Help with a SM/IN list

[horizon]

Andrew, you are very very wrong regarding the FAQ/Compendium 2010. Dimissing it at half-***ed fan rules is very wrong.

Tell, what original fleet got messed up due the FAQ? I say none. The point changes are needed (eg Armageddon, Voss CL, Hellebore etc).

The new fleets are additions. The lance on the Marines is something GW wanted (from what we got from the HA, the fan majority disliked it and made it a crap option. The Seditio became a cool/balanced/fluff option now.

Bakka was mediocre in the fanatic magazine, now it became better.

All due the HA working on it and asking the fans/community for input. And that was a GREAT approach.


(I am biased, I am mentioned in the introduction of the FAQ, but it also means I know how it was developed ).

There are some things I dislike in the FAQ. And some in fact won't be used forever. Like the stacking rules. And we still play blastmarkers v1.0 (1999).

[andrewchristlieb]

Darn power went out right in the middle of what I was saying *rolleyes*. Anyway first off I'm sorry if I'm upsetting you guys because that's not my intention these are just my opinions on what I have seen and read. The chaos, in, tau, sm, cwe, and ork rules are reworks of older rules that have been around for a while. The inq, admech, and rt are expansions to attempt to create fleets that really should never have been fleets anyway, kind of like the original space marine rules. I never said the rules are half***ed, but on that subject the rt and inq are pretty bad. A lot of fan based stuff is really good and I have no problem using it (mms) others not so much. I don't believe any of the rules have broken the original fleets, just that most of it wasn't needed.

None of this takes away from the fact that they are not legal, you cannot find the in a gw publication or on their website so get permission. If your running your own tourney or campaign then you need to make a decision as to wither its legal to you or not. As I said I'd take these rules no problem, I don't like a lot of it but I don't like a lot of the original rules either and I still play. Your best bet if you use these rules in your campaign is to monitor them! Let your players know that your using these rules and get they're opinions after the battles. If people think the rules are not working then revert to standard.

[horizon]

True, that it ain't official. And agreement to use is needed. A tournament like Adepticon uses it, this being one of the largest tournaments around.

I disagree with you on the fact Rogue Traders & AdMech should never have fleets. Aside of the fact that they have models for them I think that both have a good position within the 40k universe & BFG game to have an unique fleet.
The Rogue Traders rules ain't bad and a step up from the old set of rules. Personally (see the RT list in Warp Rift) I would see more options, aka a step more towards FFG Rogue Trader.

The reworks as you say: the core are notes left over from the old HA: Andy Chambers, Matt Keefe. (Both GW employees at that position). Chaos got the Terminus Est for Nurgle + rules, GW showed models for the other gods at one point, it was even announced in the rules for the TE. So getting rules now for the other Chaos gods is something that should've been. The models in this case is left up to the imagination.
Orks are based of Andy's work.

Tau: Before FW released the Tau rules the HA had released a ruleset. FW asked SG to pull the Tau rules, which was done. However that HA ruleset + FW rules was the core for the new development. Adding in the turning element was done through a 'tour de force of logic, playability, fun, uniqueness etc'.

From the core notes on things got developed.

CWE: yep, the old pdf set was the basic. And aside of the Shadowhunter (and no mms ) the ruleset is better then before,

[andrewchristlieb]

See on RT and Admech I believe that they would be better portrayed as additions to an IN fleet then as a fleet of their own. The Admech is the best of the three as far as playability tho. Rouge trader and the wolf packs have way too much access to cruisers which are supposed to be pretty rare even for the IN. There really needs to be a fleetlist for escort only fleets, with ships that address the issues of running an escort only fleet for the wolf packs. Something similar to an old IN fleet list floating around about a low priority sector that only gets escorts or something. Rogue traders should be strictly light cruiser/ rt cruiser and transport only with additional heavy transport variants to flesh out the fleet list (like a heavy transport carrier....)

[bryantroy2003]

lol Limante isnt an old list floating around. Its in the Warp Rift magazines, you can check it up and critique it if you feel it doesnt do the job of making escorts king properly, but Cruisers are the backbone of any self respecting fleet that wants to be capable of long range missions. Unless you take along 3-4 transports full of spare parts/food stocks/replacement ppl/pre-fab dockyards you wont be able to do much past a 8-9month patrol and even then if you engage more then once your going to be critically low on supplies when you pull into dock.

And as far as RT's go, read some of the Rogue Trader books for the RPG they do a great job defining their role and abilities. Obtaining a cruiser for them is neigh impossible unless they have enterprises that span whole sectors and beyond. So if they do have one, you can assume they are pretty damn important and cunning enough to aquire the wealth/influance/leadership ability neccisary to grab one from the enemy/a mothball yard. Many cruisers are passed down through the families through dozens if not hundred's of generations before the current RT got their hands on it. While the backbone of their operations are those ships that can haul the quanities of goods they need to get to their buyers in order to maintain their pocket-empires. And thus the large number of transports, is it a hinderance? Sure, but its also a challenge. Are you able to play with that handicap and win? Can you succede with minimal AC support and make it through with enough ships to complete your endevor and continue to prosper? Or will you ultimatly lead your family into ruin and hardship?

[horizon]

Yes, the single Rogue Trader will have only a cruiser in his own mission, however a Rogue Trader can be placed at the command of a great expeditionary fleet with many Emperor-willed gun-bristling cruisers. Or the rogue trader ads himself to an alien fleet. Or the Inquisition says "gimme your ship". These aspects where used in the Warp Rift RT fleet lists/rules.

[andrewchristlieb]

Limante, that's what I was thinking of! Yes I see warp rift there was an updated version recently, I like the carrier frigate in the newer version, the original was a bit op imo. For a human escort heavy fleet tho there should be a higher limit to the number in a squad (2-12). The thing I didn't like about the Limante list was the fluff really. First off was there even an inquisition pre herasy? And if so why would they send anyone to make a personal appeal to the kocal commanders when the sector command could just send the orders down? I like the Ultramarine angle tho that sounds like a perfect excuse for what's happened to keep them "in the dark". The bigest problem tho is if they're stuck in a pre herasy mind set why do they have newer ships? There's tons of opportunity to create a loyalist chaos fleetlist and bring in new escorts! Defense frigates with 2 shields, escorts with 45cm weapons batteries using tech no longer available, a lance armed destroyer based off the iconoclast, and the "re commissioned" escort from the rt list (except of course they would never have been decommissioned) and havocs from the bakka list. Cruisers limited to murder and carnage in extremely limited numbers could work well with some light cruisers maybe. And if there is going to be a limit on ordnance it should be taken as a ship based limit instead of a new rule, the limit of 4 carriers to a group for example is good and maybe make a limit of no more than 1/4 of the escorting ships maybe armed with torps/attack craft.

As for rt running an expedition this is where adding them to an IN list would make the most sense to me, the same goes for rt tagging along with aliens. I like the fluff behind them as bryan mentioned I just think there should be much more emphasis in a strictly rt list placed on heavy transports (with modifications! Heavy transport carrier for one!).

[bryantroy2003]

Fluff wise there was no news that far out in the rim as to the herasy's ending. It wasnt until several centuries later that the Inquisition was formed and attempted to use the commandered ships to establish their interstelar transport independant of the other agencies. As far as more escort types im hesitant, since they are a sector that isnt minerally rich nor possess a major forge world so where would they really get the tech? Thats why I mentioned the Demiurg and Eldar encounters as to allow me to expand in that direction later with their help if I can find a good points/stats ratio that doesnt break the feel of the IN list.

The limit rule for AC is to make you use it smartly, not simply launch it every turn because its there. It adds an extra depth to your planning because you cant always count on it being there.

For the other cruiser types, the INQ/SM took those to prevent the spread of Heresy and wouldnt have spared a single one.

[andrewchristlieb]

Ah but the thing about the additional escorts is that the tech would not have been out of the ordinary at all before they were "lost" if you will. These would represent ships either lost to the empire or that have been removed from service due to newer models being brought out, but to this sector that has never received news from the empire it would be business as usual to use these.

Having a rule limit like that for ac breaks the fleet and it really makes no sense, like I said if they had such harsh limitations the ships just wouldn't get used as much.

Then why don't they take the ones that are in reserve fleets? This still also begs the question where are they getting all of these "new" Imperial ships from? The Inquisition can request the IN to ferry them around but by no means can they just take ships and hand them out. Also wouldn't they think its odd that someone from a form of government that doesn't exist is coming and saying HEY! we need your ships! but look there's some nice shiny ones over there .

A few ideas for escorts and a bit of back story for them

Sparrowhawk Destroyer...................................45pts

Type/Hits...Speed....Turns....Shields....Armor....Turre ts
Escort/1.....30cm.....90*......1............4+........2

Armament...........Strength.............Range..... ....Arc
Weapons Battery......1...................30cm........L/F/R
Launch Bay.......1 Squadron.........30cm/20cm.....-


Golden Eagle Frigate.......................................55pt s

Type/Hits...Speed....Turns....Shields....Armor....Turre ts
Escort/1.....25cm.....90*......1............5+........3

Armament...........Strength.............Range..... ....Arc
Weapons Battery......2...................30cm........L/F/R
Launch Bay.......1 Squadron.........30cm/20cm.....-

The Sparrowhawk and Golden Eagle escorts are the last of a dying breed of ship designed during the great crusade as an attempt to counter the massive quantities of land based attack craft commonly defending lost worlds. As more and more of the empire was carved there was much less call for such ships and as such many were scrapped or put into fleet reserves for use as training vessels. A few of these were converted to carry Starhawk bombers and Fury interceptors and were used to bolster the defenses of lower priority areas and as a somewhat effective merchant transport. By the late 41st millennium however even many of these have long been retired in favor of the more durable cruiser based designs coming out of the major forges and fleet bases. Currently no major sector fleets make use of these vessels altho minor sectors may still make use of their unique capabilities and de-militarized versions can still be seen escorting rouge trader fleets and in the planetary defense fleets of hundreds of worlds.

Can be modeled by shaping the edges of chaos launch bays to the prow of Iconoclasts (Sparrowhawk) or Infidels (Golden Eagle) Golden Eagles can also be represented by Escort Carriers (all must be painted in appropriate IN colors!)

Scutum Frigate........................................... ...50pts

Type/Hits...Speed....Turns....Shields....Armor....Turre ts
Escort/1.....25cm.....90*......2............5+........2

Armament...........Strength.............Range..... ....Arc
Weapons Battery......3...................45cm........L/F/R

The Scutum class frigate predates the advent of the modern battleship and were designed as a means of introducing void shielding to early Imperial Ironclads by closely escorting them with frigates that would intercept incoming fire. As the newer battleships were developed with their own shield generators the demand for these ships dwindled and with the technology to reproduce their powerful laser batteries becoming more scarce eventually all production was ceased in favor of the newer Sword class with its much simpler design. The majority of these turned traitor and it is believed that much of this ships technology was replicated for use in the Idolator class raider. Very few are still in Imperial service, those that still are however make very valuable additions to any sector commands escort flotillas.

The Scutum class frigate can be modeled using Idolator raiders with their prow lance replaced with one from the IN ship sprue (and painted to IN colors of course!)


Copperhead Destroyer.....................................30pt s

Type/Hits...Speed....Turns....Shields....Armor....Turre ts
Escort/1.....30cm.....90*......1............4+........1

Armament...........Strength.............Range..... ....Arc
Weapons Battery......2...................30cm........L/F/R
Torpedo..................1...................30cm. ..........F

The Copperhead is the predecessor of the ambiguous Cobra destroyer and has had a long and very successful career through out the Imperium. A large portion of these have been stripped and sold to various rouge traders and planetary governments for use as defensive escorts altho most sectors keep several of these in fleet reserve as a backup to the newer Cobra destroyers. They can often be seen patrolling backwater stations and being used in training squadrons for future destroyer officers.

Can be modeled with either cobra destroyers or recommissioned escorts.

Scorcher destroyer......................................... 30pts

Type/Hits...Speed....Turns....Shields....Armor....Turre ts
Escort/1.....25cm.....90*......1............4+........1

Armament...........Strength.............Range..... ....Arc
Weapons battery......1...................30cm........L/F/R
Lance.....................1...................30cm ...........F

The Scorcher was rather uncommon even when they were new. Many attempts had been made to graft a lance onto the smaller destroyer frames in the hopes of creating a ship capable of both high speeds and a powerful punch. The Scorcher was the most successful of these attempts using the Iconoclast hull and power plant Adptus engineers were able to reroute the required energy to power the lance however many of these examples suffered problems with overheating and several were destroyed by the engines detonating. This gave the ship a rather bad name and they were mostly scrapped the few that survived were placed in fleet reserves or low priority areas and forgotten. The crafty engineers assigned to these ships quickly learned that in order for the ship to sustain the energy required to power the lance and not overload the power plants they would need to come up with a solution. It was determined that by shunting a portion of the ships energy from the engines to the lance they could prevent any overheating, but at the cost of a slower speed somewhat defeating their original purpose but making the ship much more reliable.

Can be modeled by attaching a lance turret to an Iconoclast destroyer.

[bryantroy2003]

If the conversation is going to stray away from the OP's request for help I think it should go to PM's.

[andrewchristlieb]

Ah yes I agree, sorry I'm easily thrown off topic :/.