The background that annoys you most

[Storyteller]

Although Sigmar has been the patron deity of the Empire for almost as long as there's been an Empire, I think the political and ideological dominance of Sigmarism at the apex of the Empire's henotheistic society really took off after Magnus the Pious. His faith and his vision saw off the Chaos Hordes and reforged the long-fragmented Empire by normalising unity of Sigmarism and State throughout the politics of the Empire. So Sigmar = the Empire = Unity = Victory.

Prior to Magnus, although Sigmarism was endemic, it seems that the vision of Sigmar had little traction with the warring nobles of the Empire.

I really enjoy this interpretation - the idea of a very prevalent Sigmarism pre: Magnus but that the alignment of church (of Sigmar) and state became that much more solid in the wake of Magnus the Pious. Perhaps it was more a matter of returning to this state of play though after a number of years of disunity? Sigmar has always (well, since the Empire's founding more or less) been a 'State Deity.'

Well I think the dominance of the Sigmar faith is less recent than people think. The cult of sigmar gets three votes in the electoral system of the Emperor, I don't know when this came about but it is not necessarily recent.

This is the impression I get from what I have read (though I never feel the need to constrain myself to things I read which don't 'work' for me).

My original thinking about the burning/exclusion of magic users from Imperial Armies pre: Magnus was that I get the impression that the Witch Hunters were given (or just took) free reign to burn ANY magic user prior the founding of the colleges. Since Magnus the Pious both magic (in the form of the Colleges) AND the Witch Hunters have been reigned in a bit under Imperial control. The Witch Hunters are officially servants of the Emperor (the temporal representative of Sigmar?) and they now have to live with the Colleges of Magic: some perhaps think they are a Sigmar-sanctioned necessary evil to use against Chaos, others perhaps miss the old 'burning times' and think all magic should be purged.

What year are we supposed to be up to know in Warhammer, 2512 I.C.?

The griffon wielding a hammer, the very image that adorns the Theogonist's war altar, is Magnus' own emblem, which shows his importance to both the religion and politics or of the Empire.

As far as I know we are meant to be 2522 imperial count. We were 2512 in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st ed (don't know if that translates to FB at the time). Mordheim was 1999 which I think coincided with the Time of the Three Emperors.

Thanks for the info about Magnus - I had always wondered where the religious significance of the Griffon for Sigmarites comes from.

Aye, I suspect, in fact, that the cult of Sigmar actually served as a divisive influence on the Empire historically rather than a unifying one. The core of Sigmarite support is in a handful of southern provinces (Reikland, Stirland, arguably Wissenland and Averland, and historically probably Drakwald), with a bit of an anomaly in Ostland, which could be alienating for northern provinces which are already hacked off about various other issues, and leads to a greater investment in "local" gods like Taal and Ulric. It's not surprising that the Empire fractured along broadly religious lines in the second millennium.

Yeah, I've always thought of most people in the Empire worshipping the entire pantheon of deities to varying degrees depending on their social station (Shallaya when sick, Sigmar for protection, etc.) but that the priesthoods jockey for the position of their deity within that pantheon and in terms of temporal influence and this is where the divisions come into play, especially when they map onto divisions between the Electors.

[Antipathy]

Ignorance of other factions completely and utterly. The warhammer world begins and ends on the devolution of one of the worlds smallest and least stable geopolitical regions. Tamurkhan is beginning to explore outside this empire shaped box by including cathay, badlands and border princes, monstrous arcanum included tilea and estalia.As it happens otherwise, warlords with supposed world shaking powers and in command of forces analogous to the armies of genghis khan struggle to take even relatively minor cities, or that cities like a historical constantinople or rome or cairo or jerusalem are as commonplace as having at least 4 such cities within spitting difference under the control of a single faction (despite geopolitics).Also, Asrai. How many times are can they be the beastmen, dwarfs and vampires go to targets, be the saviours of bretonnia, fight in mega apocalypse battles, and yet maintain a land that is about the size of averland, no larger than a 1/3rd the size of bretonnia. They must surely all be dead now or have at least 12 fingers.

[Craze_b0i]

On the topic of magic users the Empire book states Magnus lifted the laws against the practice of wizardry so that Empire armies would never again have to fight without magic. All of that seems to imply the Empire armies had no wizards whatsoever.

On the other hand in the BL Dead Winter the emperor has his own warlock among his followers, so it is possible that powerful nobles would flout the law. Although in the army-book fluff the High Elves seem unaware that the humans already had wizards. The only explanation I can come up with is they thought they were disclosing a massive secret, like sharing the secret of fire with monkeys - but in this case the monkeys already knew.

[Urgat]

On the topic of magic users the Empire book states Magnus lifted the laws against the practice of wizardry so that Empire armies would never again have to fight without magic. All of that seems to imply the Empire armies had no wizards whatsoever.

Nah, it implies there was magic users and people were not happy about it so they made a law against it. It also implies that if Magnus decided to lift the ban, it's because he was somehow convinced it was a bad idea, and I doubt he got the idea while reading the newspaper in the toilets. He saw that magic was cool in combat. Ergo, he saw a wizard kick asses during a fight.

[Antipathy]

Wizards in the sense of wizards would not have existed, but those who would have used tribalistic or shamanistic rituals would have existed. Necromancy would have been a big thing, hence the protection of Morr durimg the funereal rites. Even if there was no formal application of its instruction and the open use of flashy pyrotechnics during battle under the empires state troops that is not to say that a courtly advisor could not have been a heavens user, a judge a secret shadow user, a priest of morr perhaps having necromantic tendencies, a lords huntmaster or stablemaster being able to intuit with beasys etc.

Also just because every 800 point army you see these days is lead by a level 4 battle wizard they are histrocally rare.

[snottlebocket]

On the topic of magic users the Empire book states Magnus lifted the laws against the practice of wizardry so that Empire armies would never again have to fight without magic. All of that seems to imply the Empire armies had no wizards whatsoever.

On the other hand in the BL Dead Winter the emperor has his own warlock among his followers, so it is possible that powerful nobles would flout the law. Although in the army-book fluff the High Elves seem unaware that the humans already had wizards. The only explanation I can come up with is they thought they were disclosing a massive secret, like sharing the secret of fire with monkeys - but in this case the monkeys already knew.

Untrained magic in warhammer is dangerous. It leads to mutation, possession and worse. Without proper knowledge magic users in the empire were hedge wizards, witches, people with mysterious and untrained powers and they all posed a danger regardless of their intend. Think along the lines of the angry teenager that causes the bully next door to spontaniously combust and explode in a rain of fanged frogs that proceed to gnaw on everyone's ankles. Needless to say, people weren't a fan.

Magnus was unique in that he wasn't an appointed leader or military officer. The war against chaos was faring badly and the leadership of the imperial army was shattered. Magnus rose up and preached for a righteous cause that everyone could get behind. He didn't just lead the imperial army, he led everyone who could hold a weapon and spit a curse at chaos. He even allowed those touched by the arcane to march because he knew he was going to need all the help he could get. So for the first time the empire employed magic in open battle. Hedge wizards, witches, hermits that could rouse the wild and folks with unexplained powers.

After the great war Teclis saw the need for human wizards to battle the evils of the world. The high elves were too few to carry the burden alone. So he taught humans how to filter the vile winds of magic. How to cast simplified spells that were cleaner and safer than raw magic. Mere humans weren't capable of wielding pure high magic but they could learn to wield smaller, purified facets of magic. That's why the empire has colleges of magic that focus on a single aspect of the winds.

The Empire will still come down like a ton of bricks on untrained and unsanctioned magic users because they simply are a risk to society. But the colleges provide them with the ability to meet the enemy with magic as well as steel.

[Sheena Easton]

Nah, it implies there was magic users and people were not happy about it so they made a law against it. It also implies that if Magnus decided to lift the ban, it's because he was somehow convinced it was a bad idea, and I doubt he got the idea while reading the newspaper in the toilets. He saw that magic was cool in combat. Ergo, he saw a wizard kick asses during a fight.

Those wizards would be High Elf Archmages Finreir, Yrtle and a minor illusionist called Teclis.

[Urgat]

You do have a point.

[Craze_b0i]

Originally Posted by Urgat

Nah, it implies there was magic users and people were not happy about it so they made a law against it. It also implies that if Magnus decided to lift the ban, it's because he was somehow convinced it was a bad idea, and I doubt he got the idea while reading the newspaper in the toilets. He saw that magic was cool in combat. Ergo, he saw a wizard kick asses during a fight.

Those wizards would be High Elf Archmages Finreir, Yrtle and a minor illusionist called Teclis.

Ninja'd. Exactly the point I was going to make. Plus the fact he noticed that the enemies of the empire were using shamen and sorcerers. I imagine it was a little light bulb going on inside his head.

It is sad but probable that the Empire needlessly lost millions of lives and dozens of battles over the past millenia because they had not trained & deployed their own wizards to counter those of their opponent. Ultimately it took no less than a Great Chaos Incursion to make them overcome superstition to see their own folly.

I think a lot of those replying to my last post didn't read it properly. I didn't say the Empire had no magic I said that it was implied that there were no wizards in the Empire's armies (very different thing).

[snottlebocket]

Ninja'd. Exactly the point I was going to make. Plus the fact he noticed that the enemies of the empire were using shamen and sorcerers. I imagine it was a little light bulb going on inside his head.

It is sad but probable that the Empire needlessly lost millions of lives and dozens of battles over the past millenia because they had not trained & deployed their own wizards to counter those of their opponent. Ultimately it took no less than a Great Chaos Incursion to make them overcome superstition to see their own folly.

I think a lot of those replying to my last post didn't read it properly. I didn't say the Empire had no magic I said that it was implied that there were no wizards in the Empire's armies (very different thing).

That's because it wasn't superstition. Magic in warhammer is very, very bad. It's corrupting, mutating and dangerous. It literally causes bad things to happen wherever it collects.

It took the finest elven arch mages to teach humans how to use a dumbed down, cleaned up, fragment of magic in order to make human battle wizards possible. Untrained human wizardry was bad news and they hunted magic users down with good reason. And they still do, the colleges of magic are a necesary evil so to speak but untrained magic users still get burned.

[Craze_b0i]

That's because it wasn't superstition. Magic in warhammer is very, very bad. It's corrupting, mutating and dangerous. It literally causes bad things to happen wherever it collects.

It took the finest elven arch mages to teach humans how to use a dumbed down, cleaned up, fragment of magic in order to make human battle wizards possible. Untrained human wizardry was bad news and they hunted magic users down with good reason. And they still do, the colleges of magic are a necesary evil so to speak but untrained magic users still get burned.

Magic is not automatically bad, thats just dark magic cuz its raw and unfiltered. The Empire however had popular superstition that all magic is evil.

Also humans already had magic: Cathay, Araby, Nekkhara. It did not need the intervention of Teclis for human battle wizards to become possible. It's just the Empire that was a special-needs case due to their previous mistrust, hence Teclis saw they needed help to get started otherwise it would take them ages to build up their knowledge.

[Arnizipal]

Magic is not automatically bad, thats just dark magic cuz its raw and unfiltered. The Empire however had popular superstition that all magic is evil.

Magic is inherently dangerous if you don't know what you're doing (and most pre-college wizards were just experimenting on their own).
Before you know it you're unwittingly drawing in Dark Magic (which for humans can be caused by simply drawing power from two winds at once) and it's all down-hill form there.

[woodster17]

If 8th edition WFB is anything to go by there's little point being a wizard at all since there's a half decent chance you'll blow up or suck yourself and anybody within a close vicinity in to the realm of chaos each time you step on a battlefield. All magic is 'bad' if you don't know what you're doing. Attempt to use it and not having a clue= death. Unless you're particularly skilled (High Elves) there is little chance of producing magic as powerful as 'evil' races as they are generally more willing to risk the more destructive winds than races such as The Empire.

Cathay, Araby and Nehekhara are irrelevant with Teclis as they're not important in the Man v Chaos storyline (especially since the Nehekharans were long dead in the time of Magnus the Pious).

[grumbaki]

Nehekera didnt have anyone to teach Nagash magic. He had to have dark elves do it for him. I get the impression that their magic is so ritualized that pre undeath it didnt allow for any understanding of how it worked, which is bad for personal innovation. Look at their origional magic rules. If a priest casted out of order, everyone got messed up. They couldhave used teclis.

Cathay has open worship of tzeench. That will certainly help humans master magic...but does anyone think that is a good thing?

Without protection or indepth knowledge of what you are doing, fiddling with magic is a very bad idea.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Magic is inhertently dangerous if you don't know what you're doing (and most pre-college wizards were just experimenting on their own).
Before you know it you're unwittingly drawing in Dark Magic (which for humans can be caused by simply drawing power from two winds at once) and it's all down-hill form there.

Pretty much this. Before Teclis I don't believe any wizard in the Empire knew how to use only one of the winds. In other words they were using raw magic, which by definition is chaos. This eventually corrupted them, made them insane and finally turned them into wraiths. None of which are conducive to a good view of magic from the common folk.

Nehekera didnt have anyone to teach Nagash magic. He had to have dark elves do it for him. I get the impression that their magic is so ritualized that pre undeath it didnt allow for any understanding of how it worked, which is bad for personal innovation. Look at their origional magic rules. If a priest casted out of order, everyone got messed up. They couldhave used teclis.

Cathay has open worship of tzeench. That will certainly help humans master magic...but does anyone think that is a good thing?

Without protection or indepth knowledge of what you are doing, fiddling with magic is a very bad idea.

Pre Nagash they called on their Gods' power (probably in a similar fashion to a Sigmarite Warrior Priest). That is why it was ritualised. However that ony applied to the magic from the winds of magic. Geomancy was relatively well understood in Nagash's time.
Post Nagash + a few years to the time of Alcadizaar, they were using wizards (according to the ToL books by Mike Lee ). Whether you view that as a good source is a matter of opinion, but the liche priests did eventually discover how to use the winds (seeing as the Gods all dissapeared, they found a new power source).

I had no idea Cathay worshipped Tzeentch.

[grumbaki]

Pretty much this. Before Teclis I don't believe any wizard in the Empire knew how to use only one of the winds. In other words they were using raw magic, which by definition is chaos. This eventually corrupted them, made them insane and finally turned them into wraiths. None of which are conducive to a good view of magic from the common folk.



Pre Nagash they called on their Gods' power (probably in a similar fashion to a Sigmarite Warrior Priest). That is why it was ritualised. However that ony applied to the magic from the winds of magic. Geomancy was relatively well understood in Nagash's time.
Post Nagash + a few years to the time of Alcadizaar, they were using wizards (according to the ToL books by Mike Lee ). Whether you view that as a good source is a matter of opinion, but the liche priests did eventually discover how to use the winds (seeing as the Gods all dissapeared, they found a new power source).

I had no idea Cathay worshipped Tzeentch.

http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Cathay

"The capital and seat of the Dragon throne of Cathay is Wei-jin. The worship of Tzeentch is legal and widely practised in Cathay, albeit in less extreme forms than the worshiping practices of the Northmen." I remember reading it elsewhere as well, but this is all I could find.

And about Neherkera, that is interesting. I hadn't read past the first book, but I suppose it is as close to canon as we'll get for that time period. Out of curiosity, why did the gods disappear?

[Athlan na Dyr]

Hm, that too is very interesting. I do wonder why Tzeentch would offer his gifts to those who do not fully embrace his creed .

As for the other,

Nagash killed the Daughter of the Sun (who symbolised the Covenant) to break the wards of the priest city. After that all ties between the Nehekharans and the Gods were severed, with the exception of Khsar the Faceless.

[ryng_sting]

One ought to remember the Nehekaran magic system was largely divine magic, not true arcane magic.

[snottlebocket]

Hm, that too is very interesting. I do wonder why Tzeentch would offer his gifts to those who do not fully embrace his creed .

As for the other,

Nagash killed the Daughter of the Sun (who symbolised the Covenant) to break the wards of the priest city. After that all ties between the Nehekharans and the Gods were severed, with the exception of Khsar the Faceless.

People using the corrupting power of magic without fully understanding what they're doing? Oh Tzeentch would love that. "And for my next trick I will conjure a fireball to throw at our OH GOD MY ARM IS A SHARK!"

You don't have to be a full on chaos worshipper to be useful to chaos. The old world is littered with cults and fanatics who don't even realize they're worshipping chaos.

[Arnizipal]

http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Cathay

"The capital and seat of the Dragon throne of Cathay is Wei-jin. The worship of Tzeentch is legal and widely practised in Cathay, albeit in less extreme forms than the worshiping practices of the Northmen." I remember reading it elsewhere as well, but this is all I could find.

The Genevieve novels feature a Cathayan Tzeentch worshipper.
He serves the Monkey King, who seems to be at war with the Dragon Emperor so maybe open Tzeentch worship isn't allowed in the entire country.