Know No Fear discussion – Teasers and Spoilers

[Apfeljunge]

I think it has never been much different in Black Library fiction as far as i can recall. Ships and Titans die really quick when their shields go down. In all the novels I read at least.

[SunTzu]

To be fair, the reason that often happens is that there's usually something highly destructive (eg. another ship or titan) shooting at them. It's not like "shields down sir... OH NO WE'VE BEEN HIT BY A LASPISTO-*booooooooooom*".

[BlackLegion]

Sure but to take an example from Battlefleet Gothic: To destroy a Lunar Class Cruiser you need 4x the firepower of what you need to down it's shields (2 shields, damage capacity 8). In all BL novels it seems to be the other way round.

[Xisor]

The critical caveat there, BL, is that Epic & BFG do allow for 'killing blows' quite randomly. Critical hits, on their own, accommodate this. Shields down, critical damage starts to happen.

(Also, from playing BFG, I know if shields go down, it's worth concentrating fire.)

The narrative takes place in such exceptional circumstances, surely. We only have one thread of narrative (well, usually) per story, and we don't see the dozens of times where each ship and titan has to be systematically destroyed, piece by piece because none of the shots managed to detonate a magazine or overload a power plant.

The real worry is when you're Princeps of an Imperator Titan: you've got as much chance as Sean Bean for surviving the story.

(In BFG to destroy a Lunar you ideally need the two hits against shields, a further hit on the hull and for that hit to go seriously critical: Hull Breach and roll another six damage points. That reduces it to one hit point. A second hit [or a hit sustained from the BMs in base contact due to shield loss] will kill it.)

[Mob]

Also, there's not really a great deal of scope in going down the 'game balance and rules should always be reflected in the fiction' approach. I mean, there has to be some of that, I guess, otherwise it's not relatable tie-in fiction, but when you try and apply abstract concepts not created to reflect (fantastical) 'reality' - a reality that is going to have to be manipulated in the interest of narrative - you're more often than not going to end up disappointed.

I can't think of a great analogy for the shield strength vs structural integrity thing. But xisor's point is illustrative; even the most powerful warships of their time can be wasted in one shot. HMS Hood springs to mind. And the fate of that ship is a powerful story.
And you have to remember what the rules abstracts mean and how foul people would cry if they were translated into fiction with unquestioning acceptance. A Titan with it's voids down can survive a hit from a volcano cannon in the game unscathed because you 'saved'. If someone was to write that in fiction, it'd be boring, stupid and unbelievable. We 'know' volcano cannons can atomise buildings, and we 'know' Titan armour can't survive firepower of that magnitude...

[Da'Mass]

I've just got to 0:00:00, and I have to say, 'The event' was completely ridiculous.

[BobtheInquisitor]

How was it ridiculous?

[Da'Mass]

How was it ridiculous?

I'm going to spoiler all my comments cos I will drift in an out of plot as I describe why I'm finding this one of the hardest books to read in the 60+ BL books I've gone through.

'The Campanile Calamity', as it were, was over the top.
The whole crash sequence was OK until the last bit when it said it took less than a second. Going into detail about how ships are bouncing like pool balls. A ten kilometre long ship in docks going from zero to hyper speeds is just silly.

Then there's 50 pages of multiple perspectives of largely the same events which just seemed to go on and on and on and on. It was completely unnecessary and as such you could cut similar passages from earlier in the book were you get to know back story of the perspectives. With the subsequent 'extinction level event', written in the third person, I've read since first posting, it's made the first person accounts even more redundant. The destruction seems overdone if it's to be believed any of these people, who all seemed to be standing on hilltops given their fields of vision, survived more than a few seconds.

And given all the perspectives, why not get a view from the capital ship that 'gracefully' crashed into the planet. How/Why did it coast down? Engines going full blast? Dan missed a trick there writing a couple of pages detailing the damage a capital ships engine exhausts would do to a planets surface.

Then there's the other ship crash I mentioned earlier. Extinction level/ planet crust smashing event apparently. Tsunamis destroying littoral four kilometres inland? Firstly , the Boxing Day Tsunami made it about two kilometres inland. Secondly, Littoral doesn't go four kilometres inland. If you're going to use fancy words like littoral, at least check Wikipedia first. More was written about a super heavy tank crashing than half the planet getting pwned.

I feel if you're a sci-fi writer and you're describing these kind of events, you have to put a bit of effort into making it sound a little realistic or at least ham fistedly plausible, not just commit to paper the first thing that comes to mind.

As I've been reading this book, I've struck repeatedly with the sense of stuff being written for fillers sake. Way too may hyperbole & clichéd passages. The latest annoyance that springs to mind...in 3 or 4 pages I read two similar passages about debris beginning orbits around the star that would last blah blah crew members faces frozen in waa waa.

Finally, when you have 4 pages of dramatis personae, all those people are not dramatis personae, it's 1% of a book.

I could go on

[Killgore]

I've just got to 0:00:00, and I have to say, 'The event' was completely ridiculous.

I've read your reasons why you think this and to put it simply I disagree.

A conflict as sudden and evil as Calth needed a jaw dropping event that would set it off, I believe Dan going into detail on just how catastrophic 0 hour was, was achieved rather nicely.

If for example

The extinction level event

was truly that bad then the book would be pretty much over, the writing had to take liberties to convey the destruction and keep the planet roughly intact till the story can end.

As for the

falling spaceship 'coasting down'

what about terminal velocity? Even with the possibility of some thrusters working, when this was reached as it fell through the atmosphere surly something of that size and viewed from an appropriate distance would indeed look like its coasting.

Still I guess this book is not for everyone, seems to be like marmite for some members of the community.

[Xisor]

Typically being hung up on the things Da'Mass expounds - SF authors making efforts to 'get it right', putting in the right amount of 'action' sequence and descriptions and things - I can only say: I saw the same 'stimuli' as Da'Mass but came to starkly different conclusions.

It was a good look at what actually happens in such a situation. Not perfect by any means, but given that Dan's a far better character author than he is speculative physicist, I'm happy with events. In fact, more than happy.

[Casper Hawser]

I liked it thought the style of writing really suited the Ultramarines some of the heresy novels need to be like this because of the massive events that occur and the amount of people it affects.
If Abnett had decided to do it with just a few point of views it would have felt like a lot of previous novels where the story is told from a few points of view (Primarch couple of Marines couple of humans) he's gone from Prospero Burns told by one character to Know no fear told by many you've got appreacite the fact he mixes it up with diffrent styles of story telling.

[t-tauri]

Please remember the posting guidelines. Several posts removed.

t-tauri

The Warseer Inquisition

[Ragnarfan_12]

Well to be honest the thing i disliked most about this book is that the buildups were huge and gten they just never followed with anything like the " one of the most infamous naval battles" yea thats awesome and all but i woulda liked to actually read about it and the ending was extremely rushed to end the "massive" battle at the end in like what two pages? im pretty sure that the entire army of word bearers wouldnt have just turned and ran especially Hol Beloth was so eager to prove his worth and also they could have just extended the book a few more pages look at Fulgrim its over 500 pages if anyones read the ultramarines series it was kinda disapointing to read about the battle of calth and not read about the fateful baattle that Remus killed Maloq am i right?

[SchultzChaos]

Something that irked me is the way Dan plays with plot armour. I mean.... poor, poor, poor Word Bearers. Their armour most be of some really crappy material. And they sure can't fire a straight bullet either. KNF smelled to much of Gaunt's Ghosts for me. The first part of the book was fantastic, and I loved the portrayal of the Word Bearers and daemons.

Now here comes the thing that really grinds my gear.... People have been saying how they enjoyed the 30k Ultras for the way they were used in the novel. But for me there was no real difference between them 30k and 40k. Remus jumps into the fight and "chops Word Bearers to paste" because..... he is angry. I can't think a moment when they really used some actual tactic that sounded plausible or right off smart. Just: "Ultramarine X killed enemy Y with a well placed bolter shell". The Word Bearers and Ultramarines are both Legio Astartes but Dan don't portray that bit when it comes to the actual fighting (like Gaunt's Ghosts... again). I understand the "fantasy/sci-fi-genre" and the model it uses for drama. But where is the thrill if you already can predict where the outcome will lie? Remus = hero = plot armour. I think some form of suspension of disbelief should be there and that plot armour can be used to keep characters on their toes. But all the time... really?

Another thing the book really made a point about was the fact that Ultramarines "know no fear". I don't know how many times I read it. If you repeatedly throw the point of the book at us (the readers) it doesn't come off as fun or smart. I had much more enjoyed it if was subtlety woven into the story rather than see the phrase repeated over and over. It's up there with Dan's "wet leopard growl". (though I like the comment that the aspect was mirrored in the Word Bearer elite that fled from Gulliman in fear)

A really good start that ended in a quite average way.

[Lord_Crull]

Now here comes the thing that really grinds my gear.... People have been saying how they enjoyed the 30k Ultras for the way they were used in the novel. But for me there was no real difference between them 30k and 40k. Remus jumps into the fight and "chops Word Bearers to paste" because..... he is angry. I can't think a moment when they really used some actual tactic that sounded plausible or right off smart. Just: "Ultramarine X killed enemy Y with a well placed bolter shell". The Word Bearers and Ultramarines are both Legio Astartes but Dan don't portray that bit when it comes to the actual fighting (like Gaunt's Ghosts... again). I understand the "fantasy/sci-fi-genre" and the model it uses for drama. But where is the thrill if you already can predict where the outcome will lie? Remus = hero = plot armour. I think some form of suspension of disbelief should be there and that plot armour can be used to keep characters on their toes. But all the time... really?

I have to completely agree. What makes it a real shame that in Collected Visions Guilliman took charge of the fleet and forces on the ground to coordinate the defense in a series of lightning attacks that eventually pushed the Word Bearers out of the system. It was a brilliant organizational and tactical feat.

In KNF, Guilliman is out for most of the battle with the Ultramarine fleet being almost completely destroyed and shattered. There is no real coordinated defense between the Ultramarine groups on a planetwide scale except maybe at the very end of the book. Guilliman gave a single order to attack a vital defense installation and led a single boarding action. That’s it.

Guilliman was talked about as a great commander and general before, but he did't really get to do much other than punch things in KNF, which was a disappointment for me.

[Kiro]

Just finished it last night, I was so engrossed I finished it in record time. Pleasantly surprised at how good it was considering I don't like the Ultramarines, the Word Bearers, or Abnett hype.

As someone else has already said; I wish there had been at least a throwaway reference to BTFA.

I would really have liked to have read more about Ollanius [Persson]; I was burning through his parts. Shocked to discover

ol' John G is back from the dead.

I guess now we know how the Loyalists get their Librarians back in touch. Made me wince for the Thousand Sons

I thought the epilogue was quite a nice touch.

[MajorWesJanson]

I guess now we know how the Loyalists get their Librarians back in touch. Made me wince for the Thousand Sons

As per an older WD, we know that Loyalist Librarians were indeed given the Imperial stamp of approval, in fact the Big E led a number of them from the (IIRC) Blood Angels and White Scars in psychic defense during the siege of Terra.

[Kiro]

As per an older WD, we know that Loyalist Librarians were indeed given the Imperial stamp of approval, in fact the Big E led a number of them from the (IIRC) Blood Angels and White Scars in psychic defense during the siege of Terra.

Doesn't the Nikea retcon in A Thousand Sons invalidate the old IA?...

[Lupe]

Doesn't the Nikea retcon in A Thousand Sons invalidate the old IA?...

Not that I know of...
The Nikea council was mentioned in the old IA as well, and I can't remember any point where they come into contradiction with each other....

[MajorWesJanson]

Doesn't the Nikea retcon in A Thousand Sons invalidate the old IA?...

It wasn't from one of the IA entries, it was an article about the siege of the Imperial Palace. It fits rather well. Nikea we have the Emperor see Magnus meddling with the Warp in ways he shouldn't, but is too busy with the Webway to teach him properly. then Magnus does his thing, and messes up the Webway, the Traitors start using sorcerers, and the Loyalists are forced to do the same. Since the webway is shot, and defense is key, he rescinds the ban and guides the Librarians in the psychic defense of the Palace.

going off topic though.