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Thread: It is not easy predicting the future.

  1. #141
    Chapter Master brassangel's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    I think they are plenty excited about their product, they just have such an overwhelming amount of crap to release/deal with because of the hole they dug. They have made so many factions/armies for multiple systems, couple with being the largest "in-demand" company in the business, that they can't keep up with it.

    Also, if everyone is on a "once every 3-4 months" purchase plan, then they will do fine, because everyone has their different pet project. They can cover everyone in a 12-month window and see mega-profits every month. If their release and FAQ clip upholds it's recent trends, they will continue to dominate the market.

    I only wish they did more of the AoBR and IoB releases to make Entry cheaper.
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  2. #142
    Chapter Master de Selby's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by BramGaunt View Post
    Deep down we all know that whatever is released, someone will always be disappointed. ALWAYS.
    It's a little worse than that. When the possibilities are infinite but only one of them actually comes to fruition in a given month, MOST people are disappointed. Hence all the rage when February turned out to be a LOTR month, of all things. When people know where they are in the queue they tend to tolerate their wait better, I think.
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  3. #143
    Librarian Droma's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by de Selby View Post
    It's a little worse than that. When the possibilities are infinite but only one of them actually comes to fruition in a given month, MOST people are disappointed. Hence all the rage when February turned out to be a LOTR month, of all things. When people know where they are in the queue they tend to tolerate their wait better, I think.
    Agreed. I'm not excited, I'm frustrated and annoyed.
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  4. #144
    Veteran Sergeant fred953d's Avatar
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    And with tau (and eldar) said to perhaps first come in 2013 they stand with 2 cool looking armies no one wants to play a) because they have somewhat weak codex and b) because there are so many rules that just get faq'ed to fit the new rules....
    I know the marines are their "eternal pot of gold" but it doesn't make sense that they update fully working and competitive dexes before the ones that might come 2 rule edts.behind.
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  5. #145
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    I guess this kind of waiting that GW is putting us through now with no glimpse of the future is like standing at a crowded bar and just hope that you will get served. And since there is no line you can't even feel that "yeah, only 5 persons left until I can order" and be content. You just stand there and sometimes you see people that just arrived getting served at once while you have stood there for a quarter and still haven't gotten the barmans attention. Eventually you just give up and leave the bar.

    At least, that's kinda how I feel. And that feeling is annoyed.
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  6. #146
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    yeah, it's part of why I picked up a different army when I went to rebuild tau... I wanted something to play immediatly while I waited on my old friends the tau to catch up to the party =p

    Grey Knights are fun, but not near the shooty I like.
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  7. #147
    Commander Tiller5's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    I feel this thread is moving off topic, it is probably better to discuss such complaints over Games Workshop policy elsewhere. In my opinion, a better way of complaining about their policy is to write to them at head office, let them know how you feel - at the end of the day nothing will change by writing about it online.

    Please note that wasn't intended to cause offence or have a dig at anyone, just a general statement/suggestion about what I personally would and, indeed, have done (not with GW though).

    Back to the topic at hand, I'm very interested to see how this latest wave of models will look as my gaming group has players of Tyranids, Necrons and Space Wolves that would love to get their mitts on these (and I'd be tempted by isome Thunderwolves if indeed they are released, just to paint some up!). If the next White Dwarf has any previews, we've not got long left to wait!
    Last edited by Tiller5; 12-02-2012 at 13:09.
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  8. #148
    Chapter Master RandomThoughts's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    While I also find the new policy extremely annoying, I also beleve it's working for GW. First of all, I think the majority of their consumers don't really frequent forums like this, looking at rumor sections and stuff, they just visit the stores, read an issue of Whie Dwarf here or there, and for them being able to immediately buy some shiny new cool that caught there attention is way more attractive than waiting for a year until something they want eventually comes out.

    I'd like to support this argument with the prototype for an Eldar jetbike one of the designers apparently did on his own time a few years ago. "When does the new jetbike come out?" - "I'm really getting annoyed they didn't release that new jetbike yet!" - "I want to play an Eldar army, but I'm waiting for the new Jetbikes" - are pretty typical comments in all Eldar rumor threads, and I think they highlight exactly why GW might have started their current policy.

    I do agree that they overdid it, though, knowing 1-2 months in advance what will come out next seems like a sensible schedule, long enough to build some hype, and long enough for people to plan their budgets for release day purchases if they really want that, and more importantly: We as interested customers would feel a lot less stepchilded, kept out of the loop and utterly disregarded.

    I'd also like to address the impulse-buying stuff: I think what hasn't been talked about so far is impulse starting a new army. I noticed it myself, I'm mostly here in the rumors section because I'm desperate for updated Eldar and for news on 6th (hoping next edition will be less of a mess than the current one is). However, devoid of any Eldar news I somehow got tempted to start a small Necron force in the meanwhile, and now i's happening again with Dark Angels. What helped me resist the temptation was Warmachine - and the realization how much new stuff I would end up buying if I really started a second 40K army.

    So yeah, my Eldar are done and my gaming budget now goes to GW's competitor, but not because of their new secretive policy, and despite it I'm still hanging out at the 40K rumors forum, eager for any updates that might concern me...

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  9. #149
    Chapter Master Fable's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomThoughts View Post
    I'd like to support this argument with the prototype for an Eldar jetbike one of the designers apparently did on his own time a few years ago. "When does the new jetbike come out?" - "I'm really getting annoyed they didn't release that new jetbike yet!" - "I want to play an Eldar army, but I'm waiting for the new Jetbikes" - are pretty typical comments in all Eldar rumor threads, and I think they highlight exactly why GW might have started their current policy.
    If by "one of the designers apparently did on his own time a few years ago" you mean Jes Goodwin displayed at UKGD in 2007 explaining at the show that he was working on redesigning the DE and CW jetbikes to appear more as if they came from a singular cultural aesthetic, which is the case (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...=1#post1941467) I can see how it would have justifiably built anticipation. This seems less like an issue of GW needing to stop promoting things months in advance and more an issue of GW holding off showing models that are years out from completion/release.

    While I think your initial description of the origin of the bike is a bit dismissive that may not have been your intent. Some members might not be aware that the unidentified employee you were describing was Jes Goodwin. I'm not sure where the "on his own" came from as Jes explained that he was designing the two faction models at the same time and there was never any indication its creation was like the Manta from FW.
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  10. #150
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by trigger View Post
    For the most part I completely agree with you , most of the munger bashing is bit personal just frustration.

    The bit I don't agree on(sorry) is the space marine bit.
    I collect space wolves o have done for a long long time , they light the fire of intrest for me , not any other type of space marine. As an example
    Codex space wolf was one of the first codex out in 2nd then the last ( i think ) in 3rd (10 year gap ) no 4th then one in 5th (10year gap). To me when 2 tau codex come out while I'm waiting for mine is the same as you Xenos players waiting for yours.
    I'm not having ago (I blew me top a couple of days ago about space marine player bashing and I'm not doing it again)
    What I'm trying to get across is yes they may be "space marines" but to us players they are as different as eldar and dark eldar , Deamons and nids.
    I sympathise with any player waiting 10+ years for there codex or players still having to use 20 year old models because GW does not have a sensible game plan, but even us SM players have to wait just as long red marines have nothing to do with black or green marines.

    Trig


    http://www.badwargamers.co.uk/
    Quote Originally Posted by Harrold View Post
    While I understand what you mean, from my perspective the issue is: while yes, each army of space marines is different, it is CONCIEVABLE that each of the unique chapters could be rolled up into a single book of all space marines, and have their own specific rules. And at the very worst case, you could paint your marines whatever color you want using the vanilla codex. The same cannot be said for xenos armies - which is where people start to get rubbed raw. What could concievably be wrapped into a single book is instead spread out into 6, which means the wait for EVERYONE is extended because of it.
    While I am certainly not trying to blow your top, Trigger, I am talking about what Harrold mentions here. To use the red-headed sibling of the golden space marines as an example, are the raging World Eaters, the immortal Thousand Sons, the cultist-filled Alpha Legion, are they so similar to the specialist Iron Warriors that they can all share a single codex, but the Space Marines and Black Templars are so wildly different that a single codex with a few pages for each chapter's variation on common units is inconceivable? I heard an offhand story about the players asking GW why the blood angels and grey knights have a stormraven, while the other marines don't. The answer is said to have been that the stormraven is an 'old' variation of a vehicle that all the space marine armies will have. That's bull. It's not in other space marine armies because it hadn't been made up yet, plain and simple. And since GW doesn't do things like update books with articles in White Dwarf or in PDFs, people have to wait ~10 years for access to the same thing. When it does come out for the vanilla marines (in ~5 years since it's a space marine army), it'll be the same thing, with different weapon options. And by then no one will care, since there will be a newer, better, more undercosted vehicle to buy. And the other flavors of space marine will want the new thing, so their books will need an update sooner than a book that has had no new things in the last ten years.

    No one wants new things that don't exist. So the space marines have infinity new things, and they sell much better than the ten-year old armies with incomplete and discontinued models? So who do you think needs a new codex more?

    I understand what you mean about 'us players'. My orks have seen the Emperor's champion cut down many a nob, felt the psychic fury of chief librarian Tigurius, and certainly, I've known and feared Bjorn's clawed arm since second edition. But that's 'us players'. We're not even GW's primary target market anymore.

    To a newcomer, to a confused mother at christmas time, any marine army is the one they play in a different color. A unit of tactical marines is a unit of tactical marines, no matter the color. Bolters, power armour, ten in a box. They need a rhino or a razorback. Maybe you'll pick up a dreadnought, or some terminators. How about a land raider? There are so many copy-pasted units shared through the armies that every 'unique' army buys the same generic kit. Do you think the Iyanden Eldar need to buy Monoliths? How about the Imperial Guard, how many Carnifexes do you suppose the average army contains? None, because they're totally different armies. That's why they have totally different books.

    To the newcomer learning about tournaments, they soon learn about 'meq'. Marines are the army to beat, because there's so many of them. You can essentially ignore the various 'xenos' armies, because if you can kill a marine army, you can put down a low-armour horde army, which everyone else must be by default to be different to the marines. So you focus on killing marines. You need anti-tank for those transports. You need some way of dealing with their 3+ saves. You need some way to cut down the 2+ saves and force an invulnerable instead. How many non-marine armies have easy access to effective tank killers or power weapons? Every single space marine army reliably has these units which are purposely left out of xenos codexes for 'flavor' and 'variation'. Glaring weaknesses in their lists. And yet, for some reason, they're less popular at tournaments. They don't sell as well.

    For the orks, from one book, with a little creative renaming, I can field totally different armies. My deathskulls are filled with lootas, tanks and meks all shooting wildly while the deffdreads and killa kans take center stage. My snakebite boys march into battle alongside massive trampling squiggoths while boarboys flank the enemy's sides. This is possible through one book, so why couldn't the thunder wolf cavalry have been included in the vanilla codex? Surely the Salamanders might have some sort of reptilian equivalent. What about all the named razorback and predator variants? Why do they need five separate books instead of a similarly lovely two-page spread like the half-dozen types of Leman Russ? There is literally a book filled with the variations on daemon types. How exactly can the Chaos army make due with two statlines to technically represent any of those daemons all the same, but the types of land speeder are so unbearably different one book cannot contain them?

    At the end of the day, the general opinion seems to be that if any army was given half the attention of the Space Marines, they'd do just as well. Look how well-received the Dark Eldar were, or how many Guardsmen appear in tournaments now. And of course, when yet another space marine army with the same slightly varied units gets another six month spotlight, it does breed annoyance amongst the players who didn't realize they were buying the 'wrong' army when they started.

    While I can appreciate the space marine player's personal frustration at waiting in line for their army books with the rest of us, you at least have the other space marines to consider. The vanilla marine players know they're getting some kind of stormraven. It's a space marine vehicle that everyone will eventually get, like another variation of land raider. What about the tyranids? How could you have ever predicted the Trygon in a rumor blackout? What about the eldar? What models help foretell their future? Can the tau use 'that other tau army book' as a 'counts as' for a while until their proper book comes out? There are no rumors whatsoever, and for some reason, it's 'as intended'. While another space marine is released or re-released in finecast, holes in the xenos lines become more apparent as blisters disappear from the stores. A hard-pressed space wolf player could buy a unit of tactical marines, and using their bits box, turn them into blood claws. How exactly can my Iyanden friend convert wraithguard using the in-store models? So they'll turn to eBay, or more likely, turn to a different company's section of the store. GW doesn't see that money. So they say, 'well, the eldar don't sell as well. Release more space marines'. Every player understands this, but it's frustrating that GW doesn't.

    But they do. Consider what's rumoured to be coming out in March, compare it to the companies that have been making unofficial GW models and selling them, apparently like hotcakes. And all of a sudden, during all this litigation, GW has been planning on making models of things they've never even mentioned before, all the while trying to kill the companies who have long since listened to the fans and made these models available in some way. Anyone could have predicted that the thunder-wolf cavalry, a new unit with iconic imagery to the parent army, would have players trying to build their own. So why ignore the unit until other companies pump out these models?

    To summarize, when someone shows up on the forums with a rumor from 'their good drinking buddy who happens to be in GW's inner circle', people want to hear it. When it's something that makes the players stop and say 'that's stupid, tell your drinking buddy to tell GW', it's cool, because hey, GW cares, right? Feedback from the community is their reward for keeping players in the loop - it helps develop better products and a better game. But when it's been a dark ten years and GW can't even pretend to care, that drinking buddy clearly isn't explaining 'it' right, and people start to get unruly.

    (Sorry this is a bit long. )
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  11. #151
    Chapter Master RandomThoughts's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grot View Post
    While I am certainly not trying to blow your top, Trigger, I am talking about what Harrold mentions here. To use the red-headed sibling of the golden space marines as an example, are the raging World Eaters, the immortal Thousand Sons, the cultist-filled Alpha Legion, are they so similar to the specialist Iron Warriors that they can all share a single codex, but the Space Marines and Black Templars are so wildly different that a single codex with a few pages for each chapter's variation on common units is inconceivable? I heard an offhand story about the players asking GW why the blood angels and grey knights have a stormraven, while the other marines don't. The answer is said to have been that the stormraven is an 'old' variation of a vehicle that all the space marine armies will have. That's bull. It's not in other space marine armies because it hadn't been made up yet, plain and simple. And since GW doesn't do things like update books with articles in White Dwarf or in PDFs, people have to wait ~10 years for access to the same thing. When it does come out for the vanilla marines (in ~5 years since it's a space marine army), it'll be the same thing, with different weapon options. And by then no one will care, since there will be a newer, better, more undercosted vehicle to buy. And the other flavors of space marine will want the new thing, so their books will need an update sooner than a book that has had no new things in the last ten years.

    No one wants new things that don't exist. So the space marines have infinity new things, and they sell much better than the ten-year old armies with incomplete and discontinued models? So who do you think needs a new codex more?

    I understand what you mean about 'us players'. My orks have seen the Emperor's champion cut down many a nob, felt the psychic fury of chief librarian Tigurius, and certainly, I've known and feared Bjorn's clawed arm since second edition. But that's 'us players'. We're not even GW's primary target market anymore.

    To a newcomer, to a confused mother at christmas time, any marine army is the one they play in a different color. A unit of tactical marines is a unit of tactical marines, no matter the color. Bolters, power armour, ten in a box. They need a rhino or a razorback. Maybe you'll pick up a dreadnought, or some terminators. How about a land raider? There are so many copy-pasted units shared through the armies that every 'unique' army buys the same generic kit. Do you think the Iyanden Eldar need to buy Monoliths? How about the Imperial Guard, how many Carnifexes do you suppose the average army contains? None, because they're totally different armies. That's why they have totally different books.

    To the newcomer learning about tournaments, they soon learn about 'meq'. Marines are the army to beat, because there's so many of them. You can essentially ignore the various 'xenos' armies, because if you can kill a marine army, you can put down a low-armour horde army, which everyone else must be by default to be different to the marines. So you focus on killing marines. You need anti-tank for those transports. You need some way of dealing with their 3+ saves. You need some way to cut down the 2+ saves and force an invulnerable instead. How many non-marine armies have easy access to effective tank killers or power weapons? Every single space marine army reliably has these units which are purposely left out of xenos codexes for 'flavor' and 'variation'. Glaring weaknesses in their lists. And yet, for some reason, they're less popular at tournaments. They don't sell as well.

    For the orks, from one book, with a little creative renaming, I can field totally different armies. My deathskulls are filled with lootas, tanks and meks all shooting wildly while the deffdreads and killa kans take center stage. My snakebite boys march into battle alongside massive trampling squiggoths while boarboys flank the enemy's sides. This is possible through one book, so why couldn't the thunder wolf cavalry have been included in the vanilla codex? Surely the Salamanders might have some sort of reptilian equivalent. What about all the named razorback and predator variants? Why do they need five separate books instead of a similarly lovely two-page spread like the half-dozen types of Leman Russ? There is literally a book filled with the variations on daemon types. How exactly can the Chaos army make due with two statlines to technically represent any of those daemons all the same, but the types of land speeder are so unbearably different one book cannot contain them?

    At the end of the day, the general opinion seems to be that if any army was given half the attention of the Space Marines, they'd do just as well. Look how well-received the Dark Eldar were, or how many Guardsmen appear in tournaments now. And of course, when yet another space marine army with the same slightly varied units gets another six month spotlight, it does breed annoyance amongst the players who didn't realize they were buying the 'wrong' army when they started.

    While I can appreciate the space marine player's personal frustration at waiting in line for their army books with the rest of us, you at least have the other space marines to consider. The vanilla marine players know they're getting some kind of stormraven. It's a space marine vehicle that everyone will eventually get, like another variation of land raider. What about the tyranids? How could you have ever predicted the Trygon in a rumor blackout? What about the eldar? What models help foretell their future? Can the tau use 'that other tau army book' as a 'counts as' for a while until their proper book comes out? There are no rumors whatsoever, and for some reason, it's 'as intended'. While another space marine is released or re-released in finecast, holes in the xenos lines become more apparent as blisters disappear from the stores. A hard-pressed space wolf player could buy a unit of tactical marines, and using their bits box, turn them into blood claws. How exactly can my Iyanden friend convert wraithguard using the in-store models? So they'll turn to eBay, or more likely, turn to a different company's section of the store. GW doesn't see that money. So they say, 'well, the eldar don't sell as well. Release more space marines'. Every player understands this, but it's frustrating that GW doesn't.

    But they do. Consider what's rumoured to be coming out in March, compare it to the companies that have been making unofficial GW models and selling them, apparently like hotcakes. And all of a sudden, during all this litigation, GW has been planning on making models of things they've never even mentioned before, all the while trying to kill the companies who have long since listened to the fans and made these models available in some way. Anyone could have predicted that the thunder-wolf cavalry, a new unit with iconic imagery to the parent army, would have players trying to build their own. So why ignore the unit until other companies pump out these models?

    To summarize, when someone shows up on the forums with a rumor from 'their good drinking buddy who happens to be in GW's inner circle', people want to hear it. When it's something that makes the players stop and say 'that's stupid, tell your drinking buddy to tell GW', it's cool, because hey, GW cares, right? Feedback from the community is their reward for keeping players in the loop - it helps develop better products and a better game. But when it's been a dark ten years and GW can't even pretend to care, that drinking buddy clearly isn't explaining 'it' right, and people start to get unruly.

    (Sorry this is a bit long. )
    Can I kiss you?

    One of the best, most thorough and eloquently written posts I have ever seen on Warseer, and full of truth. Bravo!

    Thank you! Thank you!

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  12. #152
    Librarian Austinitor's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Re: the roll up bit, can you imagine how frustrating fantasy would be if every type of knight of the Empire or Bretonia got its own army book, with units inspired by the use of fairly silly plays-on-words?
    Last edited by Austinitor; 07-03-2012 at 20:44. Reason: changed Imperial to Empire
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  13. #153
    Chapter Master static grass's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grot View Post

    (Sorry this is a bit long. )
    Thats some fine rhetoric right there. Good job.
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  14. #154

    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grot View Post

    (Sorry this is a bit long. )
    I don't delurk often these days - but Grot, my god you're right.
    is est non iustus bonus. is est bonus satis
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  15. #155
    Chapter Master Rated_lexxx's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    Following recent events ....

    In an effort to show how tricky it is to predict anything very much with any accuracy and to demonstrate how much I get wrong. ....

    What follows is what I put together back in September 2011 (from various snippets) and shared with some guys back in October ... it is more or less word for word.

    You will see there are a lot of "?" in what follows.

    I had heard some very dodgy rumours regarding 40K releases in January ... non of those happened.
    Whilst I had Tau in as the first release of 2013 ... I also had it in with a ? against it in the first half of this year as I had heard this from a couple of people but was not convinced. I had heard March/April for Empire and was not sure which. LotR stuff started sooner than I thought. Next scenery came sooner than I thought. I had heard Eldar v's Chaos from two of the most reliable folks I ever hear stuff from .... but now it looks like that was wrong too .... (Never bet against hastings ... ever!) ... Read on.


    "This is what I think is going on. (I put this together after GD)
    You can see whilst I am confident of a release order ... it is a bit more tricky getting the month right.

    Fantasy Release Order:
    VC
    Empire
    WoC
    Dwarves

    40K Release Order:
    Necrons
    Chaos Space Marines. (Just before or right after 6th)
    Eldar
    Tau

    Sisters of Battle, Black Templars and waves or bits and bobs for Necrons/Nids/SW and IG also being worked on or done that need releasing somewhere?

    LotR
    Hobbit and bunch of other stuff for LotR (including Legions etc).

    2011
    Nov : Necrons
    Dec : Fantasy Terrain

    2012
    Jan : 40K Bits and Bobs. IG tank/T. Wolf cavaly/Finecast characters?
    Feb : Vampire Counts (Jan Or Feb) New paints Necron 2nd wave? (or later)
    Mar : Empire? Tau?
    Apr : Tau? Empire? More fantasy scenery.
    May : Tau? LotR stuff
    Jun : Tau? Chaos Space Marines.
    Jul : 6th edition.
    Aug : Warriors of Chaos
    Sep : Starter set : Eldar vs Chaos?
    Oct : First 6th edition release? Space Marines? (Collective assumtion ... I don't think so.) Chaos space marines? (My guess)
    Nov : THE HOBBIT!!!! BLOODBOWL???
    Eldar Second 6th edition release!
    Dec :

    2013

    First 40K release of 2013 (Feb?) Tau.
    More Nids Could be 2012 (Tervigon ??? Harpy??? I mentioned before)
    Sisters of Battle. Could be in 2012? (Heard at one time they were to be the first 40K release of 2012)"

    Obviously I now know lots of this was wrong ... but this is what I started with.
    It is amazing I get anything right at all.

    Still don't know what happened to Sisters of Battle.
    I have the flux capacitor if you got a delirium
    Orks vs.
    WIN-DRAW-LOST
    GK: 2-0-2...... BA:0-1-0....DA: 0-0-0
    IG: 4-0-1.......SM: 2-1-0...SW:0-0-0
    DEM: 3-1-1....DE: 1-0-0....ELD:0-0-0
    Ork: 2-1-1.....Tau: 1-0-0...NIDS:1-1-1
    BT: 1-0-1......Sob:1-0-0....NEC:3-0-1
    <

  16. #156
    Chapter Master Harry's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rated_lexxx View Post
    I have the flux capacitor if you got a delirium
    I have had the odd bit of delirium from time to time.

    But I think what you were after was a DeLorean.
    Founding father of J.A.D.E.D. Jerks Against Directors Extraordinary Decisions.
    My Project Log "This week I have mostly been painting ...."
    My other log of Vintage stuff: "A Blast from the Past"
    You might also like: "'Ere be Giants"
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  17. #157
    Commander Sotek's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    *still waiting for plastic Sisters*

    Wouldn't it show more competence if GW could announce their own stuff in advance while keeping a tight lid on LOTR/Hobbit stuff, rather than just a general blackout on communications?
    <

  18. #158
    Banned
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grot View Post
    While I am certainly not trying to blow your top, Trigger, I am talking about what Harrold mentions here. To use the red-headed sibling of the golden space marines as an example, are the raging World Eaters, the immortal Thousand Sons, the cultist-filled Alpha Legion, are they so similar to the specialist Iron Warriors that they can all share a single codex, but the Space Marines and Black Templars are so wildly different that a single codex with a few pages for each chapter's variation on common units is inconceivable? I heard an offhand story about the players asking GW why the blood angels and grey knights have a stormraven, while the other marines don't. The answer is said to have been that the stormraven is an 'old' variation of a vehicle that all the space marine armies will have. That's bull. It's not in other space marine armies because it hadn't been made up yet, plain and simple. And since GW doesn't do things like update books with articles in White Dwarf or in PDFs, people have to wait ~10 years for access to the same thing. When it does come out for the vanilla marines (in ~5 years since it's a space marine army), it'll be the same thing, with different weapon options. And by then no one will care, since there will be a newer, better, more undercosted vehicle to buy. And the other flavors of space marine will want the new thing, so their books will need an update sooner than a book that has had no new things in the last ten years.

    No one wants new things that don't exist. So the space marines have infinity new things, and they sell much better than the ten-year old armies with incomplete and discontinued models? So who do you think needs a new codex more?

    I understand what you mean about 'us players'. My orks have seen the Emperor's champion cut down many a nob, felt the psychic fury of chief librarian Tigurius, and certainly, I've known and feared Bjorn's clawed arm since second edition. But that's 'us players'. We're not even GW's primary target market anymore.

    To a newcomer, to a confused mother at christmas time, any marine army is the one they play in a different color. A unit of tactical marines is a unit of tactical marines, no matter the color. Bolters, power armour, ten in a box. They need a rhino or a razorback. Maybe you'll pick up a dreadnought, or some terminators. How about a land raider? There are so many copy-pasted units shared through the armies that every 'unique' army buys the same generic kit. Do you think the Iyanden Eldar need to buy Monoliths? How about the Imperial Guard, how many Carnifexes do you suppose the average army contains? None, because they're totally different armies. That's why they have totally different books.

    To the newcomer learning about tournaments, they soon learn about 'meq'. Marines are the army to beat, because there's so many of them. You can essentially ignore the various 'xenos' armies, because if you can kill a marine army, you can put down a low-armour horde army, which everyone else must be by default to be different to the marines. So you focus on killing marines. You need anti-tank for those transports. You need some way of dealing with their 3+ saves. You need some way to cut down the 2+ saves and force an invulnerable instead. How many non-marine armies have easy access to effective tank killers or power weapons? Every single space marine army reliably has these units which are purposely left out of xenos codexes for 'flavor' and 'variation'. Glaring weaknesses in their lists. And yet, for some reason, they're less popular at tournaments. They don't sell as well.

    For the orks, from one book, with a little creative renaming, I can field totally different armies. My deathskulls are filled with lootas, tanks and meks all shooting wildly while the deffdreads and killa kans take center stage. My snakebite boys march into battle alongside massive trampling squiggoths while boarboys flank the enemy's sides. This is possible through one book, so why couldn't the thunder wolf cavalry have been included in the vanilla codex? Surely the Salamanders might have some sort of reptilian equivalent. What about all the named razorback and predator variants? Why do they need five separate books instead of a similarly lovely two-page spread like the half-dozen types of Leman Russ? There is literally a book filled with the variations on daemon types. How exactly can the Chaos army make due with two statlines to technically represent any of those daemons all the same, but the types of land speeder are so unbearably different one book cannot contain them?

    At the end of the day, the general opinion seems to be that if any army was given half the attention of the Space Marines, they'd do just as well. Look how well-received the Dark Eldar were, or how many Guardsmen appear in tournaments now. And of course, when yet another space marine army with the same slightly varied units gets another six month spotlight, it does breed annoyance amongst the players who didn't realize they were buying the 'wrong' army when they started.

    While I can appreciate the space marine player's personal frustration at waiting in line for their army books with the rest of us, you at least have the other space marines to consider. The vanilla marine players know they're getting some kind of stormraven. It's a space marine vehicle that everyone will eventually get, like another variation of land raider. What about the tyranids? How could you have ever predicted the Trygon in a rumor blackout? What about the eldar? What models help foretell their future? Can the tau use 'that other tau army book' as a 'counts as' for a while until their proper book comes out? There are no rumors whatsoever, and for some reason, it's 'as intended'. While another space marine is released or re-released in finecast, holes in the xenos lines become more apparent as blisters disappear from the stores. A hard-pressed space wolf player could buy a unit of tactical marines, and using their bits box, turn them into blood claws. How exactly can my Iyanden friend convert wraithguard using the in-store models? So they'll turn to eBay, or more likely, turn to a different company's section of the store. GW doesn't see that money. So they say, 'well, the eldar don't sell as well. Release more space marines'. Every player understands this, but it's frustrating that GW doesn't.

    But they do. Consider what's rumoured to be coming out in March, compare it to the companies that have been making unofficial GW models and selling them, apparently like hotcakes. And all of a sudden, during all this litigation, GW has been planning on making models of things they've never even mentioned before, all the while trying to kill the companies who have long since listened to the fans and made these models available in some way. Anyone could have predicted that the thunder-wolf cavalry, a new unit with iconic imagery to the parent army, would have players trying to build their own. So why ignore the unit until other companies pump out these models?

    To summarize, when someone shows up on the forums with a rumor from 'their good drinking buddy who happens to be in GW's inner circle', people want to hear it. When it's something that makes the players stop and say 'that's stupid, tell your drinking buddy to tell GW', it's cool, because hey, GW cares, right? Feedback from the community is their reward for keeping players in the loop - it helps develop better products and a better game. But when it's been a dark ten years and GW can't even pretend to care, that drinking buddy clearly isn't explaining 'it' right, and people start to get unruly.

    (Sorry this is a bit long. )
    OMG. I haven't seen this post till today. And must say i agree with all you said. You expressed my thoughts better than i ever could due to my limited english language skills.

    I agree with MajorWes, this is one of the best posts EVER. Added to my favourites.
    <

  19. #159
    Chaplain Slashattack's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grot View Post
    While I am certainly not trying to blow your top, Trigger, I am talking about what Harrold mentions here. To use the red-headed sibling of the golden space marines as an example, are the raging World Eaters, the immortal Thousand Sons, the cultist-filled Alpha Legion, are they so similar to the specialist Iron Warriors that they can all share a single codex, but the Space Marines and Black Templars are so wildly different that a single codex with a few pages for each chapter's variation on common units is inconceivable? I heard an offhand story about the players asking GW why the blood angels and grey knights have a stormraven, while the other marines don't. The answer is said to have been that the stormraven is an 'old' variation of a vehicle that all the space marine armies will have. That's bull. It's not in other space marine armies because it hadn't been made up yet, plain and simple. And since GW doesn't do things like update books with articles in White Dwarf or in PDFs, people have to wait ~10 years for access to the same thing. When it does come out for the vanilla marines (in ~5 years since it's a space marine army), it'll be the same thing, with different weapon options. And by then no one will care, since there will be a newer, better, more undercosted vehicle to buy. And the other flavors of space marine will want the new thing, so their books will need an update sooner than a book that has had no new things in the last ten years.

    No one wants new things that don't exist. So the space marines have infinity new things, and they sell much better than the ten-year old armies with incomplete and discontinued models? So who do you think needs a new codex more?

    I understand what you mean about 'us players'. My orks have seen the Emperor's champion cut down many a nob, felt the psychic fury of chief librarian Tigurius, and certainly, I've known and feared Bjorn's clawed arm since second edition. But that's 'us players'. We're not even GW's primary target market anymore.

    To a newcomer, to a confused mother at christmas time, any marine army is the one they play in a different color. A unit of tactical marines is a unit of tactical marines, no matter the color. Bolters, power armour, ten in a box. They need a rhino or a razorback. Maybe you'll pick up a dreadnought, or some terminators. How about a land raider? There are so many copy-pasted units shared through the armies that every 'unique' army buys the same generic kit. Do you think the Iyanden Eldar need to buy Monoliths? How about the Imperial Guard, how many Carnifexes do you suppose the average army contains? None, because they're totally different armies. That's why they have totally different books.

    To the newcomer learning about tournaments, they soon learn about 'meq'. Marines are the army to beat, because there's so many of them. You can essentially ignore the various 'xenos' armies, because if you can kill a marine army, you can put down a low-armour horde army, which everyone else must be by default to be different to the marines. So you focus on killing marines. You need anti-tank for those transports. You need some way of dealing with their 3+ saves. You need some way to cut down the 2+ saves and force an invulnerable instead. How many non-marine armies have easy access to effective tank killers or power weapons? Every single space marine army reliably has these units which are purposely left out of xenos codexes for 'flavor' and 'variation'. Glaring weaknesses in their lists. And yet, for some reason, they're less popular at tournaments. They don't sell as well.

    For the orks, from one book, with a little creative renaming, I can field totally different armies. My deathskulls are filled with lootas, tanks and meks all shooting wildly while the deffdreads and killa kans take center stage. My snakebite boys march into battle alongside massive trampling squiggoths while boarboys flank the enemy's sides. This is possible through one book, so why couldn't the thunder wolf cavalry have been included in the vanilla codex? Surely the Salamanders might have some sort of reptilian equivalent. What about all the named razorback and predator variants? Why do they need five separate books instead of a similarly lovely two-page spread like the half-dozen types of Leman Russ? There is literally a book filled with the variations on daemon types. How exactly can the Chaos army make due with two statlines to technically represent any of those daemons all the same, but the types of land speeder are so unbearably different one book cannot contain them?

    At the end of the day, the general opinion seems to be that if any army was given half the attention of the Space Marines, they'd do just as well. Look how well-received the Dark Eldar were, or how many Guardsmen appear in tournaments now. And of course, when yet another space marine army with the same slightly varied units gets another six month spotlight, it does breed annoyance amongst the players who didn't realize they were buying the 'wrong' army when they started.

    While I can appreciate the space marine player's personal frustration at waiting in line for their army books with the rest of us, you at least have the other space marines to consider. The vanilla marine players know they're getting some kind of stormraven. It's a space marine vehicle that everyone will eventually get, like another variation of land raider. What about the tyranids? How could you have ever predicted the Trygon in a rumor blackout? What about the eldar? What models help foretell their future? Can the tau use 'that other tau army book' as a 'counts as' for a while until their proper book comes out? There are no rumors whatsoever, and for some reason, it's 'as intended'. While another space marine is released or re-released in finecast, holes in the xenos lines become more apparent as blisters disappear from the stores. A hard-pressed space wolf player could buy a unit of tactical marines, and using their bits box, turn them into blood claws. How exactly can my Iyanden friend convert wraithguard using the in-store models? So they'll turn to eBay, or more likely, turn to a different company's section of the store. GW doesn't see that money. So they say, 'well, the eldar don't sell as well. Release more space marines'. Every player understands this, but it's frustrating that GW doesn't.

    But they do. Consider what's rumoured to be coming out in March, compare it to the companies that have been making unofficial GW models and selling them, apparently like hotcakes. And all of a sudden, during all this litigation, GW has been planning on making models of things they've never even mentioned before, all the while trying to kill the companies who have long since listened to the fans and made these models available in some way. Anyone could have predicted that the thunder-wolf cavalry, a new unit with iconic imagery to the parent army, would have players trying to build their own. So why ignore the unit until other companies pump out these models?

    To summarize, when someone shows up on the forums with a rumor from 'their good drinking buddy who happens to be in GW's inner circle', people want to hear it. When it's something that makes the players stop and say 'that's stupid, tell your drinking buddy to tell GW', it's cool, because hey, GW cares, right? Feedback from the community is their reward for keeping players in the loop - it helps develop better products and a better game. But when it's been a dark ten years and GW can't even pretend to care, that drinking buddy clearly isn't explaining 'it' right, and people start to get unruly.

    (Sorry this is a bit long. )
    Best post I've ever read on Warseer. I think your post explains simply why fantasy is currently the game to play, not 40k because of one thing, marines.

    Slash
    <

  20. #160
    Chapter Master The Dude's Avatar
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    Re: It is not easy predicting the future.

    This thread has served it's purpose.

    Thread closed

    The Dude
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    The Tale of Guilders

    That's just... like... your opinion, man.

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