As the tittle says, what is a good Competitive Eldar List?
I've heard it's mostly 3 units of Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents, and a bunch of Dire Avengers also in Wave Serpents, combined with a Jetbike Seer Counsil.
Is it really this 'spam', or does it include other stuff as well?
Define 'competitive' if you mean top-line competitive yes (which makes it no more spammy than most top level armies).
Spam really has nothing to do with the army, but game theory. Whatever the army there will be best units and worst units, and it's better to spam the best, to saturate some target types, and drought others, creating overload and inefficiencies in the opponents army.
Your Heavy slot will usually be Fire Prisms (must be 2+ of them fielded), occasionally Falcons, War Walkers or Wraithlords (again 2+ of all much preferred).
Mechdar is the goto default. Every unit in a skimmer hull, can be run with twin autarch for reserve denial lists, or with farseers if you are going to try and fight. Farseers normally in jetbike councils.
I play mixed-mech which I find performs better locally, but to be fair I probably wouldn't take to a top tournament. It still features 2x Jetlocks, 2x Dragons (the 3rd being optionally replaced with Banshees), DAVU Serpents, and Twin Prisms though...
Lastly there are various Footdar builds which I don't personally endorse. They tend to be variants of Guardian-rush, Wraithwall, or a Deathstar list with Farseer-led Wraithguard (the last two can be combined in the same army, but not necessarily so).
The real problem is that Wraithwall is too slow in the modern game, and any other list can't take 6 rounds of firing (Eldar Troops are particularly weak!), hence the best tactic is to do focussed attacks on priority targets, from skimmers, and then tank-shocking off objectives at the end. Hence Mechdar is the most successful top-level list. It's about Fire Dragons and Skimmers, and very little else. The Jetseer council is optional, but I advocate it - it's average against some lists, but devastates others.
On the other hand, if you mean something playable for a more casual local gaming circle then as with all codexes, you have far more choices, and many things are playable (albeit overcosted or underperforming).
Kelanen
Alright, so I take the 3 Squads of Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents, and what about Troops??
In this list, better take the Autarch or the Jetbike Counsil??
What points level are you aiming at, and what level of competitive?
Jetseer Councils are great, but expensive, and favour bigger games. Also it's worth saying (in common with other similar armies) that all-reserves denial doesn't make for a particularly fun game, even for you. If it's a tournament list fair enough, but if it's for more casual play, you'd probably have more fun with mixed-mech. The twin Autarch (both or none, although Yriel works well as one of them) is only for the reserve denial list. If you are playing any other list you'll find Eldrad or a Farseer to be far more generically useful - they are force multipliers. If you are going for a Bike council, then obviously it needs to be a normal Farseer.
2-3 units of Fire Dragons is mandatory. The last unit can be replaced with Banshees, there's pro's and cons of both. Banshees *must* be 10 man with executioner exarch though. Fire Dragons scale better from 2x 5-6 man units without exarch in smaller games to 3x 10 with exarchs in bigger games. It's worth noting that both Dragons and Banshees *must* have a dedicated Serpent. Scorpions however gain very little from one, and Harliquins are better on foot with a Shadowseer - these units are thus only used in mixed or foot lists (I wouldn't advocate them in hybrid, but they serve useful purposes in an all/mainly foot list).
As to Troops, you have some hard choices. The best options of a bad lot are as follows:
DAVU: 5x Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent. They never get out, never fire, and you are just paying 60pts to make your Serpent Score.
Dire Avengers: A full unit with Bladestorm exarch (possibly Defend). A Serpent greatly preferred, but not an absolute. The problem being they are flimsy without a Serpent, and the total cost with a Serpent makes them underwhelming.
Rangers/Pathfinders: Great against MC's and non-3+ Terminators. Reasonable against MEQ. They are very static (typically camping a home objective) and thus only work with other nearby units to support them from an assault, and so they are not marooned alone. This precludes their use in Mechdar, but I find them very valuable in other lists.
Guardian Jetbikes: Be under no illusions that they will accomplish anything. Reserve them and keep them off the field as long as possible, and they are good for a fast moving unit to grab objectives under flat-out cover.
Wraithguard: A tough unit (but not as tough as the points would indicate, and complete fail against DE), with great damage potential, but short range (and lousy in CC).
Edit: Also Storm Guardians with 2x flamer, and Destructor Warlock in Serpent. I'm not a fan, but if you see hordes it's good.
If you are going for a full mech list then only Dire Avengers in Serpents or Jetbikes are viable. Other lists have the other options. The problem is your cheap options do nothing, and your expensive options do stuff worth about half their points. Typically one runs minimal troops, and relies on the Heavy Support and Elites (and optionally Seer Councils) to do all the heavy lifting.
Last edited by Kelanen; 06-02-2012 at 01:20.
Kelanen
I have to admit to liking the horribly expensive death star of 10 wraithguard, a farseer for fortune, a warlock with conceal (though if you can make sure you're going to be in cover you dont need this but I think it's a must so you can move where you like) and Kandras (gives the unit stealth to make them have a 3++ in cover or 4++ outside of cover comboed with conceal). He also gives the unit a bit of a punch in close combat which they lack otherwise.
CosmicGirl has had success with a similar unit winning a State Championship. It's a very solid unit, but putting all your eggs in one basket - it takes a huge number of points.
Even with Runes of Warding, twin-lash will keep you from doing anything all battle, whilst their army fights half of yours. Any army capable of feeding it tarpits (infantry heavy IG for example) or with good mobility will be a nightmare for it.
Kelanen
I keep seeing this Karandras "stealth" issue come up in different topics. I'm not blaming you for it but...Originally Posted by koran
Karandras cannot confer stealth to squads other than striking scorpions.
It states in the eldar codex in his profile that he confers stealth "to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins."
Also I'm really enjoying this no-frills breakdown of eldar units for competitive games, though I have not participated in any tournaments myself only having played with friends.
There's a reason you keep seeing this, and put bluntly it's because you are wrong...
You were absolutely right in 4th, but this is very much a 5th ed exploit. Karandas' rules only confers Stealth to Scorpions, this much is true - it's also irrelevant. In 5th ANY IC with Stealth that joins a unit, grants the effect to whole unit (Stealth USR is written as affecting the unit, not character BRB p76, so the members don't need to have it conferred on them individually).
This is a very well known ruling - it's how Telion Stealth's a unit of Scouts for free and saves on camo cloaks for example, or how a Lord Commissar with camo-cloak Stealths and entire blob squad of 40 or so men...
Last edited by Kelanen; 06-02-2012 at 01:23.
Kelanen
alright, just bought my first Fire Dragon box today. Not entirely sure about starting Eldar (just like some models), as I've got a SM army and a GK army lying around here
What's the best/most optimal loadout for a Wave Serpent?
I'm sorry for dragging this off-topic.
Ok fair enough I looked up the latest FAQ for the rulebook and saw that not every model needed it in a unit for it to benefit the whole unit (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...nuary_2012.pdf)
It was only a FAQ though, not a errata, and not a amendment.
The USR is irrelevant because the codex rule takes precedence.
In the Eldar codex it specifically says that Karandras can only give it to Striking Scorpions.
On page 74 of the BRB it states "if any of the Codexes include one of these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence"
On page 48 of the BRB it states "the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."
I read the Eldar errata and FAQ and there is nothing that changes Karandras stealth rule or how it is applied because the codex entry takes precedence.
Now I know nothing about Telion, from what your telling me I believe his rule is different from Karandras' but I don't own a space marine codex so I have to assume that.
But I do know after looking at the FAQ rulings, the Eldar Codex, and reading the rule book I have to come to the conclusion that there is nothing to support Karandras giving wraithguard stealth or any other unit stealth.
O my god I feel so stupid, it finally clicked in my head Kelanan.
Although he doesn't give the unit stealth....because he HAS stealth any would squad benefit from his stealth.
I was so caught up with all the other rules the significance of what the FAQ said didn't sink into my head until I sat down and worked out all of the logic.
I'm sorry about this, I finally understand it though, even though I had to think through it for half a hour.
Thank you!
Absolutely spot on. That was what I was trying to differentiate in my answer.
To be clear, if a made-up psychic power targeted the unit and inflicted a wound on every model with Stealth, then it would only hit Karandas. He's the only model with Stealth (whereas if he joined Scorpions, they'd all have it). But if the question is "who has a 6+ cover save" then it would be the whole unit, whatever that unit is.
Whilst codex certainly does trump conflicting BRB info, this isn't a conflict - it just looks like one until you parse the sentences very carefully. Karandas' prohibition stands, and it doesn't matter - the unit gets all the practical benefits of Stealth anyway.
Kelanen
It it helps I have had a VERY long game where my opponent refused to accept it with the FAQ infront of him as well as me and two judges telling him clearly that it was correct... That was tiresome
It all boils down to the BRB Stealth USR - it's quite explicit that a model with Stealth, grants the UNIT a cover save. That sentence is the whole of it, and whilst people may not like it from a fluff perspective (although equally I've heard defences) it is very clear RAW.It it helps I have had a VERY long game where my opponent refused to accept it with the FAQ infront of him as well as me and two judges telling him clearly that it was correct... That was tiresome
However if the head judge told him it so, then it's so, even if it's wrong. At that point you accept it gracefully, and move on, even if you're positive they are wrong. If you're not prepared to do that (and accept occasional human error), you don't play competitively.
Kelanen
From a fluff perspective it succeeds and fails based on whether stealth is granted by natural skill or by wargear. cammo cloak commissar makes little sense as that one cammo cloak wont protect the entire unit. Naturally stealthy tellion has an easier time telling his scouts to go hide over there though.
Playing against eldar recently, the impression i get is that you can pack in enough scatter lasers to deal with av 12 or less that you don't need to go too overboard with the fire dragons, but deff take two. they're too short ranged to take one and expect success as they'd be easily countered.
And you people complain about Chaos space wolf proxies
Dragons are there against AV14, not 12 (and also are good anti-MEQ).
If you mostly see 12 and lower then you field a S6-spam army. Something Eldar do very well, but if that's the order of the day then Eldar aren't the best army to be taking in all honesty.
Kelanen
Warwalkers with scater lasers and shurikan cannons + a farseer with doom and guild was always fun to use
Don't care what your armour save is with that many hit and wounds it's going to hurt
http://www.badwargamers.co.uk/
Is IA 11 material available at most of your games? The new things introduced there certainly shake the eldar balance a bit, especially in the FA section where WASP walkers and hornets come in.
Here they are yes. My experience is that in the UK IA and FW stuff is generally welcomed, but my impression is it's more 50/50 in the US, where FW stuff is much rarer. I'm really not sure about the rest of Europe though...
Hornets are good. They are not amazing, but given the rest of our FA is pretty unplayable, they are a great option.
WASP's are stupidly good. Did they get a nerf in IA11? I only have the FW site rules, they aren't in IAA(2nd) and IAA2 which are my recent FW manuals...
Kelanen
Craftworld Wasps are slightly more expensive than regular walkers (by about a third), with roughly the same profile: the difference is that they are moving as jetpacks (with a pseudo-turboboost or JSJ), trade scout for deepstrike and come in the FA slot. Considering that it's not traditionally a strong slot for eldar, they are quite solid.
I still favour hornets over wasps though. Intentionally or not, they are BS 4 for craftworlders (as for corsairs), have higher armour (11/11/10), can scout or outflank, and may fire all guns if cruising - to me, that is amazing for those points. When a vehicle can put out firepower roughly equivalent to a ravager, with similar mobility and for similar points in the FA slot, we have something good. They aren't vendettas, but, well, these are vendettas we are talking about. Hornets can be useful in most any list, but can be decidedly nasty in a reserve strategy, where they can appear from any nearly any table edge and put up a lot of S6 or S8 shots in side and rear armor.
Last edited by Shamana; 15-02-2012 at 23:05.
Yes they did then - they were originally Troops. As FA, they are reasonable.
Yes Hornets are very solid. The BS4 is I'm sure deliberate - they were originally BS3 until the AI printing, and they got 10pts cheaper there too. It's the old Xeno codexes that have bad FA - thankfully GW has been beefing it up - Vendettas, Banewolves, Baal Predators, etc are all well above the Land Speeder baseline (which is quite playable, and far better than anything Eldar have). For Necron armies HQ and FA are the uber slots, and everything else fits around...
Kelanen
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
