My year of hell with Dark Eldar

[Sami]

Also, just remember that you don't need to destroy a vehicle to stop it from being a threat (albeit temporarily). Immobilizing transports will force their passengers out. Preventing an enemy vehicle from shooting for a turn is often enough (unless it can shrug off those results like GK), etc. While every DE player dreams of having first turn and alpha-striking most of the enemy off the table, this will (almost!) never happen in reality. Instead, you need to use your movement and weapons (and cover, hence why LOS blocking stuff is vital) to hide from some of his army, and shutting down the rest (whether it be through stunned, shaken, etc).

When I play DE, I generally plan my movement and shooting around preventing my opponent from shooting back in his turn. Nothing more annoying than having your vehicles which can see the enemy unable to shoot due to damage table results, while the ones who can shoot are either out of range or out of LOS!

[Denny]

I have been playing Dark Eldar for over a year now (I have over 3000 points painted) and I think I have ALMOST just about begun to get the hang of them. I Managed to wipe out a Space Wolf army on Sunday (well . . . two land speeders were left). It was partly luck but very satisfying after so many recent losses.

I wouldn't get rid of the army yet. With 6th edition coming this summer the rules may change and you might suddenly find them a little more competitive/forgiving.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I, too, think the terrain thing is huge. A lot of terrain collections still have their roots in previous edition setups where area terrain blocked LoS through it. The rulebook guidelines are fine: on a 6x4 table (24 square feet total), you should have 6 square feet of terrain (traditionally packed into one 3x2 table quarter to verify), of which 1/3 - two full square feet worth of terrain - should block Line of Sight. Does that happen? Yes. Does it happen often? Heck no.

One quick read of 5th edition gave me the conclusion that the game would mostly involve everything being in LoS and everything getting a 4+ cover save. I have seen absolutely nothing to disabuse me of that notion in the years since. And for Dark Eldar, it's a real pity.

[Inquisitor Shego]

I've found with Dark Eldar the problem isn't our list, or even our enemy's list. The problem is how unkillable vehicles are in this edition. Its no surprise most of the tourney lists these days are mech of some variety. You need a 3+ to hit a chimera, 5+ to penetrate, 5+ to destroy if shooting it head on. Lets be honest, its not easy. The only exception to this is the Dark Eldar of course, for we're armour 11 at best, and most of our vehicles are not open topped.

Imperial Guard Mech have battered me countless times, mainly because their weakness (being T3 5+SV) is negated by being in an armour. Still, we can win by grabbing objectives at the last moment, or my personal favourite = 10 razorwing flocks + 5 beast masters + baron sathonyx. A bit pricy, but ultimately lethal.

Don't lose faith. We are an army with a nack, and when you find it, it is very satisfying

[BEARO]

Hey man, just keep working at it. Dark Eldar is indeed, not for a lot of people. We're paper tin and die to a swift breeze, but we can pack a hell of a bunch.

Take advantage of terrain, and use your own ships to cover your ass. A fight can go either horribly right, or horribly wrong depending on how much terrain is on the board. Check out this post for more detail.

Once you get a hang of it, I bet you'll feel a lot better about your winnings. Dark Eldar is a very technical army, the definition of a glass cannon and epitomizes the true meaning of generalship (minus Venom spam).

PS - Mech IG is probably your worst matchup.

[a1elbow]

I, too, think the terrain thing is huge. A lot of terrain collections still have their roots in previous edition setups where area terrain blocked LoS through it. The rulebook guidelines are fine: on a 6x4 table (24 square feet total), you should have 6 square feet of terrain (traditionally packed into one 3x2 table quarter to verify), of which 1/3 - two full square feet worth of terrain - should block Line of Sight. Does that happen? Yes. Does it happen often? Heck no.

One quick read of 5th edition gave me the conclusion that the game would mostly involve everything being in LoS and everything getting a 4+ cover save. I have seen absolutely nothing to disabuse me of that notion in the years since. And for Dark Eldar, it's a real pity.

I think more people are working on LOS blockers now. I know when I got back into 40k it was after a long time off (I stopped right as 4th hit) and the terrain I made was very 3rd centric. I've recently made a lot more that is better for 5th because of how frustrated I got playing DE even at home.

[Memnos]

Something about lances.

They hit 2/3rds of the time, then penetrate only 1/3rd of the time, then only destroy 1/3rd of the time. That means if you have 27 Dark Lances, you're wrecking 2 vehicles a turn(Yes, on average. Some games, you'll wreck 27 in the first turn, some you won't wreck any in 6 turns. No you shouldn't plan your games around either of those things happening). Dark Lances do not wreck things as well as you want unless you kit yourself out with a whole whackload of them.

When it comes to shooting, just remember that 'Everything counts in large amounts'. Back when Ork Klanz were allowed thanks to White Dwarfs, my 1000 point list had 36 Rokkit Launchas. That's 36 S 8 weapons, AP 3 weapons. On 1000 points. My current 1500 list has 60 flesh hounds for most anti-tank. That's 180 S5 attacks on the rear of most vehicles. Even hitting on 6s, penetrating on 6s, that's a few dead tanks a turn. Usually, there's a reroll involved thanks to Skarbrand.

That's only one tactic, but it's one that has worked well for me. If there's a miniscule chance of a model doing something, then buying a crapton of said models means I am likely to achieve my aim. Best part: It tends to be remarkably resilient, too, as losing 5-6 models doesn't really slow me down in terms of firepower.

[Sami]

The stats of Dark Lances are also the reason that Reavers have their use. People often mistake rolling 2D6 for armour penetration as being mathematically the same as rolling a D12, but in reality rather than there being 12 different possible outcomes there are 36. When adding the two dice together, you are much more likely to end up having a combined total of either 6, 7, or 8 than something at the extreme ends of the range (2, 3 or 11, 12).

Against most target, Heat Lances have almost half as much chance of failing to glance and/or penetrate than regular Dark Lances. So where-as a Dark Lance would fail to at least glance Av12 50% of the time, a Heat Lance would only fail 28% of the time.

Here's a handy table showing the success rate (for failure rate, subtract the percentage from 100). Please let me know if I've had a complete maths fail.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

It's also AP1, which is very handy. The net chance to outright destroy a vehicle with a BS4 Dark Lance or Heat Lance respectively are:

Armor 10
Dark Lance: 14.81%
Heat Lance: 28.70%
Ratio: Heat lance is 1.94 times as effective

Armor 11
Dark Lance: 11.11%
Heat Lance: 24.07%
Ratio: Heat lance is 2.28 times as effective

Armor 12
Dark Lance: 7.41%
Heat Lance: 20.99%
Ratio: Heat lance is 2.83 times as effective

[blurrymadness]

Something about lances.
They hit 2/3rds of the time, then penetrate only 1/3rd of the time, then only destroy 1/3rd of the time.

Problems with this:
-This assumes AV12. Transports max at AV12, but the teams that pull off spam best use AV11 or have AV10 side armor; meaning the number of destroyed can go up substantially (+50-100%)
-This assumes that only *destroy* results matter. While vehicles are tough this edition it's not uncommon (in our group at least) to end up blowing off every weapon and immobilizing a thing almost as often as just destroying it. Further, getting a Stunned result is enough to last you a turn. If that's the difference between Wyches getting there and not; I'd say it's just as good as a destroy.


Seeing lances in play, they're actually quite impressive at DE prices *even in 5th.* We'll see what 6th does, but I'm willing to say they'll be more effective than they are right now. Also, comparing your 36 BS2 rokkits with 27 BS4 lances is no contest; Rokkits will do only as well per hit as lances at AV12-, and will only hit half as often, on less mobile platforms that are (for the most part) about as easy to kill as DE AND at only 24". If you have them hidden in squads then you also have to add the addendum that you waste nearly all anti-personnel fire when you fire them.

[mkhurly]

@Mike

My strategy typically goes:
1) Vect= 1st turn.. if you can't take Vect make sure your raiders are hiding behind cover or other vehicles (ravagers).
2) Wyches w/ raider move up, disembark, fleet, and assault.. destroy enemy tanks/transports 1st turn
3) Wracks & Grotesques move into position
4) Liquifier+Assault
5) ???
6) Profit

Raiders are your friend, use their speed to concentrate on his flanks, never engage all of his army at once. Use the force.[/QUOTE]

I love it!!! I'm a dark eldar player and i love stragegy 5 and 6. ??? Profit!!! Go underwear Gnomes!!!

[Sami]

Problems with this:
-This assumes AV12. Transports max at AV12, but the teams that pull off spam best use AV11 or have AV10 side armor; meaning the number of destroyed can go up substantially (+50-100%)

I believe one of the best spams is still IG Chimera spam. Guard are one of the hardest match-ups for DE in general, and front Av12 on transports with 5 god-damned firepoints is one of the reasons why .

Cheers for the destroyed maths NC - really didn't want to work that one out

[Fallencarcass]

Love my Dark Eldar. I've won more than I've lost and when I've won too much I've used less harsh units.
The problem might be your meta? DE are kinda a paper/rock/scissors army and if you're paper and only fight against scissors then you won't have a good time unless you let go of winning.

The only Fantasy army I liked playing was Skaven years back. I was horrible with them. Half my force wasn't painted and I kept blowing myself up. When I lost I didn't care and when I won it was amazing!
I tried Bretonnians and I kept getting annoyed when anything went wrong. These are the awesome good guys knights! How could I roll so many 1s!

At this point I like my DE far more than my power armor other armies. When I mess up I mess up BAD. But DE are all dicks anyway, so it serves them right.
Still, I do win more than I lose. If you love them use them and just shrug off bad luck and wait for tactics to improve. If you hate them... stop playing stuff you hate.

A good lesson to buy 500 points at a time.

[BEARO]

I will quote something that Vakthai said a long time ago about Dark Eldar vs. IG (he's a IG player) that still holds true today:

IG are actually probably the worst thing DE have to face. Against massed AV 12, dark lances aren't exactly amazing. Multilasers glance and pen on the same values against their AV10 vehicles as the DE's lances do against the IG's AV12 tanks, but have three times the numbers of shots and inflict greater damage due to DE's vehicles generally being open topped. Other anti-infantry weapons can also be put to good use against DE vehicles, such as Heavy Bolters.

If you work out the math, chimeras versus even a Ravager aren't too far from an even match in a shooting war. Given that IG can get two Chimeras for one Ravager, it makes it very uneven.

Also, Multilasers and autocannons, two weapons very popular in IG armies, not only are exceedingly effective against DE vehicles but also inflict ID on DE characters, ignore FNP on most of their units and wound just about everything on a 2+, usually ignoring saves. Then of course there are dirt cheap Hydras which not only have very effective anti-light infantry/anti-skimmer guns but also ignore one of the DE's most powerful defensive actions, which is moving flat out with skimmers.

Additionally, DE splinter weapons wounding on a 4+ isn't very impressive against T3 infantry, they're basically AP5 lasguns at that point.

DE are very, very good at destroying small numbers of very powerful things, they make mockeries of terminator armies and stuff like Land Raiders and Monstrous Creatures. They get butchered when they have to face large quantities of mediocre things.

It looks like in this edition at least, we're forced to get our slaves from somewhere else :P

[Marshal]

I feel the pain on the inability to destroy vehicles. Dark Eldar in general seem to have an issue with this (least in my area) and it's retarded why. I've watched them focus for a turn on a Land Raider and fail to kill it, watching it destroy flanks by itself, crippling the poor Dark Eldar.
Kill points are also an issue as well. Flying paper mache air planes around tend no to last long. My favourite is killing a raider with a storm bolter from a drop pod (specially when the meltagun from the pod squad fails...).

Anyways, that's neither here nor there. I play Dark Eldar also.
My suggestions are target priority, target priority, target priority. If you determine the imminent threat at the time is a support tank, you don't have to destroy it, just glance or pen so it can't shoot and move on. If it's a transport, if it can't move that's fine also.
Be sure you have everything in check so it's able to target multiple units and focus on your priorities. If it's not possible to target multiple units, fire those units before others which have their target also in their sights. I tend to fire vehicles first, then the infantry.
Fire vehicles on units to whittle them down so when an infantry squad fires on them, they are able to wipe them out to get the pain token.
Don't over think and keep flexible.
Things of yours is going to die, never plan on stuff being around from turn to turn. The moment your grand plan hinges on something surviving is when it fails.
Keep backups in place at all times. I've charged fire warriors with an archon watching him wiff it with his attacks and get beaten down in combat, not run down, fully and brutally beaten down failing his first shadowfield save and the rest to kill him in one round. Dark Eldar are fragile.
The movement phase is the most important in the Dark Eldar. Think about your turns in advanced, make a plan, but keep it fluid.
Keep options open.
If the opportunity happens to cut an opponent's unit off from the main force, do it.
Flickerfields! Best 10 point upgrade in the game!
I saw you posted something about moving raiders up 12", jumping warriors out, shooting the vehicle to do nothing and watching the warriors get gunned down. My question, why are you getting those warriors out??? Stay a bit of a distance away with the warriors. If it means not moving and getting half the shots with the rifles so be it. Their best chance of survival is in their transport.
Warriors are garbage in combat, trueborn are slightly better than garbage in combat, these units should never be in combat.
Pick your combats and choose them wisely. Dark Eldar have that advantage, they choose when and where combats happen.
Move raiders in such a fashion that they can't be charged but even if they get shot down, the wyches inside can still make it somewhere the next turn (meaning, keep them slightly over 12" away from units and 15" away from access points on vehicles for most races) if you can't make combat when you need to.
Try and get the opponent to break his forces up a bit. Never take on the full force at once. Take it apart unit by unit.
Closing the same way as I opened: Target priority, target priority, target priority.

[blurrymadness]

I believe one of the best spams is still IG Chimera spam. Guard are one of the hardest match-ups for DE in general, and front Av12 on transports with 5 god-damned firepoints is one of the reasons why .

I didn't mean to imply Chimeras are a bad unit or a good matchup for DE, I meant to imply that his post was an exaggeration of facts. People can moan here all they want but DE has excellent Anti-tank, they just don't have survivability. At the end of the day it's a glass cannon army that lost it's ability to spam lances quite as well for the ability for it's troops to perform a bit better. It's surprising the loss the things in favor of less lance spam, but frankly it still spams them fine; just not in it's troop slots any more.

DE's lances are as good as it gets people; Haywire blasters are also amazing, and Heat lances are worthy of mention.

[Sami]

In summary: lances are good but not great, and if you really want powerful anti-tank you need either Heat Lances or Voidravens (people often forget their lances are S9).

[scapegoatboy69]

In summary: lances are good but not great, and if you really want powerful anti-tank you need either Heat Lances or Voidravens (people often forget their lances are S9).

Ravagers hit harder than Voidravens in all cases, unless you've shelled out for missiles.

I think my beef with DLs (and Blasters, really) is that they live in slots I want to use for other things. If only Scourges had a better price per Dark Lance.


Slightly off topic, but since someone brought up the old codex... I'd totally sacrifice assorted small animals to get Mandrakes their old deployment rules back.

Or get two Blasters (or Lances) on a Warrior squad.

Or Warriors costing 8 points.

Or putting an Archon & Haemy on Jetbikes.

Or Hoverboards.

Or the Talos skimming.

Or that nifty "drop the guys while turboing" upgrade for Raiders.

Or taking cheaper Raiders without guns.

Or being able to take WWPs on squad leaders.

Or Disintegrators being Strength 7.

...that said, I do appreciate the new 'dex. I mean, we get Venoms. Freaking Venoms! It's great that Dark Eldar can now be known for having an incredibly large variety of tournament builds. None of them get spammy, especially if you like Blasters and Venoms. Did I mention Venoms yet? Just gotta love 'em, those Venoms.*

*This post has fewer Venoms in it than the average Comp DE list.


EDIT: Has anyone else noticed that your transport has about the same chance of getting wrecked or exploded when you Flat Out than just moving 12" or less and taking a Flickerfield save?

One Marine with a Missile Launcher has a 15.6% chance of killing a Flat Out Raider. A generic Flickerfield save gives a 15.9%.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Ravagers hit harder than Voidravens in all cases, unless you've shelled out for missiles.

Not quite true. The two void lances ever-so-slightly edge out the three dark lances in chance-to-destroy a single A12 target with at least two weapons (20.62% vs. 20.99%) (e.g. firing at the front of an undamaged chimera with the game-winning goal of disembarking its contents). Generally speaking I consider the VoidRaven to be comparable anti-tank, but you do want to fire it at heavier targets and use ordinary darklight against A10-A11 when available.

I'd totally sacrifice assorted small animals to get Mandrakes their old deployment rules back.

But... Those rules were terrible and useless. The battle was over by the time they arrived, which was just as well because at the time they're so incredibly pathetic that their arrival would only swing close combat against you.

EDIT: Has anyone else noticed that your transport has about the same chance of getting wrecked or exploded when you Flat Out than just moving 12" or less and taking a Flickerfield save?

Yes, but the significant difference is that the Raider is just as likely to be wrecked as exploded if you move flat out, while if you don't you're twice as likely to explode as get wrecked (subject to other vehicle damage modifiers such as AP, of course). I've found this to be a surprisingly substantial advantage to going flat-out!

[Rated_lexxx]

The big advantage the ravager has over the voidravens is it cost less. I don't want to spend extra points( i think that is how much the raven cost) to get a very slight better chance to pen