What is it about Warmachine/Hordes that you don't like?

[DeeKay]

Truth is, most of the things people have said they dislike about the system are what make the system different to others.

The "caster-kill" issue is one of the best examples. The infantry that you prize can be smashed apart and you could even lose your favourite jack in a failed assassination run, but so long as you have your caster, you're in with a chance of winning. Other games I could mention are often decided by a single combat/magic phase/unit choice anyway after which the game becomes increasingly one-sided so where's the difference?

Page 5 is essentially a matter of perception. Someone could have read it as an excuse to be a douche and used it as such. Others use it the 5 rules to inform their gaming equitette. Can be annoying but when done right, it leads to some really good games.

The model quality is one of my gripes. PP range from incredibly awesome (most casters, jacks, and units like Knights Exemplar) to incredibly naff (Fiona the Black springs to mind). GW has better quality moulds, but the wow factor seems to lack in recent times. As for metals vs finecast, I've heard no end of people complain about the quality of finecast and a wish for a return to metals.

With regards,
Dan.

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

As an outsider the number one thing that has me not jumping right in is the game feels a bit limited in the realm of customization. Sure, I can repose any of the models, but I can't have a custom character as my warcaster or anything similar. This is coming from some of my favourite mini games being ones that let me build the characters I want such as Warhammer Quest, Inquisitor, Necromunda, or Mordheim. I like knowing that character on the table is mine and there isn't likely to be anybody with the same exact character as myself. This is the same primary complaint I have with other systems that look good on the surface such as Malifaux so it's far from a complaint that is limited to Warmahordes, but it is still one of my favourite aspects of some of my favourite games.

On the other hand, I subscribe to No Quarter and not White Dwarf as I get more out of No Quarter thanks to the hobby articles. I end up reading other articles and the more I read the more I want to play. The system seems rather solid from reading the articles. The caster kill thing bothers me a little, but at the same time Undead in Warhammer Fantasy have to deal with something similar and in other games things can fall apart if the leader falls so it makes sense. There are also other games like chess where this is a precedence. Overall, from my reading the game feels a bit like a cross between Magic the Gathering and Chess if you had to march your king out to the middle of the board.

Page five was a bit of a turn off at first, but I realize it is the developers trying to impart some information without getting too serious that Warmachine/Hordes requires a more aggressive playstyle than some players are probably used to. I think that for most new players page five is likely to be the biggest pill to swallow and a lot of it will have to do with the spirit of the players in their community. There is a really strong local community here with really nice players so perhaps that has helped me when looking at page five.

I would also like a campaign system for the growth of individuals or units. This is directly tied to the character customization aspects however. I saw the cards in the latest issue of No Quarter for the campaign play and that seems pretty cool and a step toward what I am talking about.

I hope that helps anyone looking for outsider opinions. I feel like the game is a lot more accessible with mII partly because at least with my local store it sees a lot more play. Part of the reason for playing 40K was the same reason so many people played World of Warcraft or Dungeons & Dragons. Everybody knows somebody that played those so that is where the people were. Not many people want to invest heavy in a game just to find out that they can't find someone to play with. Privateer Press is making quite a bit of headway in this area so if there was somebody a few years ago that you couldn't get to try Warmahordes then now might be a good time to broach the subject again. If nothing else, see about getting a table or two for Warmahordes on the same night people are playing the other mini games. You will likely see interests rise after a few times of doing this.

[Keravin]

What function do they fulfill?

Speed bump, spray attacks that worry stealth troops, cheap troops that prevent charge lanes.

As for Retribution being behind - yes they are, but Wrath I felt helped a lot in that respect (or will do when the new type of jack hits the shelves). They get one Epic at least in Colossals with Vyros. Their main issue in my eyes is lack of ability to deal with stealth.

[Necromancy Black]

Page five was a bit of a turn off at first, but I realize it is the developers trying to impart some information without getting too serious that Warmachine/Hordes requires a more aggressive playstyle than some players are probably used to.

Yeah, it really is. It's not as much the case of "Go hard or go home" but more of "This system is designed to go hard. You're gonna get more out of your army and do more damage to the opposition by getting the jump on them before they get the jump on you".

[WarmbloodedLizard]

I'm rather new to the game (1 game, but tons of battle reports watched/threads read) and the things that I dislike about the game are:

-Metal models breaking appart (damn crossbows on MHSF!)
-UA is often so good, that it is a no brainer (though units are usually still good without it)
-units are very expensive (moneywise)
-I don't like steampunk too much (to mitigate this, I just prentend that it's sci-fi )
-no battlebox for retribution
-lack of plastic units (I don't mind solos, warcasters, etc. but think that units should become plastic sometime in the future (mainly because of prices))
-warjacks aren't as important as I thought initially (doesn't matter much gameplaywise, just expectationswise)

(I think I didn't get to see most of the negative sides of Warmachine as they all happened before MK II. At the moment I'm just in awe at the fact that PP are so much more awesome than GW in almost any way except for a lack of plastics. I really hope PP never becomes a publicly traded company.)


other things mentioned in the thred:
-I like casterkill. (For those that don't like it, there are still scenarios that are easier to accomplish than to kill the enemy caster.)
-I like page 5. (It's not arrogant. Just a funny way to explain to certain people that other players aren't evil WAAC jackasses, just because they bring good combos and play hard. No designer-encouraged "it's not in the spirit of the game"-whining.)

[Bingo the Fun Monkey]

In the past I would have listed one of my top gripes being the lack of customization of individual characters. However, it is that very lack of customization that makes the game my go-to game every time given the choice: it's balanced. Sure there are certain internal balance issues, but whatever. The problem is that the more variables you have, the easier it is to exploit. Even if there were customizable warcasters with hundreds of options, I can imagine that after 2 months there will only be 5 "competitive" builds and the rest are just "fluffy". For a company such as GW which places less emphasis on competition and more on "immersion", this is totally acceptable and forms a cornerstone of my favorite part of that hobby. For Warmachine, the customization comes from how you build your force and how you choose to use it. I feel that I can "express" my self just as well through what I have chosen to play and how I play it just as well as I can "express" myself writing 5 pages of fluff for my Orc Warboss.

[Warp Zero]

The Caster kill was irritating at first, but now I like it. It gives all armies a weakness and it gives you the chance to turn an impending defeat into a victory.

But I am probably quite the Warmahordes fanboy

It's interesting how often this is coming up in the thread. Speaking for myself, I've been on the fence about it. Do I like it or do I dislike it? In the negative column I feel it makes the game feel a tiny bit too much like walking a tight rope. Any little mistake will throw you off balance and get your caster killed. Then again, that's why people do things that get their blood pumping (like walking tight ropes). It's because they like the rush. It's a game play preference. If you want to play a game where you feel safe for a majority of the game, then you play a different game. I assume PP meant for the game to feel tense from the start of Turn 1.

Also, like others have said, it always gives a player an opportunity to win the day even if most of his models are gone. The attrition factor isn't huge a factor if you always have the ability to get a caster kill. In other games, if you have a bad beginning, you can find yourself drastically behind the curve or plainly just unable to ever get back into a position to win. So the caster kill mitigates a bit of that.

On the other hand, it can also frustrate a really good player who, worked hard to neutralize the enemy's army down to a few models, only to have it undone by some really crazy "hail mary pass" assassination run. Like I said, most times I think I'm unsure where I stand on this.

I think for now, my opinion is this: I like the caster kill.
But this has a extra bit to it. I like it, but my gripe is that there are maybe a bit too many ways to trump whatever tactic a person is using to protect his caster.

With abilities to shoot through things, knock down things, pull things, charge through things, lob over things, etc, etc .... there's just a ton of ways to get to a caster. Which I agree, is what the game needs (or else people will just "turtle" all day). If it's too easy to protect the caster, it becomes a non existent factor. But my feeling, is that there are just a tiny (notice the word 'tiny') bit too many ways to bypass the tactics to protect a caster. I feel that some of those ways should be just left as viable ways without a trump card easily available. If the enemy needs to get to the caster, then let them get to the caster the old fashion way. Maneuver, whittle his army down, get to the crunchy nugget center. Let a few old simple boring tactics work. It can be nice to have simple things players can always count on rather than everything having it's own kryptonite (when it comes to protecting the caster that is).

I hope that helps anyone looking for outsider opinions.

It totally helps! Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts. I appreciate it.

@the OP
Really? Did you actually expect a fair and objective discussion? Come on lol

All you've done is create another pointless bitchfest for people to trash an extremely unique and interesting game system. They even have a faction for all these whiners.....Trolls
Not going to single any specific people out but come on....comparing to 40k? Who freaking cares!!!!
2 completely different game mechanics with barely anything in common. I love 40k, Fantasy as well, but Warmachine just adds a different twist to things.
But then all the whining and complaining about have and have not factions and overpowered stuff. I will admit I have gotten a whee bit uppity when facing some rather evil Legion spams but most of this thread is just ridiculous...*sigh*
Fair and objective discussion my **** . MODs do a favor and close this crud lol.

I think people have been civil so far. I'm pretty proud of those who have posted here. No one has posted any flaming comments yet. So far people have just said "I don't like this". I don't find anything offensive about that.

Warmachine/Hordes is a really cool game. There are a lot of people who agree obviously. I assure you, I did not create this thread to troll. Sincerely. No worries though, I can see how you might think that was a possibility. I created this thread so I can know about the things people don't like. Like I said, when I got into this game, there were no shortages of great things to say about the game. I just wanted to hear the other half. It helps me understand the elements that people from other games don't like and why. By the way, this helps me demo the game. I've gotten several people to join in my local group by running a demo. Also, I'm always making home brew game systems. I may never publish but I like examining what works for some people and what doesn't.

[mattman154]

Just wanted to chime in and say that their is an official battlebox for Ret. It in ludes Kaellysa, Manticore, Griffon, and Chimera. There is no collected box, but this is the list endorsed for the Journeyman League.

[commanddarksun]

where? ive never heard of it?

[mattman154]

where? ive never heard of it?

Privateerpress.com>Organized PLay>leagues>Journeyman League>Core Rules

[Voss]

What is it about Warmachine/Hordes that you don't like?

Well, since you asked, I'll give you some background. I got into the game way back, around Escalation (the first expansion book, back in the Mk I days). And was really pleased with it. The crazy out of wack stuff in Superiority put me off for a while, but Mk II drew me back in, largely because they reined in the stupid stuff (notably the stuff that, playing in a random tournament, allowed my opponent to completely and utterly kill my dire troll mauler on turn 1 before I'd done anything but set up).

So Mark II was great. But lately (last 9 months or so), things have been putting me off. Partly, admittedly, it was because I relocated and there wasn't much of a group here in the Wastelands, and the people that were here... were rather bad. Basically it was the new guys and the not so new guy who stomped them every week. And faced with an opponent he couldn't stomp, he whined and complained and basically made it unfun. Unfortunate, but hey, this was a six month posting and whatever, I could take a break from playing and just paint for a while. Then, as it turned out, my job was extended (which was all sorts of good from an income and future prospects perspective, but bad for gaming, but still, I could live with it- painting and other hobbies can take up the slack for an extra year at a good income, especially with times being what they are).

About the same time, however, came the previous WM book and now Domination. And I thought, huh. Some of these things are neat. The new cygnar/merc warcaster. The avenger. A few other bits here and there. But then there are the battle engines, which with a few exceptions, are total flops. And increased faction homogenization, and a fair amount of filler stuff- there is almost too much stuff at this point, and some of it remains clearly inferior to other choices, especially when you consider the homogenized abilities everyone is getting. And then the unbound rules, which signal to me a desire to take it from a skirmish game to an army level game, which will never really work with the current ruleset (too complex, too slow for that scale, but perfect for the skirmish format I actually enjoy). And now hard on the heels of the battle engines of expensive badness come the colossals. Which are to be bigger, even more expensive, and still probably not worth taking in the place of a jack or two. And they're another push away from the skirmish level, which bodes poorly.

Finally there is the increasing focus on useless crap, personified in the War Room (or whatever), an app for the bloody useless phone toys that people seem obsessed with waving around in place of a brain. (Or so it seems to me after another day in a traffic, watching other people at traffic lights bow their heads for some odd reason...)

So, yeah. Feeling a little jaded, and feeling like the game is going off in a direction diametrically opposed to what makes it good. Plus I've gone through the skirmish game to 'army-level' game before with the Warhammers. I've no desire to do it again.

I'm also pretty much on a break from the game at this point. Given whats new and whats coming, I don't have any desire to pick up anything until the IKrpg relaunch this summer, which given the rate I was purchasing stuff, is rather sad. Hopefully that will rekindle my interest, because I do like the setting. I will finally be relocating around the same time, so hopefully that will help as well.

[Ronin[XiC]]

Excuse me?
THe Battle Engines are NOT a flop! Retribution loves its one. Cygnar is also pretty amazing (eHaley Tier List with 2 of them is evil). Cryx is pretty meh, but not bad.
Warrom is just a nice thing you CAN use. It already existed in a free version called iBodger, so nothing really changed here. Oh and it didn't really take away any manpower.. they released it at the same time as the Collossals O_o

Just because you personally dislike something, does NOT make it "useless crap".

[Dyrnwyn]

Finally there is the increasing focus on useless crap, personified in the War Room (or whatever), an app for the bloody useless phone toys that people seem obsessed with waving around in place of a brain.

No offense Voss, but this strikes me as needlessly Luddite of you. I agree with the direction of the game moving toward large battles is unwelcome, but War Room is a genuinely good thing - you can get all the cards for a faction cheaper than the physical decks, which don't even have all the cards in them. It's set up so you can just share your list (and cards) with your opponent so he doesn't have to constantly ask to see your cards, and he has your list available for fact-checking or battle reports later. It tracks damage on the cards so you aren't also required to go buy another pack of deck protectors and wet or dry erase markers.

More importantly - it saves space and weight. I've already moved to using a Nook with .pdf copies of my rulebooks over actually lugging the books to game night - which frees up room in my bag and makes it lighter I could put War Room on that and leave my cards at home. I suspect that War Room isn't directed a phones (though it no doubt will run on them), but at Android tablets and iPads - both of which I have seen turning up at games nights with increasing frequency to replace rulebooks.

[HRM]

Those bloody useless phone toys are an important element of some peoples' jobs. Not mine, certainly, but SOME peoples'.

[Voss]

Excuse me?
THe Battle Engines are NOT a flop! Retribution loves its one. Cygnar is also pretty amazing (eHaley Tier List with 2 of them is evil). Cryx is pretty meh, but not bad.

Hurrah. 2 of 8 are pretty good and amazing. Hence mostly

Just because you personally dislike something, does NOT make it "useless crap".

Just because you personally like something, does not make it good.
Anyway, that wasn't my point. Hiding damage and status on the phone/tablet/whatever rather than having them openly on the table is bad for the game.
Full stop. All that information should (according to the rules) but completely and freely available to both players, and the best way to do that is have it on the table, not put it on an electronic device that people may be reluctant to hand over to the opponent (and naturally so since its expensive crap, and you never really know if you can trust 'Mutton-hands Joe' across the table).

Cards come with the models, and you don't really need any book but Prime. If thats too much of a burden for people to bear, I respectfully suggest that they have some work to do.

No offense Voss, but this strikes me as needlessly Luddite of you.

Maybe one day when the game is replaced by an internet-only holographic table, I'll run around to people's homes smashing them. But for now I'll content myself with a negative view of the random insertion of tech into everything, whether its actually useful or an improvement or not. This sort of thing adds no value to me. Indeed, its more of a problem than an improvement, because it really does have the potential to impede the game. If we're going to have a face to face match, put your stuff on the table and lets go. Lets not spend half of it poking at a phone or tablet.

Add in the social factor as well. Part of the reason I game is to talk to people, shoot the breeze & etc. I still view it as bad manners to pick up a phone in a social situation and focus on it rather than the people around you.

[Ronin[XiC]]

Hurrah. 2 of 8 are pretty good and amazing. Hence mostly

Cygnar, Menoth, Khador, Ret, Trolls, Legion are all pretty good.
Cryx and Skorne are not THAT great but pSkaare seems like a great caster for the Cryxsname and the Skorne is not even released thus the available playtime is very limited.
So 6 out of 8 are pretty good and only 1 has got some severe problem.
I'd call that pretty good!

Anyway, that wasn't my point. Hiding damage and status on the phone/tablet/whatever rather than having them openly on the table is bad for the game.

If both players have the app, you can always check the cards of your opponents with all the rules AND the applied damage!

Full stop. All that information should (according to the rules) but completely and freely available to both players, and the best way to do that is have it on the table, not put it on an electronic device that people may be reluctant to hand over to the opponent (and naturally so since its expensive crap, and you never really know if you can trust 'Mutton-hands Joe' across the table).

You hand over the cards to your opponent if he wants to check something.
You hand over the devide to your opponent if he wants to check something OR he can check on his own using his own deivse.
I honestly don't see your point?!
I can as EASILY wipe off half the damage on my jacks on cards as on the dive.
Again, I don't see your point.

Cards come with the models, and you don't really need any book but Prime. If thats too much of a burden for people to bear, I respectfully suggest that they have some work to do.

And you don't have to buy the app. You do not have to use it. So your additional costs are 0 currency.
Some people don't have MKII cards because the models are very old or second hand. They had an option to buy the card deck for 17$ or bring the faction book. Now they can buy the app for 7$.
Again: You have no point.

Maybe one day when the game is replaced by an internet-only holographic table, I'll run around to people's homes smashing them. But for now I'll content myself with a negative view of the random insertion of tech into everything, whether its actually useful or an improvement or not. This sort of thing adds no value to me. Indeed, its more of a problem than an improvement, because it really does have the potential to impede the game. If we're going to have a face to face match, put your stuff on the table and lets go. Lets not spend half of it poking at a phone or tablet.

Ah ok, now it's all clear: You are afraid of technology.
What's the difference between browsing the faction/Rulebook for a rule than poking a phone to get to the rule 10 times as fast?

Add in the social factor as well. Part of the reason I game is to talk to people, shoot the breeze & etc. I still view it as bad manners to pick up a phone in a social situation and focus on it rather than the people around you.

WHat's the difference between reading a BOOK that is 4 times the size of a modern smartphone to using a tiny smartphone? The cards are as big as most phones.
Second: You could use the phone to browse the internet before the relase of Warroom.
Again: You don't have a point.


Sorry dude, but all you brought up was DOOOOOOOOOOOM without having spent a single moment to reflect on your fears and your position.

Warrom is an ADDITIONAL and VOLUNTARY tool you CAN use but don't HAVE TO. Cards will still be part of EVERY blister/box.

[Glen_Savet]

I dislike the fact that in a game called Warmachine, it is nearly impossible to play with just warjacks and expect to do well.

[ICLRK625]

That's completely untrue. It's impossible to play with all Warjacks with some casters, sure, but nearly every faction has a caster that can use all Warjacks/Warbeasts and compete with high tier casters. Hell, Mortenebra is one of Cryx's top 3 casters I think.

[Ronin[XiC]]

It's a shame that you can't just use Warhammers in a warhammer army My Orcs and Goblins have ZERO ways to use one!

[Glen_Savet]

That's completely untrue. It's impossible to play with all Warjacks with some casters, sure, but nearly every faction has a caster that can use all Warjacks/Warbeasts and compete with high tier casters. Hell, Mortenebra is one of Cryx's top 3 casters I think.

Do they use nothing but warjacks? No units or attachments of ANY kind? I've never seen an effective list using NOTHING but warjacks.