Mantic Restic vs Plastic vs Metal Discussion Thread.

[scarletsquig]

Yeah, it's pretty clear by this point that doing restic instead of plastic is an economic decision, not a case of it not being possible to get plastic produced quickly.

As Nightsword said a while ago, it was a choice between "Corporation marines plastic sprue", and "Entire Corporation range + Entire Veer-Myn range + Project Pandora" as far as Mantic's production budget for that 3-month window went.

With Mantic's initial elves and undead, it's possible that all sorts of other factors were at play... high startup capital for the business, Renedra possibly offering a reduced rate in exchange for big multi-sprue contracts since not many people were using them back then. We don't know. VAT rise of 5% is definitely a concrete factor that has raised the price since the early days.

We'll probably see a return to plastics (in a big way) in a few years, whenever Mantic is big enough to drum up enough capital, and the need to "get loads of stuff out there" cools down a bit.

[The Salmon Lord]

I'd also say they are concentrating on Warpath a lot. Thats a more skirmish game so sales of figures are likely to be lower and demand a more individualist feel for each figure which restic gives over a standard sprue. For example I'm fine paying 12 quid for 10 corporation figures as thats a viable unit but not the same for 10 skeletons that are just as likely to be in the middle of a 40 skeleton unit. But for that I demand a better figure.

[Sean_OBrien]

To avoid derailing the other thread...

What is it about super glue that scares you? Mantic's "resin" models are just as easy to trim convert and work with as polystyrene. The cost of them is still cheaper than GW's "plastics". So the only thing I can come up with for the dislike is that you are afraid of super glue. I say buy a good glue and accelerator and you won't have anymore problems.

Quite simply - I have nothing against restic...and actually work with a variety of plastics on a regular basis. However, I no longer use super glue - not because I have a problem with it, but because of CA allergies. I don't have one, but my wife does. As soon as I open a tube of super glue in the house...she starts to develop a cough. If she is in the same room as the glue is in, the cough turns to a hack, watery eyes and general difficulty breathing. Doesn't matter if I use the ventilation fan which I use for regular solvents either. The sysmptoms persist for several hours after exposure.

Now, according to her doctor, upwards of 5% of the population has or is prone to developing a super glue allergy. Since super glue is far and away the easiest way to work with resin miniatures (restic or otherwise) - it is unfortunate that 5% of the population is likely removed as customers...as most have little patience for working with epoxies...

But I don't. I use a 2 part epoxy (also a plastic...but not the plastic that most miniature collectors think of when you say plastic) when I need to glue two things together that can not be stuck with solvent cements.

I use three types of solvent cements in the house (have more in the garage/shop but many of those are industrial). Two from Plastruct (Plastic Weld and Bondene) and also Tenax 7R. Between the three of those I can glue the vast majority of items together (including ABS which seems to perplex some).

http://www.plastruct.com/picat/GLUES_TOOLS_9.pdf

Now in terms of the other plastics - polycarbonate, acrylic, ABS, polystyrene, and a half dozen less common plastics can all be glued using solvent cements. Nylons and polypropylenes are not generally used for injection molding of miniatures (or in any other manner relating to gaming other than making dice and dice cups).

The terms being used are very basic because they don't need to be complex. Your average miniature consumer looks at materials in a very simple manner 1) Pewter - they don't care about the particular alloy used and the amount of tin versus copper, antimony, bismuth or anything else. Some get a little freaked out buy lead though. 2) Plastic - hard plastic, which is glue able using a solvent cement. Of course, how hard it is can vary - but that isn't generally the major concern...just that you can stick to bits together with a magic glue that turns them into one bit by melting the two surfaces slightly. 3) Resin - not metal, but not plastic. Most of them don't care if it is a urethane resin or any other form of resin...as long as there aren't a bunch of air bubbles. Might as well toss in 4) as it shows up from time to time - Bendy plastics. That would be things like the polypropylene or polyethlene which is used for things like the cheap toy soldiers. Most don't like those too much.

Now, if Mantic thinks that resin will scare customers off - they need to better educate their customers. I would bet that more customers are annoyed by the not-Plastic than they are of the resin itself.

[Amorphous]

Having someone in your house that is allergic to superglue is a very good reason to avoid it and I can respect that. I just wanted you to be aware that when you use terms like thermoplastics which again most gamers don't know or care but then sum it up as anything can be dissolved or melded together by solvents you are leaving out a good chunk of materials and misinforming people. My whole point is when someone says Mantic needs to educate people but then goes about spreading false information and half truths on various forums it is counter productive to those of us who would try and educate people in Mantics favor.

It also isn't Mantic that thinks the term resin will scare people off it is a common fact. If you read threads and comments in the gaming community as a whole you would realize the damage that a certain companie's massive air bubble "resin" models has done. If anything I think the gaming community as a whole needs to be educated that resin is plastic, and understand the difference between soluble injection molded materials like polystyrene and super glue requiring casted materials.

I don't think enabling the ignorance in the gaming community should be a requirement of model selling companies and when they say plastic they are being honest. I think some industry standard terminology like injected plastic and casted plastic needs to be embraced to eliminate confusion, but I don't see staunch competitors embracing that anytime soon. I also think labels that say super glue required should be used.

Oh and by the way as far as the metals go very few companies use the term pewter anymore, they just say metal.

Also how can you say you have no problem with restic after saying in your other post that you are not interested in it and will only buy "hard plastic" which is really costly to get into production and can't be justified without a large enough consumer demand.

[AlexHolker]

I wonder whether Trollforged Miniatures' Trollcast (or whatever they're using for DFG's models) might be a solution to one of the two disadvantages of Mantic's restic. It wouldn't fix the problem of needing general purpose glues instead of having the option to just use plastic cement, but it might let them make models at proper plastic prices without the proper plastic startup costs.

[Sean_OBrien]

I wonder whether Trollforged Miniatures' Trollcast (or whatever they're using for DFG's models) might be a solution to one of the two disadvantages of Mantic's restic. It wouldn't fix the problem of needing general purpose glues instead of having the option to just use plastic cement, but it might let them make models at proper plastic prices without the proper plastic startup costs.

I don't really see that as being anything ground breaking as of yet (would need to get a hold of some first to actually see what it is made out of though). Resin casting is cheap and really not that difficult to do well. The start up costs are very low on regular resin casting - and it is fairly easily scaled up to large scale production. With the large variety of readily available urethane resins that are available, there is little reason for the reputation of resin being brittle (that is more a problem with the caster choosing the wrong formula than an inherent defect in resin itself).

The only nice thing that I could see with "trollcast" would be if it scales down well like white metal casting does. If I just need to cast up a few bits, I turn on my smelting pot - dust some talc on my molds and spin it. Takes very little to setup and cast. If I need to cast resin - there is a bit more effort involved, so casting one or two pieces really is a pain. If it is something that I need dozens or more of though, it is attractive - the costs are much lower by volume...even with the waste. The plastics that I have used which are as friendly as white metal though tend to degrade with reuse...something which white metal doesn't have problems with. So, after I reheat it a half dozen or more times - the plastic starts to fail and become unusable.

Also how can you say you have no problem with restic after saying in your other post that you are not interested in it and will only buy "hard plastic" which is really costly to get into production and can't be justified without a large enough consumer demand.

I have no problem recommending restic to friends and acquaintances. I have no interest in buying fantasy restic miniatures from Mantic - they just don't interest me personally. However, for someone who is looking for new miniatures...either getting started or building a new army, they are a good option. I have a few on my shelf which I purchased just to see what the material was like - but that will likely be it.

It is an issue with where I am in my collecting "stage of life". I don't see much in the Mantic catalog that is of interest to me - especially not the fantasy portion of it (which is why I also said that a Warpath Kickstarter would likely get my backing to a level of several thousand dollars as opposed to the $175 I kicked in on the KoW campaign). I don't care for GW style fantasy - and Mantic follows suit in many ways.

Regarding the cost to get it into production - it isn't cheap...but it isn't that expensive either. The return on the investment is also much higher than it is with metal or resin (or whatever you prefer to call restic). I get about 200-300 spins out of one of my metal molds and it costs me about $20 to replace the mold. I have a few things which a friend cut aluminum injection molds for - those should last somewhere around 10,000-100,000 or so shots. Although they are pretty simple molds (weapons mostly) - it cost me about $300 for the blanks and a rebuilt transmission (all in for probably $1500). When I need some more, I call him up and he runs a cycle on his injection machines - hasn't actually charged me for materials yet.

Now I am not suggesting that Mantic should look at bartering to get their molds made for them - but, the actual costs involved need not be that prohibitive. There are a lot of companies out there...in Europe, the US, Japan and China who are able to do injection mold design and tooling. Sometimes it helps to shop around and be realistic about your needs (the tool steel molds will likely survive long past their actual usefulness - I know companies like Trumpeter and have molds in use which are almost as old as I am). Good quality aluminum tooling will cost a fraction of steel and probably last as long as a company like Mantic will ever need them to last (considering the tendency to redesign miniatures and the like every 5-10 years to meet current trends).

From dealing with commercial mold making contracts, to my own experiences with the various technologies as well as that of friends who do tool making for a living - I don't really fall in line to well with the plastics are OMG expensive to get started in. They are a heck of a lot more expensive than metals...that is for certain (I cast metals in the corner of my garage on a regular basis using a spincaster I built for about $200) - but they are not that expensive in the grand scheme of things.

[Max Jet]

From dealing with commercial mold making contracts, to my own experiences with the various technologies as well as that of friends who do tool making for a living - I don't really fall in line to well with the plastics are OMG expensive to get started in. They are a heck of a lot more expensive than metals...that is for certain (I cast metals in the corner of my garage on a regular basis using a spincaster I built for about $200) - but they are not that expensive in the grand scheme of things.

That is actually a very old debate we had about 3 times in the Mantic subforum here. There were a lot of numbers floating around about the molds being incredibly expensive,( somewhere around 40 000 for the 2 men sprues Mantic keeps on using), while I have constantly expressed my doubt as the estimates I got where significantly lower (given by actual companies). We never got any official numbers so the debate just repeated itself over and over. There is however this one point I had to agree to.

[Amorphous]

As I stated before I have been working in injection molding for over 10 years now. I work on the processing end of it though. Figuring out the adjustment needed to make good parts with whatever type of resin is being used. I couldn't tell you exactly what it costs to get a tool designed and built, it really varies based on shot size and quality of detail. However I do know from our manager meetings that it is fairly expensive as in thousands of dollars. Next time i get a plastic kit I will bring a sprue into work and ask the tooling head if he has any ideas of an approximate cost to get from concept to manufacturing.
Of course since your friend is using aluminum molds that are only good for 10,000 to 100,000 shots that might be why the cost seems so much cheaper to you. In the industry molds are usually built from steel because it is nothing for us to run 10,000 to 100,00 shots with a mold each time it goes into a press. The cost of building a steel tool is going to be drastically higher than aluminum obviously.

[BobtheInquisitor]

Is it higher than building 3 or 4 aluminum molds?

[Sean_OBrien]

Is it higher than building 3 or 4 aluminum molds?

About twice as expensive has been my experience.

The molds which are mine (and only mine - designed by me and cut for me) are aluminum. The friend who runs the molds and cut them for me does both aluminum and steel for his own products depending on the predicted needs of the design (his business is niche as well - so it isn't quite at the level of needing millions of most things...though due to the nature of the work, he rarely if ever needs to redesign existing products).

I have actually worked as a project manager on several projects which sourced and used injection molds for industrial purposes. Things like air filter assemblies, mixer valves and the like (some very simple - others much more complex than a miniature sprue). The most expensive mold I had ever written a contract for was for something about the size of the dashboard of a small car - and that was $75,000 and change. Most were in the $15-30K range for steel molds (Class 102 or 101) while aluminum molds were almost always less than $10K (Class 103 or 104).

Regarding the lifespan of the molds - yes, steel will last longer. Yes, it isn't that unheard of for a single run of a high demand item to have several hundred thousand parts per run. However, I would be surprised if GW even does a hundred thousand during the life of an average mold that they use. While I haven't been doing that type of work now for several years, I still get various trade magazines and there are certain aluminum blanks which are rated at over 2,000,000 shots as well. 2,000,000 is a fantastically huge number for miniatures (that would probably be an entire years worth of everything GW does combined...each mold itself is probably used to make less than 10,000 sprues a year though).

Again, it isn't cheap - but it isn't that expensive. Most the high dollar figures that are bantered about are figures like 40,000 GBP (over $60,000). While you could definitely find a company that will charge that much, it wasn't the norm that I had seen.

[Amorphous]

Those numbers sound pretty accurate. The reason we don't see more injection molded polystyrene models from companies like Mantic is because they need to sell enough to get a return on their investment. That isn't hard for GW or historical mini companies to do but for a small company like Mantic it is a little bit more difficult. A lot of us are hoping that any extra money they have left over from the kickstarter will go into some injection mold tooling. Sean_OBrian sorry if it seems as if I got rude with you at all, it just really gets me agitated when people attack mantic for calling spincasted resins plastic, when they are. I do understand where you are coming from too though, there are certain terms however inaccurate that have become accepted by the miniature wargaming community at large.

[Sean_OBrien]

I do understand where you are coming from too though, there are certain terms however inaccurate that have become accepted by the miniature wargaming community at large.

For better or for worse, perception in reality. As was mentioned in the other thread regarding glues...it isn't just miniatures though. Model making companies as well have solidified the perception that plastic means solvent cement and resin is stuff that doesn't work with solvent cements. If you hit the Revell, Testors, Gunze, Tamiya or any other manufacturers site - they will sell plastic cement. Sometimes they will specify in the fine print which plastics it is designed for, but often they will not.

What would be nice is an open Kickstarter campaign - $20K (or whatever Mantic's price point is) to have an armies base troops done in plastic. $20K stretch goals to convert the special units into hard plastic as well. The costs on rewards would be much, much lower than they will be in for on the restic miniatures - so they could be more generous. I would imagine I could get in for a good $2000-3000 for an all plastic celestials army (have one similar in metal right now...but always nice to be able to bulk up with plastics).

[mattjgilbert]

It'll need a lot more than 20k to tool molds for polystyrene sprues. That's why we've not seen them much. I agree polystyrene* would be nice but I'm sure there's a solvent glue out there for the spincast plastic.


*I find it amusing that the polystyrene sprues have become known as "hard plastic" when of the two materials, it's much the softer one.

[Sean_OBrien]

*I find it amusing that the polystyrene sprues have become known as "hard plastic" when of the two materials, it's much the softer one.

I find that amusing. CD jewel cases are also made of polystyrene (one of thousands of formulas of it) and you could literally gut a fish with that it is so hard. The term hard plastic came about as a result of the early toy soldier kits which were made from PP or PE and the other common plastic used for models HIPS. The HIPS was more expensive to work with, but was a premium material due to the solvent cement used. You could weld joints so that there were no seams on models - but the tooling was more expensive because there could be no under cuts (the more bendy PE and PP allowed for small undercuts). Undercuts on a HIPS mold will result in mold lock - just about the worst thing that can ever happen to plastic tooling.

[Amorphous]

CD jewel cases are polycarbonate the black part that used to be inside the older ones is polystyrene. Polypropylene and polyethylene are actually very soft materials. As opposed to nylon which despite its uses in clothing creates a very hard final product when used in injection molding.

[Sean_OBrien]

CD jewel cases are polycarbonate.

Oriented PS generally - at least all of the stuff I have speced has been. Polycarbonate for that is more than a little bit of overkill. The black portion was generally regular polystyrene - though they might have changed that (not sure why they would though - in terms of cost, few things are cheaper than PS).

With most plastics - the physical properties can be widely altered by small adjustments in their formulation. Common forms of PP are quite soft (bendy...but not quite rubbery) but they also exist that are very hard. We used to use PP solely for battery casings due to its chemical resistance properties. If I remember correctly - it is also the material which is used for most the rubbermaid/sterilite/tupperware...which range from pretty soft to very hard. My wife's bowling ball is actually made of polyethylene - and I can guarantee that it is quite hard.

[Amorphous]

Yeah, I looked into it further and you're right the cd jewel cases are definitely not PC I should've realized by how brittle they are. Polycarbonate, polypropylene, polyethylene are fairly general terms. I guess it does go without saying that some polypro blends or manufacturers material are going to have slightly different properties, as well as the affects of the molding process. By varying the velocity and pressure on the 2nd stage you can pack out a part harder and tighter making a more solid final product. Generally speaking though PP, PE, HDPE, LDPE, and LLDPE are softer materials than say NY or PC. at least in injection molding. Which I will admit is the limit of my knowledge. I am not much of a chemist though and have very little experience with other molding processes.

If you're wifes bowling ball was made from polycarb with the same density it would be even harder but also a lot heavier, not roll quite as well when tossed down the lane, and be very susceptible to scratches. Another good way to tell with the different materials is softer ones have a lower processing temp. Your polys (PS, PE, PP) tend to process around 300 - 400 degrees whereas polycarbs process around 500 - 600 degrees. Of course the hardest product we make with the highest melt temp is Ultem which is a Polyetherimide. http://www.sabic-ip.com/gep/Plastics...ine/ultem.html.