What is it about Warmachine/Hordes that you don't like?

[Wishing]

Actualy PP themselves run and promote year round global leagues broken into seasons. Each season comes with special alternate rules for certain models in each faction with the card made available both online and trough No Quarter Magazine. Here's a link to the current seasons' cards:

http://privateerpress.com/files/gnar...%20REDUCED.pdf

Maybe it's because I'm an older gamer who loves running things like micro-campaigns and participating in leagues, I've made unique upgrades that could be applied to units as they played trough a league in games ranging from 40k and Epic to AT-43, Battletech and Warmachine, but I really don't think my take on the game is unique, especialy when Privateer themselves promote such play officialy.

Running one day campaigns where previous victories grant a player extra rules/abilities/points in the final game or simply saying that the player who pulls off the most power attacks in this turn will get d6 extra focus on their caster durring a casual game is not unique to me (because I borrowed those ideas from others) and are not prevented by the rules system or company. You will always find a minority of players for any rules system who are purists, who only want to play official rules with official models with official terrain with official scenarios. Just because they like their way of playing the game doesn't stop other players from doing their own thing.

I'm familiar with the league rules and how they introduce variations on existing models. I can also appreciate the idea that special scenarios and mini-campaigns are not alien to PP games. What I was thinking of was more like when players write their own army books, codexes and supplements for entirely new creations of their own. You may see that as the players crying out in anguish because GW's rules are so bad that they have to make up their own (), but I see this as a positive and creative thing that goes beyond special add-on rules for scenarios, and which is something I personally only see in the GW community and not in the PP community - because PP's games aren't built so that players can easily do that, whereas GW's games (by virtue of their non-competitive nature) are.

Back to the main point, though - do the games attract a certain type of player, or do the games dictate what sort of player a gamer will become? And what of those who play both?

I assume players that play both (like myself) are simply players that can appreciate both a non-competitive sandbox game and a competitive polished game, and enjoy both from time to time. As to whether the chicken or egg came first, I'd say it's different for each individual player. I myself was definitely taught to appreciate the GW approach from playing GW games and likewise with PP, but at the same time I wouldn't have stayed long with either game type if I hadn't had the capacity in me to appreciate both of them before I started.

[Deadnight]

I'm familiar with the league rules and how they introduce variations on existing models. I can also appreciate the idea that special scenarios and mini-campaigns are not alien to PP games. What I was thinking of was more like when players write their own army books, codexes and supplements for entirely new creations of their own. You may see that as the players crying out in anguish because GW's rules are so bad that they have to make up their own (), but I see this as a positive and creative thing that goes beyond special add-on rules for scenarios, and which is something I personally only see in the GW community and not in the PP community - because PP's games aren't built so that players can easily do that, whereas GW's games (by virtue of their non-competitive nature) are.

and of all those home made army books, codexes and supplements, how many of them are any good? To me, you can be as creative as you want, but whats the point if you cant take it anywhere? all it leads to is frustration, and a fractured community. with all due respect, you can go on and on about the sandbox nature of this home-based creativity, but if the majority of that creativity is tripe, then its not a positive.

I dont see how GW rules are more catered to this approach than PPs, and its got nothing to do with GW having a dodgier rules set - PaddyAlexander has built several unique boards, and has run plenty games with unique set ups and special rules in his many games of warmachine against me. i remember one in particular where we were fighting over a multi-level board which was quite fun. the quality of the rules of the parent company has nothing to do with the creativity of the players. vague, implied rules do not give me "more permission" to make my own things. And as pointed out, several fan made formats in PP games were taken up by the parent company, and made official. several unofficial events (eg foodmachine games, etc) are regarded highly, and pop up on most people's calendars.

[Wishing]

and of all those home made army books, codexes and supplements, how many of them are any good? To me, you can be as creative as you want, but whats the point if you cant take it anywhere? all it leads to is frustration, and a fractured community. with all due respect, you can go on and on about the sandbox nature of this home-based creativity, but if the majority of that creativity is tripe, then its not a positive.

If you don't see it and don't agree, then I doubt there's much I can say to convince you. To me, it's not about whether those homebrew rules are any good or not, it's about the fun and creativity that goes into writing them. You don't care about homebrew because you think it's tripe and you can't take it anywhere, which is a good indication that you are happier with the PP mentality and that is where you should be. Which is fine - but the things that you don't care about, there are other people that do care about, hence why it's good that there are different game systems that cater to different tastes.

[Wishing]

Stupid double posts.

[Deadnight]

If you don't see it and don't agree, then I doubt there's much I can say to convince you. To me, it's not about whether those homebrew rules are any good or not, it's about the fun and creativity that goes into writing them. You don't care about homebrew because you think it's tripe and you can't take it anywhere, which is a good indication that you are happier with the PP mentality and that is where you should be. Which is fine - but the things that you don't care about, there are other people that do care about, hence why it's good that there are different game systems that cater to different tastes.

what "PP mentality"?

House rules? Indeed. I dont care about them all that much. that said, thats not my issue here. Again, you are insisting on this notion that somehow PP as a company, and warmachine gamers dont want to make their own stuff and that GW players are "moar creative". you even call it "the PP mentality". and that is flat out wrong. As i and others have pointed out, the PP player community as a whole has been, and is extremely innovative and creative in what they do.

[Ponge]

what "PP mentality"?

House rules? Indeed. I dont care about them all that much. that said, thats not my issue here. Again, you are insisting on this notion that somehow PP as a company, and warmachine gamers dont want to make their own stuff and that GW players are "moar creative". you even call it "the PP mentality". and that is flat out wrong. As i and others have pointed out, the PP player community as a whole has been, and is extremely innovative and creative in what they do.

This is a topic where we get asked OUR opinion and you seem to jump on everyone that doesn't agree with the way you see PP or their game systems.
These are personal reasons, no one is trying to condemn PP...
You obviously seem to dislike GW and are a huge fan of PP but that doesn't mean everyone is.

[Deadnight]

This is a topic where we get asked OUR opinion and you seem to jump on everyone that doesn't agree with the way you see PP or their game systems.
These are personal reasons, no one is trying to condemn PP...
You obviously seem to dislike GW and are a huge fan of PP but that doesn't mean everyone is.

you'd be surprised mate. i've played GW games for close on 10years. i love my tau, love my painting, and until the recent GK, and Necron codices, loved the fluff, especially the Imperial Armours. before then though, i've been hugely impressed with the material released for 5th edition. While i mainly play warmachine and infinity now, i still mainly use GW paints and GW bitz for all my conversions, and simply put, im used to GW paints, and GW plastic sprues simply have more options for great conversions. Oddly enough, 40k has given me a fantastic hobby that i enjoy immemsely, and many great friends and memories. but that doesnt mean GW are immune to criticism. (Or PP for that matter... :P i seriously dislike the plastic. metal all the way!)

I've got no problems with someone having an opinion. you dont like skirmish games - you want "army level" ones instead? fair play. you want sci-fi, not steampunk? fair play. i dislike statements that i feel are objectively wrong, and i try and point that out-case in point, i find the implication that the "PP mentality" is less creative to be a bit on the insulting side, or as has been said in other places, that PP games are a haven for WAAC powergamers :P. heh, that one always makes me laugh.
Sometimes the "dislikes" stem from "not being used to", or "being different from". I try and explain, at least from my understandings the "why" things are the way they are, that "dislikes" might not actually be "dislikes" at the end of the day - i like to work "with" people. I love this hobby. Not warhammer. Not Warmachine. Wargaming. More people playing more games, and the hobby growing is simply better for us all. Honestly though, if i dislike something, i am more than open to someone telling me why im being shortsighted. If a new perspective helps me see something in a better light, then im the one who has gained something.

[Marshall_Wilhelm]

I have found this thread quite interesting.

I am somewhat surprised that some dudes are not interested in playing 'hard' so to speak, and do enjoy the camaraderie of a casual game.
But then my mind wonders, 'well if you just like pushing men around and rolling dice, why would you need to branch out from GW?'
GW already has an extensive range of minis and is the most widely available and played wargame that I know of, so why go elsewhere if socialising over the table top is really where you are and what you want from your TT time?

To me, PP actually looks professional from a rules and games expectation point of view - like a modern car maker should be. GW seems like it is still one of those British car makers whose wiring always plays up and whose car doors had to be touched up after hitting brick pillars in the factory because the doors had to be left open whilst drying, but this size car couldn't fit.

The 'they are happy with you to make up your own rules to suit yourself' also seems a bit amateurish to me. Imagine if you bought a car, and instead of an integrated fan system, with access to heating, and refrigerated air conditioning, they left a spot on the dash. "Well normally it doesn't get hot here in the UK, so we don't need cooling. On those 25ºC days in Summer, we wind down the windows. It works well enough. But if you wanted to, you could mount a 12V fan on that spot on the dash, you know, if you wanted to fill in the gap and tailor it to your own (gaming) cooling wants. Or you could put an after market refrigerated air conditioning unit, if you were feeling particularly zany."

Or, "We don't supply back seats, as we feel customers like the option to put in their own back seat. Some might like to put in a bar fridge, or maybe a mini spa bath, or a filing cabinet." etc. No I'm pretty sure people want a back seat.

For those so innovative, they take out the back seat as they wish [come up with their own rules]. Mentioning the few who like to have a dabble in DMing on the table-top as though the wants of the few match the wants of the many, seems unrealistic.

The shoe makers, such as Nike, do sell shoes that are plain white, with the idea that you can scribble on them with markers. But for 99% of the shoe buying community, they want a finished and untouched shoe. People don't want to customise things as a rule. Even something that is 'customisable' such as the apps for whatever iThingy you have, are all pre-made. Dudes are not writing some Java script for some "'celestial auspiciousness' app" desire they have. They 'individualise' it by buying/downloading something that is available to millions of other people.

So I guess you can already see some of my frustrations with GW. XD

Anyway, so what don't I like about PP that I have discovered with my new RoS and Gators armies?
Ummm, that they're metal. Metal is not for miniatures. It was. But now, is not. I understand the whys and wherefores of PP using metal, but really I look forwards to the day when they become professional in that regard, and switch to plastic for 'all' their stuff.

Also how uncustomisable the models are, even the multi-part kits. It took me quite a time to get my Myrmidons looking like they were not cooky-cutter looking, and they are posable!
Whilst I have customised a great many of my GW minis, I am completely happy not to do so with my PP ones. However, just because I have modellers fatigue and it suits me to have minimal conversions happening, doesn't mean that I should not have that option readily available to me.

In that regard, I feel PP sorely lags after GW in terms of material used [barring finecast, of course] and the posability and interchangability of the minis. I guess something that sort of covers that fault is that WM/H is on a smaller scale than 40K - which I actually like.

[Clarkson]

The thing i hate with Hormachine (warmahordes sounds ***** imho), is this entire thread so far... it started out as people saying what they dont like, what could change, what they feel could make it better.. and turned into a bitchfest because the Trollbloods couldnt leave well enough alone.

Im a 40k player 90% off the time, it was only a week ago i got into hordes properly.. AND IN MY FIRST MATCH, i was told my choice of Zaal's Immortal Horde, was the wrong one and that its crap, and that i chose wrong...

I chose Skorne because I liked the look of them.. and Zaal's tiered list because i like the idea of constructs lumbering up the field, flanked by elephants and decimating everything it touches...

I won the game because the guy underestimated what an ancestral guardian can do in CC.. and annihilated his caster..

but he was such a smug bastard that even after i won.. he was bitching that i cheated and that i plotted to deceive him. When it has a community where people lord it over others because they are better or been playing longer, is one that almost forced me to get rid of my army..

and ofc this is my two cents... if you dont like what i said.. sure you can tell me about your views.. just dont bitch at me because "im new" or "you dont understand" or that my army is crap.. its my army.. i dont say yours is crap..

[loveless]

Im a 40k player 90% off the time, it was only a week ago i got into hordes properly.. AND IN MY FIRST MATCH, i was told my choice of Zaal's Immortal Horde, was the wrong one and that its crap, and that i chose wrong...

I chose Skorne because I liked the look of them.. and Zaal's tiered list because i like the idea of constructs lumbering up the field, flanked by elephants and decimating everything it touches...

I like Zaal's Immortal Horde...though you need to run it at higher point values to get enough souls to power everything up, unless you're relying on Zaal alone to keep the AG's powered up.

I won the game because the guy underestimated what an ancestral guardian can do in CC.. and annihilated his caster..

Ha, good!

but he was such a smug bastard that even after i won.. he was bitching that i cheated and that i plotted to deceive him. When it has a community where people lord it over others because they are better or been playing longer, is one that almost forced me to get rid of my army..

and ofc this is my two cents... if you dont like what i said.. sure you can tell me about your views.. just dont bitch at me because "im new" or "you dont understand" or that my army is crap.. its my army.. i dont say yours is crap..

Sorry to hear that. I'm reminded of a player I knew once who was so invested in his idea of the superiority of Prime Kreoss that he effectively scowled down at you if you doubted him or found a way around his knockdown feat (I seem to recall him mentioning that things immune to knockdown were "broken"). You sigh and move on - it's all you can do.

I've seen cocky Space Wolf players (soundly beaten by Black Templars, which managed to shut them up), cocky Eldar players (who declared my Sisters of Battle broken after they lost to them in 4th edition), and even cocky Wood Elf players who underestimated the power of a War Altar and Steam Tank (okay...that one may have been a bit mean of me ).

It happens in every game - try not to let it ruin your fun (though I know that can be tough!).

[Clarkson]

I like Zaal's Immortal Horde...though you need to run it at higher point values to get enough souls to power everything up, unless you're relying on Zaal alone to keep the AG's powered up.

I'm going to run a Shaman to help him out in bigger games... the AG was boosted with tokens he had and ancestral rage feat of zaal... so i just kept hitting him till he died..

I know there are ******** in every gaming system, its just it seems every Hormachine player i've met, that arent freinds of mine, are soo full of themselves and their armies.. that playing with them diminishes the enjoyment.

I dont know the name of the caster i killed, i just knew he had Khador... he used a gun carrage as defense.. so i flanked him with the AG..

[Havock]

Inventing your own **** is just as possible and 'legal' in PP as it is in GW.

PP is more easy to unbalance, however.

"Yeah, he has high DEF, FOCUS 8, PS14 and the following spells:
[Iron Flesh]
[Defender's Ward]
[Parasite]
[Signs & portents]"

There are some -rumours- however that there will be a new roleplay-thingy with tie-ins to the tabletop game. Make of that what you want.

[paddyalexander]

There are some -rumours- however that there will be a new roleplay-thingy with tie-ins to the tabletop game. Make of that what you want.

Which we have a lot of solid information on thanks to the two previous No Quarter magazines.

[Keravin]

And it comes out at Gen Con

[loveless]

Inventing your own **** is just as possible and 'legal' in PP as it is in GW.

PP is more easy to unbalance, however.

"Yeah, he has high DEF, FOCUS 8, PS14 and the following spells:
[Iron Flesh]
[Defender's Ward]
[Parasite]
[Signs & portents]"

Don't forget his 7 Warjack Points

Honestly, the lack of custom characters is one of the things I like about Warmachine/Hordes. You put customization into a game played competitively and you end up with the ravening internet hordes developing the optimum combination and decrying the use of anything else.

Additionally, the storyline is very character-driven. In my opinion, this makes for better writing than much of the hum-drum background in, say, a GW game. Reading about a confrontation between Baldur and Lylyth is more entertaining for me than a grudge match between Captain [Male Name]ius of the [Space-related Noun] [Animal Name] chapter of the Space Marines and Farseer [Random Letters] of Craftworld [Random Letters] and his pack of [Active Adjective] [Animal/Mythical Creature] Aspect Warriors. That's just me, though

[Charistoph]

Inventing your own **** is just as possible and 'legal' in PP as it is in GW.

PP is more easy to unbalance, however.

"Yeah, he has high DEF, FOCUS 8, PS14 and the following spells:
[Iron Flesh]
[Defender's Ward]
[Parasite]
[Signs & portents]"

There are some -rumours- however that there will be a new roleplay-thingy with tie-ins to the tabletop game. Make of that what you want.

True, true. My own point from this comes from my own entry into table top war gaming, which was Battletech, and the hobby, which was 40K, where in both cases you were encouraged to build your own model/unit/force within certain price ranges and rules and pre-made stuff was frowned on for one reason or another.

Heck, I asked on the PP Trollblood forum how they would react if I replaced the Bomber's kegs (which looks stuoid in my eyes) of powder with a pyg-crewed bazooka (Farrow Razorback) on its back. Instead of helpful hints and suggestions, I received vitriol and rejection. The only hepful suggestion I received was to put 2 bazookas on its back to help seperate it and make it look cooler. Everyone else would have dropped the game faster than if I was running Fantasy Daemons with every special character I could fit in. At least my LGS thought it was a cool idea.

So, yeah, you CAN make stuff up, but the spirit of creativity is severely dumbed down here.

[DeeKay]

@Charistoph: Your user name on the PP boards isn't elkap by any chance is it? If it is, I've read your thread on the PP forums. Call me crazy but I failed to see the vitriol in any of the thread's posts. As I read it, they were simply answers to your question that you didn't expect to receive.

Yes, PP's conversion rules may seem strict but the truth is that models in this game just happen to be rather nice looking game counters, just as they are in any tabletop wargame. The models in question must exactly represent what is being fielded at the time in order to avoid in-game confusion, something PP seems to take seriously.

It will be interesting to see what this whole IK tie-in will be like. I remember when they introduced Vinter and Leto from the RPG as scenario characters for Mk1. If it allows for anything like those guys, it could be fun if not legal for tourney play.

With regards,
Dan.

[Dyrnwyn]

No, his username is the same there as here. His thread can be found here. That said, I don't see much vitriol there. Yes, some people told you that the conversion wouldn't be legal. They also said that most TO's or PG's would be fine with it, as it was obvious what it was. It's just that you do need approval of a PG or TO to use the model in tournaments. If you're just playing casual games, then who cares? We have several conversions of PP models locally - I have a Sentinel that I've converted out of a Talon and an old Mechwarrior Dark Age rotary autocannon. It's silhouette is smaller and different than the official Sentinel. It's also painfully obvious that it IS a Sentinel. The local TO's and PG's are all fine with it - and it's also an illegal conversion because I used the Talon as a base. http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/1527/sentinels1.jpg


Seriously, do what you like, you'll only have to worry if you got to a big convention and play against a competitive jackass who will try to get you DQ'd on technicalities. And that's why the people in your thread warned you that you might want to keep an unconverted on on hand, just in case. Me, I'd be fine with the double-bazooka bomber - though I would prefer it if it was visually distinct from a Blitzer - Two barrels, a barrel over each shoulder, use the Bomber as a base rather than the Blitzer for the pose.

[Keravin]

I'm currently looking at converting Rocinante from a metal mule body with metal nomad shoulder pad and plastic bits. Legal under the definition of the rules - no, but it'll be clearly Rocinante and that's why the conversion rules give TOs the final say.

[Deadnight]

True, true. My own point from this comes from my own entry into table top war gaming, which was Battletech, and the hobby, which was 40K, where in both cases you were encouraged to build your own model/unit/force within certain price ranges and rules and pre-made stuff was frowned on for one reason or another.

Heck, I asked on the PP Trollblood forum how they would react if I replaced the Bomber's kegs (which looks stuoid in my eyes) of powder with a pyg-crewed bazooka (Farrow Razorback) on its back. Instead of helpful hints and suggestions, I received vitriol and rejection. The only hepful suggestion I received was to put 2 bazookas on its back to help seperate it and make it look cooler. Everyone else would have dropped the game faster than if I was running Fantasy Daemons with every special character I could fit in. At least my LGS thought it was a cool idea.

So, yeah, you CAN make stuff up, but the spirit of creativity is severely dumbed down here.

And yet most people (a) liked the idea, (b) but didnt think it was technically legal although (c) asking your local PG should get it sorted. I didnt see much vitriol there. there is a difference between "legally, that might be a bit dodgy", and "STFU noob lol shut ur stupid mouthhole gtfo". virtriol seems to suggest a lot more venom than what i saw. And in fairness, they did offer helpful hints and suggestions, just apparently not the ones you were looking for. For what its worth though CHaristoph, i've had no issues with my conversions - im building "that" E-Butcher 50pt army with 8 squads of doom reavers at the very least Im up to 5 already. And i make each squad distinct. I've got 2 squads with axes converted from GW bestigor bitz (its like for like, as doom reavers are specified as "fellblades", and last time i checked, axes were bladed weapons) and i've never had anything even close to resembling an issue from an opponent or a TO. I've also asked for advice regarding an all-female squad of doom reavers on the PP forum. the thread is probably well buried, but i got a fair bit of useful advice and tips.

Interestingly GeeDub seem to be tightening up on their previously "loose" stand on things - iirc i recently came across a quote attributed to GW stating that basically, if they produced a model for something, you needed to be using that in their tournaments. I dunno where that will lead though.