Know No Fear discussion – Teasers and Spoilers

[Dragannia]

This was a fantastic book.

The main thing I liked was the writing style. Specifically, the fact that as soon as I read it, it felt like an Ultramarines book. The sentence structures were curt and report-like when it came to dealing with Ultramarines. The prizing of efficiency. And yet, the lack of emotion was in itself a sort of emotion and I didn't feel like the book was cold at all.

I didn't like the rushed plot, however. I would have preferred it if Guiliman had stepped up and done some super Ultra-tactics and strategy and kicked some Word Bearer ****. The

anathame injury seems to set up for some pretty foreboding stuff.

[Longstrider]

As I was reading it, I enjoyed it greatly.

As I was reflecting on it after, I concluded that there were only parts that I liked, and those parts were so good it let me overlook the rest. I'll be honest here and say that I'm with SunTzu on the bolter porn thing - and I also think that, after his explanation of what he means by it, you're being uncharitably stubborn to pretend he doesn't have a specific meaning in mind. I found that the problem with the whole x kilometres, y seconds, z dead thing was that it was just too much too fast, and frankly I skipped a whole lot of those scenes. To be fair, I found most of the ground combat interesting, which is rare for me - I've quite enjoyed space combat scenes from BL before while my eyes tend to glaze over at extended descriptions of who punched whom where and with what.

While reading it, characters like Luciel and Tchure came real to me, but after the end of the book I find them largely forgettable. It's very much the same thing that happened between Kor Phaeron and Guilliman. We're told that Luciel and Tchure are bros, and we're told that K-P has some cool arguments for why we should all worship insane gods that just want to eat our souls. And then... not much comes of it. I was really shaping up for some dialogue with Guilliman where he reasoned through K-P's fanatical babble, but no, he just punched him instead. And, after a whole lot of reflection on how the Bearers screwed up by not ensuring the Ultramarines were dead, Guilliman proceeded to leave K-P with his secondary heart beating and his spine intact.

Yeah, I get that you can't really kill K-P or Erebus, but then, you know, maybe stop using them constantly? They're starting to become, to me, mustache-twirlers who just get away each time with a new scheme being concocted.

The style really screamed Ultramarines to me though. Lack-of-emotion as an emotion that Dragannia pointed out, I think, fits perfectly well with the Ultramarine mentality. In the 4E Chaos Codex what seems to be the case is that once all the mental discipline falls apart, there's a raging torrent of emotion within a Space Marine's mind. The Ultramarines have that discipline in spades, and I think the occasional comparison that Guilliman thinks of regarding Dorn or even Russ show the value he places in that discipline. I also really enjoyed Thiel, who exemplified the idea that the Ultramarines follow the rules until the rules don't make sense anymore which seems to be lost in a lot of the Internet rage regarding them. But he kept his head and did his duty.

The throwaway characters were a bit much though. The dreadnought was REALLY cool to begin with, but why did he take up so much space? Sure, there's a little bit about how maybe even Space Marines might feel something akin to fear (and I thought that bit were the Gal Vorbek felt real fear as Guilliman charged them was a nice touch regarding what happens once the mental discipline falls off) but he doesn't really DO anything. There's an argument to be made, as Xisor did, that it's these sorts of details that make a world come alive - clearly there are lots of characters with lots of motivations and thoughts who exist who don't fulfil a grand narrative purpose, but I found it jarring with the dreadnought particularly, since it seemed like it was going somewhere, and then abruptly he didn't show up anymore.

Oll was a bit of a mixed bag. One of the things I always liked about the Ollanius Pius story was this idea that he was just a regular old human being. Nothing more and nothing less than the rest of us. And he stepped up and did his duty in the face of a raging demigod on the verge of ascension, a demigod who's destroyed his view of the galaxy, burned his world, filled a ship with grotesque remains of his former allies, slain an angel. Now he's a reincarnating cabal agent who's been around since somewhere between 14,000-4000 BCE at least? Bah, I say.

All of which is not to say I didn't enjoy the book. I did, thoroughly. But it's not Legion, or ATS, or TFH. Heck, Ehrlen is still more memorable to me than the characters I just finished reading about last night, and my copy of Galaxy in Flames was bought and read on the day it came out.

EDIT: For some reason I feel like I have to put in my 2p on Brothers of the Snake. I think that book is, to me, indicative of the sort of book KNF is. Either you buy into the premise and it works for you, or you don't. I LOVED Brothers of the Snake (and for some reason I can't stand Gaunt's Ghosts, but hey) because it was just this mythic romp. I think if you can accept the style of KNF - the precision of the minutes, the death tolls, and so on, then it will likely be pleasant for you.

[SunTzu]

Oll was a bit of a mixed bag. One of the things I always liked about the Ollanius Pius story was this idea that he was just a regular old human being. Nothing more and nothing less than the rest of us. And he stepped up and did his duty in the face of a raging demigod on the verge of ascension, a demigod who's destroyed his view of the galaxy, burned his world, filled a ship with grotesque remains of his former allies, slain an angel. Now he's a reincarnating cabal agent who's been around since somewhere between 14,000-4000 BCE at least? Bah, I say.

Agreed. Jason and the Argonauts, WTF? But then the whole Cabal thread doesn't quite sit comfortably with me at the best of times... I'm doing my best to run with it (and it worked well enough within Legion) but it seems to have been crowbarred in.

EDIT: For some reason I feel like I have to put in my 2p on Brothers of the Snake. I think that book is, to me, indicative of the sort of book KNF is. Either you buy into the premise and it works for you, or you don't. I LOVED Brothers of the Snake (and for some reason I can't stand Gaunt's Ghosts, but hey) because it was just this mythic romp. I think if you can accept the style of KNF - the precision of the minutes, the death tolls, and so on, then it will likely be pleasant for you.

Interestingly, while my thoughts on KNF are well documented above, I really, really enjoyed BotS. In spite of (rather than because of) the manly uber-machismo manly manliness of it, to be sure, but I thought the subtext was brilliant. Certain scenes are both superb and memorable ("Where's the rest of you?" "No, it's just me." "But, it's your first mission?" "Yup. Now which way to the bad guys?") and the way the story at the very beginning linked in to the twist at the very end was wonderful, and brilliantly done. Yes, there were silly scenes (300? C'mon...) but I found them much more forgiveable in BotS than in KNF... perhaps because they were briefer, or perhaps because there was always a thread behind it that knowingly revealed the unfeasibly heroic manly heroism for what it was.

[Longstrider]

Interestingly, while my thoughts on KNF are well documented above, I really, really enjoyed BotS. In spite of (rather than because of) the manly uber-machismo manly manliness of it, to be sure, but I thought the subtext was brilliant. Certain scenes are both superb and memorable ("Where's the rest of you?" "No, it's just me." "But, it's your first mission?" "Yup. Now which way to the bad guys?") and the way the story at the very beginning linked in to the twist at the very end was wonderful, and brilliantly done. Yes, there were silly scenes (300? C'mon...) but I found them much more forgiveable in BotS than in KNF... perhaps because they were briefer, or perhaps because there was always a thread behind it that knowingly revealed the unfeasibly heroic manly heroism for what it was.

That may be one of the things that made it so enjoyable for me. There was a sense of *nudge nudge wink wink* to it. It was also one of the first Space Marine centric novels I read, and I think between that and Watson's d'Arquebus you get a sense of the distinction between the myth of the Astartes and the reality of the Astartes. But it was also just a fun, rollicking read.

[Wyrmwood]

What I like about Brothers of the Snake, is how the story is told in a very mythic fashion. It is the very essence of that method of story telling that allows me to suspend my disbelief within the context of the setting: it's not actually factual, but like myriad legends surrounding warrior cultures throughout the Earth's history - it's embellished, dramatised and heroic.

[MvS]

I'm not at all fond of battle diary style books, but Abnett has done an excellent job here.

We get some lovely nods and winks - Contemptor Dreadnoughts are mentioned along with several other Forgeworld Land Raider variants (so they're here to stay I should hope). We get comments about how Lorgar has now surpassed Erebus and Phaeron in terms of his warpcraft and warp presence. We get the truly awesome introduction of

Oll, called 'the Pious' out of a sort of affectionate contempt for the fact that he is a Catheric (40K Catholic remnant perhaps) in the 'enlightened' times of Imperial Truth, but who almost certainly going to be Ollanius Pius, the man whose sacrifice allows the Emperor to finally obliterate Horus.

Lots of good stuff. I've not finished yet. It's a very easy read though, in a good way. It's what many complained Prospero Burns wasn't (although I happened to like that book), but executed in a way that isn't just boring war porn.

[Spider-pope]

Finished the book last night. Absolutely fantastic in my opinion, it's what 'Battle for the Abyss' should have been.

I'm not at all fond of battle diary style books, but Abnett has done an excellent job here.

Oll, called 'the Pious' out of a sort of affectionate contempt for the fact that he is a Catheric (40K Cath'olic remnant perhaps) in the 'enlightened' times of Imperial Truth, but who almost certainly going to be Ollanius Pius, the man whose sacrifice allows the Emperor to finally obliterate Horus.

Speaking of Oll

Given that Grammaticus was instrumental in getting the Alpha Legion on Horus' side in order for chaos to win and burn out, it strikes me that when he's contacting Oll and warning him that "he" will lose, he's talking about Horus not the Emperor. Oll's joined the fight, but i suspect its not on the side The Cabal wanted him to

[MvS]

Very possibly.

What interests me is the suggestion that

Ollanius is some sort of immortal, although a 'natural' one unlike Grammaticus. He's described as a 'true Perpetual'.

There seems to be a hint of separate conspiracy from the Cabal's, or at least different players. I still haven't finished the book, but the reference to the Illuminators as a non-existent secret society when a Chaos cultist is looking for them, and then a comment later about Perpetuals has me wondering about some sort of tweaked redux of the Illuminati stuff. Or perhaps a rebooted version of the Sensei?

Or maybe I'm just getting over excited. We'll see.

[Xisor]

Not at all, MvS, that's close to exactly my thoughts. Especially...

Oll's Catheric-but-unnamed-god. The Sensei draw from the Star Child, which doesn't exist (properly, yet). The Sensei are driven by a secret society to unwittingly die at the moment of the Emperor's death to bring about the Star Child - the Illuminati/Cabal encourage the Sensei (true immortals, the Perpetuals) to intervene heroically for the Emperor...Oll is later slaughtered by Horus at the moment [shortly preceding] the Emperor's death. Perhaps Oll 'missed his target', perhaps that was the plan all along. Is the Cabal just a Tzeentchian Cult due to be exterminated by the Salamanders? Probably.

I think it's a good reboot of the Sensei. The Perpetuals also seem to date, in their reincarnation from before the Emperor. Also Oll's an argonaut.

Reincarnation's the important point - Shamans. The whole reason for creation of the Emperor was to create the New Man. Them being sons and daughters who weren't sacrificed, who somehow escaped and survived the creation of the New Man would make sense - they'd literally be children of the shamans who died to become the Emperor, effectively sons of (part of) the Emperor...from before the Emperor existed.

The implications of it all are really rather...appealing.

[MvS]

Other little thing that appealed to me. The Marine sergeant marked for censure has a red helmet - THAT's the sign of censure. Interesting how it's changed, and why...

[nagash66]

About 50% in, i am quite fond of the book so far, it provides what it presented on the cover, the treachery of Calth. That being said i do agree that it is slightly on the so called 'bolter-porn' side.

[Wazzahamma]

Haven't been back to this thread in a while, but I thought this interpretation of KNF's characterisation (or lack) would be of interest:

http://www.starburstmagazine.com/rev...w-know-no-fear

[Jim]

Just like to chime in with a short review and say that this was my favourite Heresy novel thus far...

I felt the tension building in the first few chapters to almost unbearable levels as you (the reader) knew what was about to happen but didn't know which scene it would 'kick off' in. The scale of things was great with spaceships smashing into planets, raining baneblades, etc...

DA also managed a previous impossibility- he made the UM likeable!!!

I really, really enjoyed it and had a actual 'gasp out loud' moment as I realised who Oll actually was - perfect!

Jim

[ManOfRust]

An excellently written, gripping and largely self-contained entry in the series.

Lots of characters who I would have greatly enjoyed reading more of, I would have accepted another 100 pages for the threads to be more closely tied together at the end without rushing

the battle reverses and the story ends in the space of about 30 pages

but the novel works out well despite this.

Telemechrus' pages should probably have gone to Sergeant Anchise and the shattered 111th/112th though - much as I love reading about the early dreadnaughts and Telemechrus' beautifully phrased cybernetic anxiety the time stamps did not help and Anchise deserved more material to pull together in.

Even more fun, lots of opportunities for unexplored regions to be delved;

The Underground War on Calth, The Anthame Wounding of Guilliman, Oll Pious Mysterious Destination and even more Mysterious Duty requiring - an Athame! The Ruinstorm - taking place so long after the events of Istvaan, the horrific deathtoll on the XIII, the STAGGERING numbers of XVII slain on Calth and the fact Erebus still counts Calth as a nearly flawless victory!

As with so much Dan Abnett, there is more to be told...

Although I did feel that Battle for the Abyss could have used a shout-out, even if it the earlier book did veer dangerously close to dastardly-scheme territory.

And was Argel Tal actually present at any point in the fighting? Shame for him to be foreboded at the end of Last Heretic and then no fun and games once he gets there.

What are peoples thoughts on the scale of loss suffered by the Ultramarines? Too much or not enough?

[Wyrmwood]

I believe that Know No Fear requires a direct continuation, or paired novel, to fully flesh out more of Calth. As it stands, there are novels that follow on from the events of Calth but, as I understand it, Know No Fear is to be the only novel focusing on the battle itself.

[Londinium]

And was Argel Tal actually present at any point in the fighting? Shame for him to be foreboded at the end of Last Heretic and then no fun and games once he gets there.

What are peoples thoughts on the scale of loss suffered by the Ultramarines? Too much or not enough?

I can't remember the foreboding that you mention as it's like a year since I read TFH but ADB posted an extract from Betrayer which featured Argel Tal, so it seems at the very least he's off with Lorgar and Angron doing his thing wherever they are. Butcher's Nails and Betrayer are tied in with Know No Fear though, so maybe they'll have some reference to Argel Tal if he did indeed end up at Calth, which I'm sure some other member of the forum with a better memory than me will be able to confirm/deny.

[Havarel]

I can't remember the foreboding that you mention as it's like a year since I read TFH but ADB posted an extract from Betrayer which featured Argel Tal, so it seems at the very least he's off with Lorgar and Angron doing his thing wherever they are. Butcher's Nails and Betrayer are tied in with Know No Fear though, so maybe they'll have some reference to Argel Tal if he did indeed end up at Calth, which I'm sure some other member of the forum with a better memory than me will be able to confirm/deny.

If I remember rightly the only time Argel Tal is present is during the pre-battle sequences (ie 'Lorgar' and his warriors communicating with Gulliman), but considering that Lorgar himself isn't there its morebthan likely it isn't actually Argel Tal..

[FlashGordon]

One thing ruined the whole ending for me:

Khor Phareon Kills Guilliman

I will have to reread the ending and jump that particular ball-dropping moment.

[Nazguire]

One thing ruined the whole ending for me:

Khor Phareon Kills Guilliman

I will have to reread the ending and jump that particular ball-dropping moment.

Kor Phearon didn't however... he just knocked him back a few times with very powerful Chaos sorcery. It was to show how powerful the Word Bearers had become and how much Guilliman could never see such a change coming

[SunTzu]

Yeah, agreed. One of the (comparatively few) things I did like about this book was how it showed that by means of sorcery, the Word Bearers are a threat... so much so that a "normal" Astartes has got a fair-to-middling chance of taking on a Primarch. The WBs have damned their eternal souls, but they've done so in exchange for very real temporal power.

Guilliman was unprepared for this and took a bit of a kicking as a result - but he survived it, in part due to Kor Phaeron's (IMO not at all well written) decision not to kill him, instead attempting (in IMO a very ham-fisted and not particularly convincing way) to convert him.