Do you need an inquisitor ?

[cornonthecob]

I'm somewhat interested in the game , but am not a fan of Inquisitors. Is it possible to play the game without it ?

[MarcoSkoll]

It's entirely possible to play without an Inquisitor.

Warbands can be lead by Interrogators, Rogue Traders, Nobles, Techpriests, Preachers, Chaos Cultists, Death Magisters and so on and so forth. Anyone you can put together a decent reasoning for getting together and trying to get involved in the plot. A warband might be part of a Planetary Governor's investigative police force, or perhaps you might want to do a civilian vigilante warband.

It is worth noting, however, that if a group is significantly less powerful in terms of resources or political clout, it might cause an imbalance in the plot. This usually means that most players tend to stick to the wealthy and powerful, or those with wealthy and powerful allies/sponsors. But not always, as creative plot writing can go a long way.

But do bear in mind that Inquisitors are a very wide breed. They're not all the frothing killers shown in the 40k game whose first reaction is hitting something with a Chainhammer or incinerating it. In fact, that's a very boring stereotype that doesn't fit the Inquisitor game well. (If you haven't read Eisenhorn or Ravenor, you probably should.)
Inquisitors can come from any background (except the Adeptus Mechanicus, but Tech-Priests can lead warbands themselves) - Arbitrator, Sword cultist, Savant-Scribe, you name it. If you can't imagine a single Inquisitor that you like, then I find it hard to imagine how you'd really get into the game at all.

I should add that while it is in theory possible to play Inquisitor just as a skirmish game, I don't personally recommend this. Inquisitor is designed to be a detailed game that includes roleplay elements, which means the ruleset is overly intricate if you're just trying to play it as a skirmish. There are much less clunky (and considerably better balanced) rules systems if all you want to do is have some models beat the snot out of each other.

[kaled]

As usual, Marco has answered the question pretty comprehensively, so instead I'll ask you a few questions to keep the conversation going as it's always interesting to see what types of characters people use.

What types of characters do you fancy using? What is it you dislike about Inquisitors? Is it that you fancy a less powerful warband leader (by 'powerful' I mean in the sense of the authority they wield rather than physical prowess)? Or is it something about the image of Inquisitors that you dislike? Are there any particular models you're seen that you'd like to include in your warband(s)?

By not having army lists and the like Inquisitor gives players unrivalled choice in the characters they create and it's interesting to see what people do with that freedom...

If you want to know more about the game you could do worse than looking at Carthax, the Inquisitor wiki - it has some FAQs that attempt to answer many of the common questions that new players have;
http://carthax.wikispaces.com/

[MarcoSkoll]

One thing I forgot to cover earlier:

Yes, you could have a Space Marine led warband, but they are monstrously lethal characters who seldom have a good excuse to be sneaking around in the underhive (as well as one can sneak in bright blue armour, anyway) rather than smashing in Xeno heads on the front lines.

Getting into Space Marine characters either results in drastically unfair games or an escalation where players start trying to catch up or one-up each other by upgrading their warbands. This is not a good move, as a sandbox game like Inquisitor doesn't work well if you approach it with the intent to win at all costs. So, generally, Space Marines are a sometimes food - when they appear, they should usually be GM controlled, but perhaps the players might get control of one in special circumstances.

The game as a whole works better when characters are modest in their abilities, equipment and statlines, so there's a decent element of chance - after all, it's always more tense having to make that all important shot on a 60-something rather than a 90-something.
For this reason, most of the internet veterans have largely settled on a consensus of lower stats (for both mortal humans and SPESS MAREEENS) than the random generators in the rulebook would tend to normally give. That's talked about more in depth on the Carthax link Kaled gave in his post.

And I'll re-iterate Kaled's questions too. What is it you are looking for, and why don't Inquisitors catch your fancy?

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

As stated, parties for Inquisitor come in all shapes and sizes. For instance, I keep toying with the idea of making up models of the Firefly/Serenity cast to get in new players and let them see how fun a game with no power armour or power weapons can be. It's extremely doable rules wise and I know there are some companies that sell models in the 28mm range that can work, but I enjoy the modelling aspects of 54mm myself so can go either way.

On Space Marines we had two instances where the idea was fairly balanced. The one that is easier due to fluff is an Alpha Legion marine. The other characters in that player's band did not know the character was a Space Marine. He wasn't wearing power armour or carrying a bolt pistol or anything like that. He also did not do anything a normal human shouldn't be able to do in the presence of the other members of his party. He wore plain clothes and carried a laspistol and knife. It made things pretty interesting as the player would try to find ways to get him separated from the others on the board so he could cut loose from time to time. As far as the others in his group were aware he was a bit fanatical at some times, and a wuss at others as he was always charging in on his own or running away depending on the situation.

The other may be a bit harder to swallow. It needs a bit of setup. Basically, there is a faction of the Mechanicum which views the body itself as a machine. I remember reading something about it in one of the sourcebooks a while back. I believe it might have been one of the fan created ones, but it was so well done that I can't rightly remember. Anyway, this sparked off an idea for a warband that was part of this faction. I had a scientist type character that led. He sought knowledge on improving the machine that is the Human body through organic augmentation. One character was a monk style character with electric tatoos (electoos I think they might be called) and his unarmed attacks counted as shock mauls with shorter reach, but had next to no fine motor control in his hands due to years of training that shattered his hands on rocks and the augmentations implanted later to deliver electric shocks. There was a mutant that was basically one failed experiment after another. The last member of the party was my only time playing a "Space Marine".

What it boiled down to was the scientist was trying to create a new breed of superhuman. My character started out with what rules wise would equate to five implants that space marines would get. He didn't get any of the standard space marine gear because he was not a space marine and the scientist also wanted to push him in the realm of field testing so he was kept at basic equipment the whole time I played him. Aside from getting some basic armour at one point his advances were all tied directly to story and were implants of one sort or another trying to recreate the effects of a space marine. Not all of them worked, but it was fun and it scratched that itch to play a Space Marine at some point for me.

[MarcoSkoll]

The other characters in that player's band did not know the character was a Space Marine.

While interesting, it's a bit of a stretch to have a seven foot tall warrior with so much muscle he's misshapen, skin that rapidly changes colour, drool that will eat through steel plate and blood that clots instantly, but not have anyone at least suspicious...

Basically, there is a faction of the Mechanicum which views the body itself as a machine. I remember reading something about it in one of the sourcebooks a while back.

That would be the Adeptus Biologis.

I'm actually messing around with some potential fluff based around the Biologis designed to be a bit of a poke at the constant argument about female Space \marines. If you want superhuman females, there are ways to do it that don't involve Space Marine geneseed.
As for why you'd do it... perhaps an Inquisitor or a Planetary governor has a weird obsession, or maybe you simply want to distance them from being Space Marines (for creating Space Marines without the say of the High Lords is against Imperial law).

The other thing: it was only the Mechanicum pre-heresy.

[kaled]

The other thing: it was only the Mechanicum pre-heresy.

Often I use Adeptus Mechanicus when looking at them from an Imperial point of view, and Mechanicum when looking at them from their own point of view - although that has a lot to do with getting in character as quite a few of my AdMech characters dislike the way Adeptus Mechanicus can be seen to reduce the Mechanicum to a simple arm of the Imperium.

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

I was under the impression that the height thing was the height when wearing power armour. There are some conflicting accounts all over but I heard officially the seven feet tall descriptions were all when wearing power armour. The reason for using Alpha Legion in this instance was that there are Black Library stories where they would sew discord amongst the populace and no one would know they were Space Marines. They would think they were just another man. A newcomer perhaps, and a charismatic one at that, but for outward appearances still a man. Then again infiltrating Human society is sort of the specialty of the Alpha Legion. I doubt the idea would have worked with just about any other legion.

[MarcoSkoll]

I was under the impression that the height thing was the height when wearing power armour.

Power armour adds a bit, but only a bit. We're talking an inch or two beneath the sole and on top of the head. A Marine is still huge out of their armour - and pretty misshapen by muscle. Imagine Arnold Schwarzenegger (Mr Universe era, not as he is now) if he was another head taller with armour interface ports cut into his torso, and you're about on the mark.

Not hugely subtle, and I don't really like when it's done in BL novels because it requires everyone to ignore the fact that the Marine would dwarf my old headteacher. (And you couldn't fail to ignore that he was several inches taller than even the lankiest of the sixth formers.)

That said, I think the Alpha Legion might be slightly smaller in stature than an average Marine. I know Alpharius/Omegon were smaller than average Primarchs at least.

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

Thanks. I was picturing the armour as three or four inches thick plus an inch or two for the soles. It's good to know the truth as it may help in future discussions with others looking to get into the game. I never know what to believe from Black Library novels as while they can be fun to read I know they aren't considered canon by Games Workshop.

[Lyonator]

My thoughts are influenced by being two-thirds through the Eisenhorn trilogy (for the thirdish time) but I instantly think of how often Gregor (yeah, we're on a first-name basis) sends agents - alone or in groups - to do work for him without his presence.
(Often across vast expanses of space)
That right there gives licence to have the resources of an inquisitor without that bothersome burden of actually having one with your group.
Of course, that's not to say that all/most/many/some inquisitors do things this way, just that we've an example of it.
Opens up nice segues to an inquisitor showing up.... or not.
Disclaimer: Glossed over most of the thread. Hooray beer!

[kaled]

I know they aren't considered canon by Games Workshop.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, but how do you know that? The only official quote I've ever been able to find was part of a BL FAQ that said basically that just like everything published by GW or one of it's subsidiaries or licencees, BL novels are part of the canon but they're not necessarily true. All the fluff is written from the point of view of an observer who may be biased or wrong or lying.

People often state that they're read or heard that BL is not canonical, but so far no one has been able to point at a source (and I've asked a lot of people). If GW have published something saying that they're not canonical then I'm interested in knowing where.

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

Thanks for being kind gentlemen. I am actually enjoying the conversation quite a bit and have learned some things so far.

I probably heard that Black Library was not canon from a podcast. I can pretty much guarantee I didn't pick it up from anything official. If I had to guess it was most likely the Eternal Warriors. I don't remember reading anything official one way or the other so tend to take what I hear from such sources at face value unless I see something official myself as they know more about it than I do and I didn't care enough at the time to look further into it. I listen to a lot of Big Finish audio which have to go through the television studio and get authorization for every Doctor Who story they produce yet their stories aren't considered canon so it made sense to me at the time. The reason I seem to remember being given is if Games Workshop decides later that they don't want something in a Black Library novel to be true then they can say they have never put out any content that presents that thing they don't want any more. Basically, I guess it is a way to protect themselves from aspects they don't want later on like a sixth chaos god or something similar. I never made note of it or anything so can't say for certain which episode, or even if it was The Eternal Warriors specifically that I heard it in. There are a couple of others I listen to that discuss Black Library products so it could have been one of those instead.

I remember now where I heard the deal about Space Marine height. It was from Ross Watson talking on d6 Generation. He is pretty adamant that Space Marines are only seven feet tall when in the armour where Jes Goodwin has stated in the past seven to seven and a half feet tall but never said at the time whether that was in or out of armour. I have heard as tall as eight eight feet before, and not in the same vein as the exaggerations of second hand accounts from the fictions where eye witnesses claim that Space Marines are ten feet tall. The Deathwatch RPG states 2.1 meters when in the armour, but I'm not sure how official the RPG is to Games Workshop. At times it looks a bit like Space Marines have been shrinking since the time of the Emperor.

By the way, I got to looking around, and Gav Thorpe has some interesting things to say on the idea of anything being canon when talking about the 40K universe. Aaron Dembski-Bowden has called the whole thing loose canon even amongst the stuff produced solely by Games Workshop. I'm still looking around as I find the topic pretty interesting.

[kaled]

Good find with those articles, interesting reading. I found the original quote from the BL site;

Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

I like that approach as it gives us as fans plenty to argue about as we can all look for sources that back up our position and gives us all scope to come up with our own interpretation of the universe. And if GW want to 'retcon' something they no longer like, then it was just one of those rumours, half-truths or lies. Plus it's perfect for Inquisitor players as it leaves all sorts of dark corners of the canon for us to explore.

The 1:1 scale drawing Jes Goodwin drew back when he was working on their armour concepts has the marines as 7' tall and that's how tall the full size models are at GWHQ. There has been a lot of size creep over the years with some authors portraying them as 8' or over. Of course, not all marines are going to be the same height, so I think a general range of 7' to 7'6" is reasonable (with a few individuals being taller or shorter).

[Charax]

heh, that takes me back - I'm the one who he was replying to (I was asking about the Horus Heresy artbooks, IIRC)

Warbands consisting solely of non-Inquisitors aren't all that uncommon, especially for things like Mechanicus warbands. In my experience most Inquisitor players will have an "extended" warband of several characters, including an Inquisitor, and then they will pick models from those collections to form "task groups" that will be the warbands for particular scenarios. It helps tie things together from a narrative standpoint.

Marines have been about 7 feet tall since as long as I can remember (seven feet tall, four feet wide, six feet under :P) and the armour has never contributed greatly to that, but there are exceptions. Ranulf of the Space Wolves is huge, and there's size variation among Marines just as there is in humanity, I take 7 feet as being the baseline (the amount the implants will increase your growth to) and exceptional circumstances - implants going wrong, or an especially bulky initial aspirant - can increase that. It's not like power armour can't be let out if needs be. Marines shorter than 7 feet aren't a great idea, though.

[TheDungen]

making a rogue trader based on mal and a crew based of the crew of Serenity would be wonderful. Just the hinch of the 'mal' character surviving being on the losing side against what in this setting would be the imperium of man.