be (slighty) less sensational then the newer versions, which are scaled up for extra epicness:

Fourteen billion men faced each other on a bloodstained plain 980,000 miles across which was coloured like blood from the blood red sky and the rain fell like blood into an ocean of blood filled with blood. Also, blood. Each general personally slew thousands of men with only his nostrils, then they met in single combat where their duel lasted for 48 years

[Urgat]

It seems to work for all Imperial technology in 40K

I never liked the mechanical horse. I preferred the rumour that it was created through a secret joint-venture with the Gold Order of magic (making it part golem).

Iirc in manslayer it's strongly suggested it's been made with the help of Malakai Makaisson.

Damien: not going to say I love the horse, but I don't mind it, compared to some people who seem to think it's killed their kittens or something The mini is certainly cool whatever people think of the fluff.

[Athlan na Dyr]

The problem I have with this is two-fold: First, Warhammer was never subtle. It was fairly obvious that Sigmar was Conan in disguise, the Empire was the Holy Roman Empire, Bretonnia was Medieval France etc. Referential does not equal subtle. Secondly, GW background often gets accused of being copied from edition to edition without change, so how can it have gotten worse whilst still remaining the same? Additions like moonblood are minor and represent less than 1% of total background.

Yes, it was never subtle. But it was suitably grandiose and 'epic', with heroes of grand proportions without being 'comic book'y/ cartoony. There was nothing quite so mary-sue as Kaldor Draigo (yes wrong universe, but bear with me as its the same studio and I have better examples for this), no instances of elves and dwarves acting like idiots just because a certain vampire count was around and so on and so forth. There was a reasonable amount of justification and explanation of the heroes and the events that shape them, rather than just the final battle at the end where they look cool.

Hell, I could even stomach the attrocity that is the KD fluff in the Grey Knight codex if there was at least some explanation other than 'Grey Knights are awesome and therefore uncorruptable. GK POWAH!'. I mean, if he had been rescued by Grand Master whats-his-face when a child, indoctrinated by him into the chapter and trained by him (creating a father figure), then when he watched random-demon-X tear the GM apart like a rag doll, it would be halfway believable when KD is consumed by rage and hurls himself at the demon. Change it to the demon escaping and running away from the GK's, with KD growing into his role as the GM over the next couple of hundred years. Finally catches up with the demon, demon flees into the warp and KD follows. Add in a few lines about the purity of his hate protecting him from the demons in the warp and (coupled with his use of a bloodthirster's weapon) you've got reasonable doubt as to whether its just Khorne using him as a new champion or the Emperor allowing him to survive in the warp.

And yes, it may be 1% of all fluff that is full of this cartoony-ness, but its that 1% that niggles away and makes everything else seem a bit off. To me at least.

And on the subject of moonblood, people often accuse GW of targetting kids with their "childish" background, all the while selling Witch Elves and Morathi models, and yet at the same time those Witch Elves have no reason to be scantily clad as they are, but it doesn't stop people asking for more of the same (see Dark Elves wishlisting threads for reference) as if having completely pointless and unnecessary nudity makes it mature (see Game of Thrones). And how much flak does GW take for eliminating those stupid Slaanesh daemonettes, with all the claims of dumbing down and such, despite the fact that the background has always suggested that the current versions are much closer to actual daemonettes? Every time I read a Vampire Counts thread where somone asks where he can find some scantily clad female models to use as Lahmians just furthers my conviction that the fanbase should be left as far away from the background as possible.

2 things
1. Witch Elves have every reason to be lightly clothed, due to being the Brides of Khaine and believing Khaine only looks upon the slaughterer/ on warriors on the field of battle (or something like that...). I think there is also something about needing to feel blood on their skin... that could be from something else though...
Regardless, if you believe yourself to be married to a deity and are psycotic enough to be madly in love with him, then you are going to attempt to please him in what ever way you can (kill people, show a little skin and so on). It makes sense to me

2. The previous daemonettes fitted in with what daemonettes could look like. They are meant to either be attractive, except in a wierd way thats taken too far or repulsive, yet hid by a glamour. Ergo, there were two ways that they could be designed, and the metal ones were the ones some people preffered (try explaining to your opponent that your 'attractive' demons look like the current demonettes. Doesn't work). Nothing wrong with expressing preferrence to what was a perfectly fluff justified design.

I'll concede on the Lahmians though

[Drasanil]

I'll concede on the Lahmians though

What's wrong with Lahmians? Every one knows they got ASF because the men were busy checking out their rack and the women insecurely comparing their own

[Francis]

Nothing wrong with the Lahmians showing some skin, they are temptresses and manipulators and the easiest way women have of tricking men is showing off their bodies. The witch elves are sadistic and mad by nature and call me a pervert but I want to see the deamonettes the way my poor statetroops sees them not "the way they are". If however they rereleases the Maiden Guard I want them to be heavily armoured and look like they could beat down Alexander the Great's veterans without sweating.

[Leogun_91]

It seems to work for all Imperial technology in 40K

But they base a religion around not knowing how to build things.

Nothing wrong with the Lahmians showing some skin, they are temptresses and manipulators and the easiest way women have of tricking men is showing off their bodies. The witch elves are sadistic and mad by nature and call me a pervert but I want to see the deamonettes the way my poor statetroops sees them not "the way they are". If however they rereleases the Maiden Guard I want them to be heavily armoured and look like they could beat down Alexander the Great's veterans without sweating.

Your poor statetroopers see them as what they desire, a fun idea would be to make a unit of them and then have one for each army they could meet, looking like food for ogres, warpstone for skaven, naked ladies for empire/brettonia, etc. The problem with making daemonettes as your troopers would see them is that each would see them differently.

[Urgat]

But they base a religion around not knowing how to build things.

Your poor statetroopers see them as what they desire, a fun idea would be to make a unit of them and then have one for each army they could meet, looking like food for ogres, warpstone for skaven, naked ladies for empire/brettonia, etc. The problem with making daemonettes as your troopers would see them is that each would see them differently.

Hem, no, the demonettes should look the way you want to see them, you're not looking through your troops eyes, are you?

[Leogun_91]

Hem, no, the demonettes should look the way you want to see them, you're not looking through your troops eyes, are you?

He said he wanted to see them as his statetroops would see them.

[Francis]

He said he wanted to see them as his statetroops would see them.

Indeed I do, and for statetroops I think it would be close enough to make hot alluring deamons. Most men would go for that.

[loveless]

Indeed I do, and I for statetroops I think it would be close enough to make hot alluring deamons. Most men would go for that.

To cover all of the bases, you should probably include a few male daemonettes. Also, given humans aren't the most satisfactory creatures in the Warhammer World, you may want to include a few bases of sheep and goats.