What is it about Warmachine/Hordes that you don't like?

[Clarkson]

Interestingly GeeDub seem to be tightening up on their previously "loose" stand on things - iirc i recently came across a quote attributed to GW stating that basically, if they produced a model for something, you needed to be using that in their tournaments. I dunno where that will lead though.

off topic, but the rules are still 90% gw parts, and with wargear represented.. unless there is a theme that explains why they arent modeled correctly...

my friend has a purifier 1ksons squad with fire coming out their hands to show psychic attacks of the pre-heresy faction i forgot the name of... he's been to amny a tournee with them.. all fine.

the thing i have noticed with the PP forums is you cant be as open as you can be on here... you try to voice an opinion that doesnt shine agood light on pp stuff, they will gut you alive

i posted a question about gap filling earlier today on my rhinodon... old full metal model.. asked if there was alternative to GS and LGS, as £2.30 is too much for LGS and i dont have a way to pay online for cheap GS... i has 30replies in as many a minute of pure hatred.. so much so the mods closed the thread down and warned me, not them, to not start a flame war..

so earlier advice that that one guy was an one off.. well make that 30+ douches for hormachine

[Dyrnwyn]

That rule used to be 50% GW parts. So yeah, if it went to 90% then it has been tightened. Interestingly, while it was tightened, it may be relaxed soon, as I heard GW has ended all official tournaments. With no official tournaments, there's no longer an official reason to use GW models.

What? Why would there be vitriol in a thread about green stuff? PP doesn't even sell it. Can you link to the thread? I tried searching for it but didn't find it like I did the other thread. Hormachine sounds mildly insulting to me - hence why most use Warmahordes.

EDIT: Didn't see a closed thread in the past day in either the Skorne or the Modeling and Painting section. Was your thread so bad it merited deletion rather than closing?

[HRM]

Interestingly GeeDub seem to be tightening up on their previously "loose" stand on things - iirc i recently came across a quote attributed to GW stating that basically, if they produced a model for something, you needed to be using that in their tournaments. I dunno where that will lead though.

I've always followed this rule, personally, but I've always had more money than brains. Doesn't much matter as I'm even LESS likely to go to Gee-Dub tourney than a WM/H one.

[Clarkson]

That rule used to be 50% GW parts. So yeah, if it went to 90% then it has been tightened. Interestingly, while it was tightened, it may be relaxed soon, as I heard GW has ended all official tournaments. With no official tournaments, there's no longer an official reason to use GW models.

What? Why would there be vitriol in a thread about green stuff? PP doesn't even sell it. Can you link to the thread? I tried searching for it but didn't find it like I did the other thread. Hormachine sounds mildly insulting to me - hence why most use Warmahordes.

EDIT: Didn't see a closed thread in the past day in either the Skorne or the Modeling and Painting section. Was your thread so bad it merited deletion rather than closing?

I went looking for it myself to link it.. looks like it was deleted.. and i got an official warning for flaming.. and a one week ban.. so im pissed off greatly by PP atm. the scores of abuse was about how i was implying that all the models have great amounts of "gaps and holes and stuff"..

apparently thats old news... its odd.. i was asking for help and i get the fallout.. why do i even bother?


and its been 90% in uk for maybe 3-4years.. well at least as long as i have been active again..

[Dyrnwyn]

I went looking for it myself to link it.. looks like it was deleted.. and i got an official warning for flaming.. and a one week ban.. so im pissed off greatly by PP atm. the scores of abuse was about how i was implying that all the models have great amounts of "gaps and holes and stuff"..

apparently thats old news... its odd.. i was asking for help and i get the fallout.. why do i even bother?

Well, I can't say one way or the other without having seen your post and it's responses, but just looking at what what you've posted here - you don't use capitalization, you use the somewhat derogatory sounding 'Hormachine' rather than the common appellate of Warmahordes, and your post apparently criticized the models. You may or may not have compared them to GW models. All of that taken together - your post may have been taken by some to be trolling and flamebait. If you were agressive in your responses, that may have contributed to that image and led to your warning and ban. You might not have intended it to be read that way, but there's no tone on the internet.

and its been 90% in uk for maybe 3-4years.. well at least as long as i have been active again..

I've played 40k since 2003 - in 4th ed, it was a 50% GW parts guideline. I didn't hear anything about a change, but apparently it did sometime in 5th.

[Clarkson]

Well, I can't say one way or the other without having seen your post and it's responses, but just looking at what what you've posted here - you don't use capitalization, you use the somewhat derogatory sounding 'Hormachine' rather than the common appellate of Warmahordes, and your post apparently criticized the models. You may or may not have compared them to GW models. All of that taken together - your post may have been taken by some to be trolling and flamebait. If you were agressive in your responses, that may have contributed to that image and led to your warning and ban. You might not have intended it to be read that way, but there's no tone on the internet.

I don't use capitalisation, as most of the time its stupidly late at night and my brain is functioning at 1/4speed, or i'm typing too fast to realize that I am making a mistake, and I dont look at the screen as i type.. so if I make a huge mistake, I will go back to fix punctuation usually as an edit. otherwise i'm too lazy to do it.

I've only ever called it Hormachine on here.. and in this thread. you only have my word for this.. but i have no reason to lie on the internet.. i been on it too long to know that using it on official website, just opens me to abuse.

I never mentioned gw outside that paying £2.30 for a 12ml bottle of poly filler is too much. It may have been phrased oddly (my entire post), but not like "this model is **** and full of holes what a crappy company gw is better" that would warrant the abuse i recieved.

I never got the chance to reply, as when i returned to the site an hour later to see if any updates.. i tried to log in.. got a message saying i was banned.. I created a new acct to see what the problem is.. saw that the thread was closed after getting 32 replies.. first 2-3 was genuinely helpful.. if by helpful you mean.. "you really are too lazy if you havent got a means to pay online" or that i was too cheap for not wanting to spend over £2 for a poly filler for something 12/15ml. it descended into hate of me implying the models are bad.

I literally asked it along the lines of "I'm looking for a Green Stuff alternative, to gap fill some models i have, for example the gaps around the backplate of the rhinodon. reason being is i dont feel like lining the pockets of gw by spending £4 for the fraction of the amount of GS that i can get online, or even the £2.30 for the 12ml of . Unfortunately, i dont have a way to get some atm. so im looking for alternate products to fill gaps that i may find across the board"

i am paraphrasing from memory there, but im sure i didnt insult PP, or really imply that its models are sub par. and if i was going to compare them to gw.. i;d say pp is better... as im constantly filling gaps on models i buy, as they either dont fit well, or in the case of failcast.. fixing miscasts.

[Deadnight]

I don't use capitalisation, as most of the time its stupidly late at night and my brain is functioning at 1/4speed, or i'm typing too fast to realize that I am making a mistake, and I dont look at the screen as i type.. so if I make a huge mistake, I will go back to fix punctuation usually as an edit. otherwise i'm too lazy to do it.

I've only ever called it Hormachine on here.. and in this thread. you only have my word for this.. but i have no reason to lie on the internet.. i been on it too long to know that using it on official website, just opens me to abuse.

I never mentioned gw outside that paying £2.30 for a 12ml bottle of poly filler is too much. It may have been phrased oddly (my entire post), but not like "this model is **** and full of holes what a crappy company gw is better" that would warrant the abuse i recieved.

I never got the chance to reply, as when i returned to the site an hour later to see if any updates.. i tried to log in.. got a message saying i was banned.. I created a new acct to see what the problem is.. saw that the thread was closed after getting 32 replies.. first 2-3 was genuinely helpful.. if by helpful you mean.. "you really are too lazy if you havent got a means to pay online" or that i was too cheap for not wanting to spend over £2 for a poly filler for something 12/15ml. it descended into hate of me implying the models are bad.

I literally asked it along the lines of "I'm looking for a Green Stuff alternative, to gap fill some models i have, for example the gaps around the backplate of the rhinodon. reason being is i dont feel like lining the pockets of gw by spending £4 for the fraction of the amount of GS that i can get online, or even the £2.30 for the 12ml of . Unfortunately, i dont have a way to get some atm. so im looking for alternate products to fill gaps that i may find across the board"

i am paraphrasing from memory there, but im sure i didnt insult PP, or really imply that its models are sub par. and if i was going to compare them to gw.. i;d say pp is better... as im constantly filling gaps on models i buy, as they either dont fit well, or in the case of failcast.. fixing miscasts.

out of curiosity, did you contact the mods regarding your banning? seems a bit unfair and over the top on their part. IMO, the thread got closed not so much for your post (and btw, i havent read it, but if it was as you paraphrased it, then its not all that bad) but for the responses.

Interestingly, i've noticed a few times on the PP boards that they crack down hard whenever there is severe anti-GW sentiment being bandied around. And by that, i dont mean the flamefests we'd see here or elsewhere. I've seen quite a number of threads closed after people start giving simple, honest opinions as to why (for example) they dont think GeeDub is a good company, or their games are bad. People werent flaming or getting irate or anything I think its probably just a forum policy not to be seen to be the "anti-GW protest bandwagon". its seems its mainly there for GW. GW tends to generate that "battered girlfriend" syndrome in its players so there can be negative sentiment directed to them, that other companies wouldnt get- I've never seen any threads closed for comments on Vallejo paints or things. PPS attitude, im guessing, os something along the lines of the forum being there for PP games. please note there is no "other games" subforum. if you're there, its probably a better idea to stick to company related topics.

[Havock]

GW's current (stricter) stance on conversions/scratchbuilds probably has something to do with the influx of 3rd party models/components and a certain lawsuit they lost.

[Wishing]

what "PP mentality"?

House rules? Indeed. I dont care about them all that much. that said, thats not my issue here. Again, you are insisting on this notion that somehow PP as a company, and warmachine gamers dont want to make their own stuff and that GW players are "moar creative". you even call it "the PP mentality". and that is flat out wrong. As i and others have pointed out, the PP player community as a whole has been, and is extremely innovative and creative in what they do.

You seem to be responding as though I am attacking PP and saying they are inferior in some way. I don't feel this way at all, I think the PP games are extremely awesome. What I have been pointing out here is that there are lots of differences in the mentality behind PP games ("the PP mentality") and the mentality behind GW games ("the GW mentality"). Why you take offense at me saying "the PP mentality" is beyond me.

I'm not saying that PP gamers are less creative than GW gamers. I'm saying that in my experience, this creativity manifests itself in different ways than with GW. PP players tend to not modify or replace the published PP rules very often when they are being creative. GW players do. Your stance is that this is because GW rules are crap and need replacing and PP rules aren't. While this is true to a large extent, my view is that making up and replacing rules is fun, so GW rules being as lax as they are isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you feel that PP players are much better than GW players at making up their own rules too, then more power to you. You just have different experiences than me then.

Inventing your own **** is just as possible and 'legal' in PP as it is in GW.

Of course. The point here is more about how positive and interested the communities in question feel about making up your own stuff. Opinions seem to vary on this point.

Honestly, the lack of custom characters is one of the things I like about Warmachine/Hordes.

Me too! It is extremely common for new players to come to the PP forums from warhammer, and the first thing they write is "I wish I could make up my own characters, how about customisable warcasters?" People usually only want this when they are new to the game. The whole foundation of the game is that it consists of exquisitely crafted pre-made elements that you put together with other elements to make your final list. Splitting these elements into their consituent particles and letting players put them back together themselves would make it a totally different game.

PP is not a sandbox, it is more like robo-lego. You take the pre-cast parts and put it together into something awesome.
GW is not robo-lego, it is like a sandbox. The parts are just a pile of dust, but you can make it into anything you can imagine.

[Deadnight]

You seem to be responding as though I am attacking PP and saying they are inferior in some way. I don't feel this way at all, I think the PP games are extremely awesome. What I have been pointing out here is that there are lots of differences in the mentality behind PP games ("the PP mentality") and the mentality behind GW games ("the GW mentality"). Why you take offense at me saying "the PP mentality" is beyond me.

Not at all! Not being narky, but to me, your posts previous to this seemed to be suggesting the attitude that PP gamers are less creative - thats what was riling me because i consider it to be objectively false. maybe the tone got lost in translation - it came across as though you were implying that the gw mentality was one of "be creative!", while the PP player menatlity was "dont be creative! theres no need to be!". i dont know, but it came across more than a little offensive (albeith unintentionally) to me.

I'm not saying that PP gamers are less creative than GW gamers. I'm saying that in my experience, this creativity manifests itself in different ways than with GW. PP players tend to not modify or replace the published PP rules very often when they are being creative. GW players do. Your stance is that this is because GW rules are crap and need replacing and PP rules aren't. While this is true to a large extent, my view is that making up and replacing rules is fun, so GW rules being as lax as they are isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you feel that PP players are much better than GW players at making up their own rules too, then more power to you. You just have different experiences than me then.
.

fair enough, but...

With all due respect, no, not really. Firstly, I've never once suggested that its because GW rules are crap- in fact, i've refuted it. Please go back and read my posts. Again, i've seen quite a few game formats that were fan made. My point was the quality of the rules has no bearing on the creativity of the players-that is all (so how can i say that, and then say its because GWs rules are supposedly crap? Hmm? ). Fair enough, maybe you havent seen the creativity of the community. But its there, and there is a lot of it I've seen fan-made UFC style cage match rules for WM. I've seen campaign rules for WM (official, and fan-made). I've seen unique scenarios created for WM. Ive seen home-brew units and casters. i've seen games that modify the very core of the game (no warcaster! no casterkill!). I've seen homemade rules that modify focus and fury (and they're typically as terrible as 90% of the homemade 40k rules!). the games or their quality of writing, are not the sandbox that inspires creativity. the players creativity is.

[Wishing]

Maybe I threw you in with a general set of responses about this topic, sorry if I ascribed an opinion to you that you didn't express. It's a complicated subject so expressing exactly what I mean is difficult.

Above, you state that it's the players' own creativity that inspires their creativity. That is a bit too circular for me - I think players are creative inherently, but the way they express their creativity is influenced by the medium in which in takes place, the medium here being the game system.

I guess the best way I can express what I mean is by personal example using conversions. In GW, my approach is extremely casual. I tend to stick with GW models and scratch-builds, but when I want to represent a model, I very rarely buy the official model of that from GW - I look around for bitz that I can use to assemble this thing I want to make, or I simply build it out of putty. My model will end up entirely unique, and I will have to tell everyone what it is, because there is no way for anyone to guess just by looking at it. See my Chaos army thread in my sig for examples. And I love it.

When I want to field a PP model, I don't do this. I always start with the official model, and then I pride myself in making it look as cool as I possibly can while still using the pieces from the original model as the base, since this is what the PP conversion guidelines recommend. I want the model to look like what it is - see my epic Kreoss model below as an example - but in my own vision. And I love it.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...EKreoss1-1.jpg

Why this different approach? Because I see GW and PP as different types of games that stimulate different parts of my gaming brain. What applies to conversions applies to rules too. In 40k, I write my own rules for everything. In PP, I don't write my own rules, I express my creativity through the armies I put together using the official rules instead. Just as satisfying, but in a different way.

[Jim Bowen]

The thing i hate with Hormachine (warmahordes sounds ***** imho), is this entire thread so far... it started out as people saying what they dont like, what could change, what they feel could make it better.. and turned into a bitchfest because the Trollbloods couldnt leave well enough alone.

Im a 40k player 90% off the time, it was only a week ago i got into hordes properly.. AND IN MY FIRST MATCH, i was told my choice of Zaal's Immortal Horde, was the wrong one and that its crap, and that i chose wrong...

I chose Skorne because I liked the look of them.. and Zaal's tiered list because i like the idea of constructs lumbering up the field, flanked by elephants and decimating everything it touches...

I won the game because the guy underestimated what an ancestral guardian can do in CC.. and annihilated his caster..

but he was such a smug bastard that even after i won.. he was bitching that i cheated and that i plotted to deceive him. When it has a community where people lord it over others because they are better or been playing longer, is one that almost forced me to get rid of my army..

and ofc this is my two cents... if you dont like what i said.. sure you can tell me about your views.. just dont bitch at me because "im new" or "you dont understand" or that my army is crap.. its my army.. i dont say yours is crap..

Well said this is what I avoided saying in my first post as I didn't want to enrage the true believers but your experience is exactly like mine. However I do know some really nice Warmachine players so they are not all bad.

[Emerett]

I wish your Caster dying wasn't always such an enormous deal.

I don't think a high ranking warrior dying should assume the battle is lost.

[paddyalexander]

I wish your Caster dying wasn't always such an enormous deal.

I don't think a high ranking warrior dying should assume the battle is lost.

The idea behind the game is that the battles on the tabletop represtent two or more of these very powerful Warcaster/Warlocks and their personal retinues fighting it out.

If you don't like using the caster kill win condition in your games then don't. Simple. There are rules in the books regarding what happens to the battlegroup when the caster dies so it will still have a significant impact on the game.

I've played games where it was scenario points only to win and casters were either not worth anything or worth a control point when killed.

Quite frankly I like the caster kill win condition. It means in a game where one side is crushing the other there is still always a risk of loosing or a chance to still acheive victory. It means that games aren't decided on turn 1 or 2 and then pulled out over another 2 turns of one bored player just removing models from the table. It keeps the game exciting untill the last dice roll.

[Wishing]

I like the caster kill thing too, it makes each game an exciting challenge with a clear objective, rather than a sluggish grindfest of slowly killing the entire opponent's army piece by piece. And even if you don't consider caster kill to end the game, the game tends to be a foregone conclusion once one side's caster is taken out, if the game was relatively even up till that point anyway.

[Tupinamba]

Although I appreciate the originality of the game and the competition for GW, Warmahordes are not my cup of tea.

My ideal is more on the line of historical + magic/monster spice, so I feel that Warmahordes actually exacerbate the things I don´t particularly like in Warhammer. It´s more skirmish, more character based, the minis are way over the top for me and the mechanics too much combo and synergy based, exactly the contrary to what I look for.

To each his own, just writing here for the OP to know what kind of gamers may not be interested in the system.

Cheers