Forge father drakkarims: something went wrong

[Thalandor]

According to the forge fathers force list, drakkarims are supposed to be the close range troops of the forge fathers. They have low firepower and short shooting range, but high melee atk dice and they can wield flamers as option. From their stats line, you would imagine models weilding pistols + close combat weapons and the occasional flamers.

Now, for some reason the sculptors made models wielding assault rifles, rocket launchers and flamers. Basically, they're steal warriors with better looking legs and helmets. What gives ?

I think the mantic rules designers and sculptors need to talk more to each other...

[scarletsquig]

Yeah, there isn't much of a matchup between the rules and the models. The unit has no option for a rocket launcher, and as you mentioned, the statline suggests melee weapons.

The Drakkarim in the army list look like they're supposed to be the elite melee unit loaded with flamers, background on the website says that they specialise in flame-based weaponry for cultural/religious reasons.

I'm thinking that Mantic's main priority with the Drakkarim kit was getting some models out to fix the problems with the steel warriors very quickly. We'll probably see a melee variant of the models released at some point, the arm joints are different to the steel warriors (shoulder join instead of elbow join), which suggests that they want to keep the sculpts open to having melee arms added at some point in the future.

I guess you could convert them to a melee unit if you want... take spare pistols from the steel warrior sprue, take left arms and hammers from the KoW dwarf range. Probably better to wait and see what happens with the army list before doing that, though.

[Thalandor]

Aye scarlet, you are right to say that they were released to fix the problems with the steel warriors. It's the same parts that come with the steel warriors "upgrade packs".

Imagine if in the first place they'd just released the steel warriors as a 5-men plastic sprue made of the drakkarim parts + the alternative heads and heat hammer from the current SW sprue. We would have had top notch steel warriors with BFG options at the very low price of plastics... I know I seem to complain a lot, but sometimes I wish I worked for Mantic just to bring some cohesion to their work. They do great stuff, I've no doubt about that, but they keep shooting themselves in the foot by rushing or badly planning their releases...

[Darsc Zacal]

The issue isn't having the idea to do a plastic sprue. The issue is having the money to do a plastic sprue.

Having something out there is better than having nothing out there.

[scarletsquig]

Image if in the first place they'd just released the steel warriors as a 5-men plastic sprue made of the drakkarim parts + the alternative heads and heat hammer from the current SW sprue.

It was a rushed release, even Ronnie mentioned that on the blog (albeit in carefully-worded and highly verbose corporate speak), and it looks like they're well aware of the mistake at this point seeing how the Corporation release is panning out.

The best thing about Mantic isn't that they don't screw up, it's that they listen, learn and try to make up for mistakes. So, we have the 3rd Warpath army not taking any shortcuts on the quality front, and the bitz packs released as a band-aid for the forgefathers.

Also, I have no doubts that we'll *eventually* see the initial Steel warrior sprue with the fantasy parts removed and replaced with sci-fi parts. The mould tooling is flexible and modular... just as it was doable to re-use the fantasy half of the mould for the steel warriors, it is also possible for mantic to take the existing sci-fi parts and expand them into a full sprue with zero fantasy components on it.

Only tricky issue is the monopose torso, which would require either a third (multi-part) torso piece on a 2-man sprue, or for the sprue to be 5-man.

If I was tasked with reworking the fantasy half of the steel warriors in a bare minimum of components I'd go with:

- 2x sci-fi legs (1 static, 1 stationary)
- 1x sci-fi torso (similar to the good one on the sci-fi half)
- 1x enclosed head
- 1x rifle
- 1x dragon breath

Fantasy Legs? Fixed. Monopose torso? Fixed. Lack of head variety? Not fixed, but you can get away with that if you use enclosed helms on sculpts, the important thing is having the heads seperate for posability. Lack of special weapon? Fixed.

It would only take 6 extra components to turn the steel warrior sprue into something that meets acceptable quality standards. TBH, a lot of the above could have been fitted into the existing sprue by scrapping the commander arms, the goggles, and all the weird tubes and aerials on the sci-fi side and replacing those superfluous extras with things that add quality to the kit.

I am of the opinion that small, low component plastic sprues are totally economic for mantic, they just need to be done right. Zombies, ghouls, orc greatax.. all of those have great sprue design.

[BobtheInquisitor]

Ronnie has a lot of bad ideas relating to sprue design like "2-part models are good for people who don't want to glue" that need to be thrown out of the window and run over with a truck.

YES. Those 2-man sprues are my only biggest problem with the dwarfs and forgefathers. I love the original design Mantic came up with for the dwarfs, but their sprues seem to be the result of a competition to make the most boring possible use of it.

[Thalandor]

The issue isn't having the idea to do a plastic sprue. The issue is having the money to do a plastic sprue.

Having something out there is better than having nothing out there.

Yeah of course. If you consider that they released the drakkarims (read 'sci-fi steel warriors') a mere 2 (?) months after the originals, you start to wonder why they didn't just wait and do it right the first time. I know I could have waited 2 months. You're right about money being a factor, but they should just have waited and invest in a plastic mould for the newer parts instead of the ones with fantasy parts...

[scarletsquig]

^ As Nightsword mentioned in the other thread, it's a tradeoff. They're a small, lightweight company with a fixed budget to spend on new releases which by this point will definitely be funded by operating profit rather than startup capital, so they can't go too nuts. Even GW can't do everything in plastic.

For instance, Corporation get 4 units because they are restic. Mantic could have done them in plastic, but they'd only be releasing 1 kit instead of 4 since plastic costs more than restic.

So, in a similar manner, yes, they could have done nice plastics for the Forgefathers, but then they wouldn't have been able to release the Marauder range, and wouldn't have had 2 armies for the box, something which, at the time was considered important.. the factor of "What's the point of releasing this warpath game unless we have 2 armies to go with it?" was considered more important at the time. It's a lot easier to call it a bad idea in hindsight. There's a whole blog post with the reasoning behind it, the reality is very far from the "malcious intent" scenario that a lot of angry forum posters assume.

Mantic is in rapid expansion mode currently, have a look at this timeline to see how things have happened with the company:

2009: Mantic releases 1 army (elves)
2010: Mantic releases 2 armies (undead, dwarves)
2011: Mantic releases 4 armies (abyssal dwarves, orcs, forgefathers, marauders)
2012: Mantic releases 4 armies (TK, goblins, Corp, 8th race) *in the first half of the year*

Exponential growth so far. At the current pace it looks likely that we'll see all 10 KoW and all 8 Warpath armies released by the end of 2013 (and a ton of specialist games as well).

Mantic is a lot more interesting now that it's getting a lot of different releases out each month as opposed to just 1 army every 6 months which was the case, and as long as each release is profitable for them and lets them keep releasing stuff, they'll eventually hit the point where they're making enough to comfortably fund a nice new plastic sprue once a month and save restic for elite troops, metal for characters.

[Tonny]

Armies? They aren't releasing armies. They are releasing units for certain armies and when you take that in account the amount is not massive as you are suggesting
They are far from having complete rosters to actually talk about armies for most of their released units.

[Thalandor]

It's true that they're releasing more and more ranges of armies, but the scope of each release seems to be smaller and smaller, with fewer and smaller plastic frames and lesser variety of poses and so on. Of course money is the big factor, but I'm thinking they might be chewing on too much at the same time. They should release their stuff at a slower rate and don't cut corners.

They will sell more stuff if the quality is there. I know they would have sold me lots of forgefathers if they had been like the drakkarims (but in plastic), and if the stormrage veterans didn't look like parrots. Now they sold me none, and I'm not interested in metal parts. My days of pinning metal or fixing warped parts are long over.

Anyways, I'm not an angry forum poster. Really ! I'm just a guy pointing out what mantic has been doing wrong lately so that they change the way they work and start planning their stuff correctly to avoid mistakes like that in the future...

On the positive side, I totally dig the Corporation...

[redben]

Armies? They aren't releasing armies. They are releasing units for certain armies and when you take that in account the amount is not massive as you are suggesting
They are far from having complete rosters to actually talk about armies for most of their released units.

The Elves were launched with three troop types and a war machine, same for Undead. The Corporation are being released with three troop types plus heavy weapons teams. Seems exactly the same to me.

[shelfunit.]

Armies? They aren't releasing armies. They are releasing units for certain armies and when you take that in account the amount is not massive as you are suggesting
They are far from having complete rosters to actually talk about armies for most of their released units.

I'm not really sure how you reach that conclusion.
The elves have 2 warmachine types, 4 infantry types, 2 cavalry types and 6 character models.
The undead have 2 warmachine types, 6 infantry types, 2 cavalry types and 8 character models.
The Dwarfs have 2 warmachine types, 7 infantry types and 4 character models.

Before making such claims, at least do a little research on the topic.

[scarletsquig]

Anyways, I'm not an angry forum poster.

Of course not! I was only referring other comments about mantic "abandoning cheap armies and betraying their customers" or some other such hyperbole which often get made on here, your comments are simply constructive criticism which I agree with.

If anyone has problems with the exact minutiae of my last post, feel free to condense it down to:

"Mantic will not have a range which entirely competes with GW for another couple of years. Until that happens, they're in expansion mode, and not waiting around either."

The point was, we'd waiting until 2019 for a complete range of armies from Mantic, not 2013 if they stuck with the previous "all-plastic army every 6 months" schedule.

This appears to be what works out well for them as a business, too. The elves might have 4 full-fat plastic kits, but Mantic also made a loss on them, so those didn't exactly allow them to pay for future kits. If a plastic kit doesn't sell it is a huge deal because so much money was sunk into making it. If a restic kit doesn't, it's much less of a big deal, and if a metal kit doesn't, it's practically no big deal at all from a profit perspective, although from a "retailers not stocking stuff anymore" perspective, it can be quite damaging.

Take the goblins for instance. Plastic could have been made for them right away, but then.. how would mantic know if they'd sell or tank if no-one outside Nottingham has seen the sculpts? Goblin spears as a unit type are obviously great for plastic, but the style and quality of the sculpts are also important factors. There's a lot of people who don't like the mantic-style elves and dwarfs. Everyone is liking those goblins though! So now mantic can go ahead and make as many plastic/restic kits in that sculpt style as it likes without having to worry. In an alternate universe where everyone hated the metal goblins, mantic just dodged a bullet. In either scenario, mantic wins.

Even in-person feedback can be unreliable since people tend to be overly positive when talking in person, so a "public beta" in the form of a metal kit can offer some valuable (and accurate) advance info on whether or not X plastic kit sculpted in Y style will be a seller or a failure. It's a much smarter approach then either:

a) Just randomly betting the farm on a full-fat plastic sprue without having a clue if people will like it.
b) Putting out a cut-down plastic sprue at a higher price to minimise the risk of it not selling.

I don't expect we'll see any errors on the scale of the steel warriors in future, so I consider it a non-issue from this point forward.. it is worth noting that Mantic has already tried its best to compensate for the lacking sprue by adding an extra 6 free steel warriors to the warpath starter, and by releasing the bitz packs (they also offered full refunds on the pre-orders to anyone who wanted to cancel). They did listen, and did take action.. okay the action might not be the 100% perfect solution, but to me the gesture is the important thing and is what makes them great as a company.

[Nightsword]

The elves have 2 warmachine types, 4 infantry types, 2 cavalry types and 6 character models.

Redben was talking about when they launched - the Elves were revisited with the cavalry and the 2nd warmachine and whatnot. When I joined, we had the Spearmen, Bowmen, Scouts and Warmachine, and about 13 codes.

Similarly, the Forge Fathers will be revisited with the Iron Ancestor and possibly the Forge Guard, and the Corporation will no doubt get a vehicle at some stage. Everything will get more stuff at some point, but it's about what we can squeeze into a year. And then what extra stuff Ronnie can shoe-horn into that!

You're right about money being a factor, but they should just have waited and invest in a plastic mould for the newer parts instead of the ones with fantasy parts...

The trade-off was not having the Jotunn Hailstorm Cannon. Opportunity cost it's called. Of course we could have just Plastic Resined the lot, which would have meant sculpting a lot more parts which would have meant a higher RRP so swings and roundabouts - that and putting all of your faith in an unknown supplier is a big leap - one we've taken with Corporation But we hear the feedback, and we learn accordingly.

[sasheep]

Armies? They aren't releasing armies. They are releasing units for certain armies and when you take that in account the amount is not massive as you are suggesting
They are far from having complete rosters to actually talk about armies for most of their released units.

Well if we are going to be like that, GW doesn't release armies either, they release a few kits each army book/codex and still have some massive gaps in their range. Nids have waited 2 years for some of their units. You can't seriously expect a small company like mantic to be able to release every single unit for one army in a short space of time when the biggest company in the buisness doesn't even do that. Fair point with the goblins as there is only one unit so far, but we do know another is coming and the spear unit seems to be like squig said a tester unit to see if that style will sell.

[Tonny]

2009: Mantic releases 1 army (elves)
2010: Mantic releases 2 armies (undead, dwarves)
2011: Mantic releases 4 armies (abyssal dwarves, orcs, forgefathers, marauders)
2012: Mantic releases 4 armies (TK, goblins, Corp, 8th race) *in the first half of the year*

I'm not really sure how you reach that conclusion.
The elves have 2 warmachine types, 4 infantry types, 2 cavalry types and 6 character models.
The undead have 2 warmachine types, 6 infantry types, 2 cavalry types and 8 character models.
The Dwarfs have 2 warmachine types, 7 infantry types and 4 character models.

Before making such claims, at least do a little research on the topic.

My post was a response on the quote from Scarletsquig.

Which is a lot more than mentioned in the quote of shelfunit.

That's why I said they are releasing units for armies and not armies.

I like the Corporation but how long will it take to have Corporation Apc/tanks... . Warpath isn't a Skirmish game, so I think Corporation vehicles really would be a nice addition. But when? Same for the Forgefathers and Marauders. A lot could be added, but instead of fleshing it out more they are already moving to the next "army" and then there is maybe fourth army "the vermin stuff".

Well if we are going to be like that, GW doesn't release armies either, they release a few kits each army book/codex and still have some massive gaps in their range. Nids have waited 2 years for some of their units. You can't seriously expect a small company like mantic to be able to release every single unit for one army in a short space of time when the biggest company in the buisness doesn't even do that. Fair point with the goblins as there is only one unit so far, but we do know another is coming and the spear unit seems to be like squig said a tester unit to see if that style will sell.

It has nothing do with GW.

And the nids problem is related to lawsuit with Chapterhouse studios. When GW releases a new armybook it will now have models for their new units.

I would love to have more fleshed out armies instead of trying to release lots of stuff for different armies and in the end no army is really finished.

[Thalandor]

Thank you for your input Nightsword, it's nice to have the perspective from someone on the inside.

But your supplier for the Corporation is not really unknown right, they're the same guys that cast some of your restic before ? So you know the quality is there... OR, they are new guys and they made you a good deal

Meh, anyways, you'll sell tons of these corporation minis for sure, just remember to invest the profits into revisiting the FF plastics (haha).

[redben]

I like the Corporation but how long will it take to have Corporation Apc/tanks... . Warpath isn't a Skirmish game, so I think Corporation vehicles really would be a nice addition. But when? Same for the Forgefathers and Marauders. A lot could be added, but instead of fleshing it out more they are already moving to the next "army" and then there is maybe fourth army "the vermin stuff".

The Corporation are the first Warpath release that has me interested in picking up the figures. Had Mantic continued just adding to the FF and Orx lines then this potential sale is lost for them. All they could do is keep selling to the small amount of their consumer base interested in those two armies. But then again, those armies and Warpath would never have been released as we'd probably still be seeing releases for the Dwarves at this point given the time it would have taken to get everything out for the Elves and Undead, which, again, would have appealed to a much narrower consumer base than releasing enough to be getting on with for each army.

Lets not misunderstand anything here, whilst I'm sure Mantic would love to reach a point where KoW and Warpath generate significant sales from their own consumer base, Mantic started out and still need to remain an alternative to GW to be able to generate the necessary sales. I have an Undead army from Mantic which I plan on using for VC. I don't need Mantic to release a proxy for each part of the VC army list. I can mix and match between Mantic and GW to get the best value and the best models from each range to get the army I want. Concentrating on releasing a full Undead army before going on to something else would have been counterproductive for Mantic.

Whilst it certainly isn't the case that Mantic never make a mistake, when looking at their overall business strategy try and understand that there will always be a good economic reason why Mantic release models when they do and how they do.

[imm0rtal reaper]

And the nids problem is related to lawsuit with Chapterhouse studios. When GW releases a new armybook it will now have models for their new units.

Not to take this too off topic, but that statement is ********!

Releasing ALL the models for an army book when it's released would create sales bubbles and mean parts of the year have small comparative sales, something that isn't going to look good from a shareholder point of view.

If GW release a tervigon, chapterhouse couldn't sure them, just look at the artwork in the nid codex, the CH one is clearly based on that artwork. Same with 3rd party thundrewolves, canis wolfborn isn't riding a cat. . .

In relation t mantic though: Would I love all the models for all the armies right now, of course, but I don't mind waiting as long as the end product is done right. And because mantic have recognised the problems with how they did the FF, I'm confident the future releases for both systems will be done right.

[mattjgilbert]

This is of topic Mantic-wise but..

I thought the point of the CH stuff was that it meant you _could_ produce a model if another company didn't already, regardless if they had already drawn a picture of it? That's why GW were waiting to release stuff to see which way the ruling went? That was my impression from reading the summaries - I've not been following the full detail.