LOTR new releases

[Brother Galfridus]

@Norman


@The Marshel
I agree about the plastics. Seeing as plastic is cheaper to cast and easier to do in bulk, I don’t understand the rationale (again, besides human greed) for selling so many units in metal-only.

The moulds for plastics cost thousands to make, so they only do it for things that will recoup costs. Metal on the other hand requires a more expensive raw material but the moulds are really cheap.

The lack of plastic in the new LOTR releases says a lot about the expectation of sales and overall popularity of the game.

[Peregrin]

Honestly, I play WotR for the scale. If you want something smaller, than SBG is for you (as well as some other games out there).

I agree it can be expensive, but I see it as collecting. I don't expect to have a brand new army from scratch, exactly as I want it, for at least a year. That combines both my budget and my painting skills. I will, however, start collecting a new army based on what forces I can get cheap to start them.

Our gaming group has full Rohan, Elf, Dwarf, and Gondor armies of at least 1000 points without proxies. We're helping the Moria and Angmar armies get started, and the Dwarf player is now working on a 25% Easterling allied Mordor army. We've allowed temp proxies to get people playing, with the understanding that they would be working on collecting the 'proper' models.

With the recent price hike and fail-cast, though, I'm seriously reconsidering that policy. I love the system and will continue to play it, but I'm a little less loyal to GW now, especially since I've recently learned the joys of green stuff mods.

[Stargorger]

@Galfridus
Really? I’m not arguing, but I am curious as to where you get your information. I mean, I know the plastic itself is cheap but I know nothing about the moulds. My understanding was they were simple spin-cast, correct? If so a spin-cast mold isn’t that expensive, it’s the machine that costs, and I’m pretty sure the machine is similar for the metal ones. But yeah, the metal itself in raw materials is definitely more expensive.

I guess my point is even assuming you’re correct, inexpensive plastic and expensive molds + expensive metal and inexpensive moulds =expensive. They should balance each other out. GW may not sell enough plastics to make up the cost of the mold….but they sure as hell don’t sell enough metals to make-up the cost of the materials either. Why they don’t transition away from mass metal molds is the question.

@Peregrin
I’m with you in the way I collect. Except that I tend to work on all my armies at once…IE, get a box for Mordor, then one for Gondor, then one for Angmar, and repeat.
I allow small proxies if it’s impossible to use real minis…like my friend has Fallen Realms, and occasionally takes a couple spear-armed warriors of Harad to be bow-armed stand-ins, or sometimes bow-armed Rohirrim, since the Haradrim boxes come in uneven numbers (URG! Still frustrated that they’d do that).

I hear you about the prices. Hence why I’m looking elsewhere. Ill still buy GW for the stuff that hasn’t changed, like Cavalry and most of the smaller metals (ballistas, etc…) but otherwise I have absolutely no loyalty to GW itself. I don’t like their pricing, I don’t like the way they treat their customers, etc….but I will only buy GW brand minis because I want to keep the ‘correct’ and ‘official’ look. That’s the only real reason. But if GW, say, lost the license to LOTR, or another company acquired one too and their minis were just as nice quality, I’d probably switch in an instant.

[Jobu]

The lack of plastic in the new LOTR releases says a lot about the expectation of sales and overall popularity of the game.

Bad troll

You must be joking, look at how much finecast has come out in the WFB and 40K, they must not have any expectations of high sales then. Most of this release was just a rerelease or an additional sculpt of something they probably already had sitting on the shelf (the easterling mounted characters for example). LoTR also takes fewer models to play than the other systems, no one will play with 5 gorgoroth beasts, or 5 dwellers, or 5 named heroes( since one can not do that ). Makes sense for them not to release such things in plastic and pay for a mold. However we probably will play 6 kataphrakts ( more in WoTR). There are also no alternative models to be made out of these releases, unlike the coven throne or the doomsday ark. GW did included the needed bits to upgrade one plastic cavalry to a captain or horn blower or banner bearer , so maybe that is an alternative model.

[Peregrin]

I didn't realize how restriced the LotR plastics were until I found a box of WH dwarf bitz this weekend. It looked like someone made all the figures from at least a couple of dwarf regiment boxes and stuffed one of the boxes with all of the sprues they weren't using. I picked it up at a thrift store for a couple of bucks. There are no figures in it, but enough shields, shield symbols, banners, heraldry, crossbows, etc. for me to add some interesting mods to my armies, and for my buddy's WotR Dwarf army as well! There were even horns, pipes and beer mugs! (I'll be using the horns to mod some of my plastic regulars into hornblowers.)

Anyway, just a comment on Jobu's last couple of statements. My MT and Rohan Cavalry didn't even have the captain and banner upgrades included.

[Stargorger]

Yeah, true. And true again. Hopefully anyway. I agree about the Gorgoroth beast…I don’t like Failcast but honestly since I probably wont buy the model for a while anyway it doesn’t affect me and, you’re right, most folks will only buy one or maybe two anyway when they do.
My thing about plastics is the existing common troop types of infantry and cavalry that are only metal or finecast. As stated, it’s nigh impossible to get a useful number of these (need 2 companies for most things at least) for less than your very soul. I like the Kataphracts…I think that’s the right direction for GW to go in. But I also would like plastic:
-MAA of Dol Amroth
-Clansmen of Lamedon
-Axemen of Lossarnach
-Corsair Arbalesters
-Uruk-hai with Crossbows
-Wildmen of Dunland
-Dunlending Huscarls and horsemen
-Khandish cavalry and infantry
-Serpent Guard cavalry and infantry
-Rohan Royal guard cavalry and infantry
-Dead Marsh Specters
-Army of the Dead Horsemen
-Black Numenoreans
-Mahud warriors and cavalry
-Khazad Guard
-Iron Guard
-Either Sons of Eorl or Outriders
-etc…
Im sure there are more but Im tired of typing lol

EDIT
@Peregrin
Thank God. Would you really prefer to spend 40$ for failcast versions of them with a ‘bonus’ hideously-ugly ‘knight of the citadel’ instead of 15 for the two parts you really need in nice metal? (this is intended as a statement, not argument)

[Peregrin]

@Peregrin
Thank God. Would you really prefer to spend 40$ for failcast versions of them with a ‘bonus’ hideously-ugly ‘knight of the citadel’ instead of 15 for the two parts you really need in nice metal? (this is intended as a statement, not argument)

I'm refering more to the plastics. It would be nice to have a single horn, banner, or alternate head included on those sprues. I'm quite happy with most of the metals, except to agree that the commons would be great to have in plastics as well.

[Brother Galfridus]

@Galfridus
Really? I’m not arguing, but I am curious as to where you get your information. I mean, I know the plastic itself is cheap but I know nothing about the moulds. My understanding was they were simple spin-cast, correct? If so a spin-cast mold isn’t that expensive, it’s the machine that costs, and I’m pretty sure the machine is similar for the metal ones. But yeah, the metal itself in raw materials is definitely more expensive.

I guess my point is even assuming you’re correct, inexpensive plastic and expensive molds + expensive metal and inexpensive moulds =expensive. They should balance each other out. GW may not sell enough plastics to make up the cost of the mold….but they sure as hell don’t sell enough metals to make-up the cost of the materials either. Why they don’t transition away from mass metal molds is the question.

Bearing in mind I'm just a guy on the other end of the internet from the point of view of anyone reading this post. My info is based off of meeting the company that makes the moulds for wargames companies at Salute a couple of years back. Seriously impressive to see a mould for a sprue in the flesh. Also a few very close friends have gone into the model making industry.

Plastic sprues are made using a technique called injection moulding. Liquid polystyrene plastic is injected at high pressure into metal moulds. The cutting of the moulds is where the initial cost is primarily. You have to be sure you will sell enough of the final product to cover the costs and make profit very quickly. It would be no use having to wait 6 months to break even on your investment there.

Metal models are made using rubber moulds that are very cheap in comparison. I can pop down to my local model shop and buy all the materials to make one. So from a business stand point you don't have to recoup an initial investment cost as much but you do have to consistently give yourself a good profit after the cost of materials. GW very clearly made a profit on every single metal model they made. Tin is the main part to white metal models and the price of tin has increased an eye watering amount over the past decade even including periods of sharp decline in price. The resin in finecast is not only cheaper but also stable and can be moulded using the same techniques as metal models.

You must be joking, look at how much finecast has come out in the WFB and 40K, they must not have any expectations of high sales then. Most of this release was just a rerelease or an additional sculpt of something they probably already had sitting on the shelf (the easterling mounted characters for example). LoTR also takes fewer models to play than the other systems, no one will play with 5 gorgoroth beasts, or 5 dwellers, or 5 named heroes( since one can not do that ). Makes sense for them not to release such things in plastic and pay for a mold. However we probably will play 6 kataphrakts ( more in WoTR). There are also no alternative models to be made out of these releases, unlike the coven throne or the doomsday ark. GW did included the needed bits to upgrade one plastic cavalry to a captain or horn blower or banner bearer , so maybe that is an alternative model.

Just take a look at what in WHFB and 40k and LOTR is plastic. High sale items. Not to long ago only troops/core were available in plastic with a few exceptions. Finecast is being used the same as metal used to be, for items that will not sell in the same bulk as the basic trooper. Now look at the plastic characters, monsters and very specific pieces of terrain that are out for 40k/WHFB. Expect these items to be around for a long time. Why couldn't LOTR get some plastic love? The watcher would have been awesome in plastic as would the gorgoroth beast. No one will buy 5 but who is going to buy 5 Chaos Lords on Manticore?

Making the kataphrakts in plastic is good for us and a decent business decision for GW. Not making the LOTR monsters in plastic is an admission that they do not expect them to sell as well as the monsters in WHFB. The finecast monsters in 40k/WHFB are simply reissues of existing sculpts, new ones are plastic.

I do love the new releases and will enjoy playing SBG and WOTR regardless. Command bits in plastic boxes with the new warband system would have rocked even more.

[Stargorger]

I'm refering more to the plastics. It would be nice to have a single horn, banner, or alternate head included on those sprues. I'm quite happy with most of the metals, except to agree that the commons would be great to have in plastics as well.

Oh, right. lol. I knew that ;-) And I agree.

@Galfridus (cool SN by the way)
Ah. Well I stand corrected then :-) Still...I dunno. I'm assuming they make one metal mold and that's it, right? It's not like they have to toss the mold everytime they cast something? Seems to be it would be a good investment long term, especially if they were trying to re-invigorate the line (like now) or prepping for a new release (The Hobbit).

That said. What I've seen says the resin isn't as nice quality or cleanly cast as the metal. And from the little resin casting I've done myself, lol, I imagine it's not easy. I understand wanting stuff in metal that you don't expect a return on. But honestly I think they are making a self-fulfilling prophecy. They wont GET a good return on, say, Rohan Royal Guard UNTIL they do the plastic cast, but because they don't, people can't afford as many, and they see that and cast them in metal. And people see the metal and don't buy as many. Etc..

[Zogash]

But honestly I think they are making a self-fulfilling prophecy. They wont GET a good return on, say, Rohan Royal Guard UNTIL they do the plastic cast, but because they don't, people can't afford as many, and they see that and cast them in metal. And people see the metal and don't buy as many. Etc..

Very true. Same goes for High Elven Spearmen and Fiefdom warriors. I'd be the first to buy several boxes of each (probably 4 or more for mounted RRG), but until they come out in plastic I simply can't afford to get the numbers I'd need to make them work - so I don't buy any at all. I have come up with a potentially worthwhile all-mounted Rohan list, but to pull it off I'd need 25 RRG and 5 Sons of Eorl! But 246 quid for 30 models?! And another 65,60 for the dismounted versions in case they lose their horses?! *faints*

[Stargorger]

@Zogash
Exactly. I’m with you there. I’d love to have a large contingent of Black Numenoreans or Men-at-Arms of Dol Amroth but, that’s not gonna happen until they make them in plastics, cut their metal prices to 1/3, or somebody sells an army containing them for ridiculously cheap.

[Leonardis]

Wishful thinking!!! Still you never know!

[Noobie2k7]

Same as i want hobbit plastics XD I'm not starting a hobbit army while they come in packs of 4.

[Lord_Goober]

heh. I got lucky at Adepticon this last weekend during the bitz swapping/selling session on Friday night. I bought a box full of hobbits from a guy for $80 + a metal WFB Archaeon Mounted. Box had 96 models in it. All mounted hobbits, all of the named character hobbits in the shire section except for Lobelia (no Farmer Maggot but his dogs were there, found a Farmer Maggot later in the con at one of the vendors), and then I think it was 31 archers, 18 shirrifs, 31 warriors and a hornblower. Now if I could only find some 70 dirt cheap ruffians somewhere so I could do a themed Scouring of the Shire pair of lists for Bilbo's Birthday Bash in November.

[smaul]

heh. I got lucky at Adepticon this last weekend during the bitz swapping/selling session on Friday night. I bought a box full of hobbits from a guy for $80 + a metal WFB Archaeon Mounted. Box had 96 models in it. All mounted hobbits, all of the named character hobbits in the shire section except for Lobelia (no Farmer Maggot but his dogs were there, found a Farmer Maggot later in the con at one of the vendors), and then I think it was 31 archers, 18 shirrifs, 31 warriors and a hornblower. Now if I could only find some 70 dirt cheap ruffians somewhere so I could do a themed Scouring of the Shire pair of lists for Bilbo's Birthday Bash in November.

nice score there!! Jealous.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

Now if I could only find some 70 dirt cheap ruffians somewhere so I could do a themed Scouring of the Shire pair of lists for Bilbo's Birthday Bash in November.

Check out some historical manufacturers that do Dark Ages or Medieval - either unarmored Vikings/Saxons or just armed Medieval peasants should do the trick and will cost a fraction of what you're likely to pay for the GW metals.

[Lord_Goober]

while that is a good plan, the particular tournament I would be playing this army at is at a GW Battle Bunker this year so that would be utterly frowned upon.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

ah yes - bummer. Scour around - you may get lucky! I wouldn't expect them to demand a terribly high price on secondary market or from people looking to clear out some space.

[Fugazi]

from faeit 212
mid-september release:

Haldir with Bow 15-Sep-12 $16.50
Hobbits of the Shire 15-Sep-12 $19.75
Saruman the White 15-Sep-12 $16.50
Galadriel Protectress of Lothlorien 15-Sep-12 $16.50
Kings of Men 15-Sep-12 $29.75
Mauhur 15-Sep-12 $16.50
Sharky and Worm 15-Sep-12 $29.75
Corsair Bo'Sun and Captain 15-Sep-12 $24.75
Mounted Ringwraith 1 15-Sep-12 $24.75
Mounted Ringwraith 2 15-Sep-12 $24.75
Mounted Ringwraith 3 15-Sep-12 $24.75
Haradrim Hasharin 15-Sep-12 $16.50
The Three Hunters 15-Sep-12 $36.25
Shagrat 15-Sep-12 $16.50

[Tarax]

Probably all Finecast releases of previously metal models.