<< Dark Mechanicus >>

[IncubiLord]

BAH! Let's argue now!

I just want to see what Puffin is writing up.
He's been in the thread each time I've checked back lately, but no word. That's got to be a big post!

well i was thinking on this and looking at the hull designs... Each hull type then has its own list of weapons options therefore you can easily prevent chimera-of-doom syndrome.

Full-fledged predators that carry 10 men then?
Russes with 4 Railguns (or equivalents)?
Battlecannon Rhinos?

So are you going towards a weapon rating system, between Primary and Secondary?

[Puffin Magician]

FoU and I were arguing over how one prevents the 4-Assault-Cannon, Supercharged-Engines-so-it's-FAST Uber-Chimera.

Ah, okay... like that you mean. My idea would be something like this:

A tank Chassis [Rhino/Chim/Russ/etc] can have a maximum of 1 Primary Weapon; s7 or higher. Additionally, it can have up to 2 Secondary Weapons [s6 and lower] on sponsons or similar mounts. They have the same stats as their "parent" Codex, so none of these vehicles are Fast or Skimmers or any of that.

That's where the normalcy ends... vehicles may be upgraded [again depending on Crafts] to carry Xenos weaponry, Biological weapons, or experimental/warp weapons. For armour reductions and a points increase, it can be upgraded to a Skimmer but is still a Normal Vehicle [12" max moves].

If one desires, additional weapons could be added - for a price. Armour Reductions [-2 to Front, -1 to Sides] for additional Secondary Weapons, and Armour Reductions as well as speed restrictions [6" max move, no Skimmer upgrade] for additional Primary Weapons [max of +1 perhaps?]. Or, one can choose to have a "powerplant stress" roll every turn rather than an armour downgrade, where the weapons may cease to work for that turn, explode and destroy themselves, or feedback and annihilate the vehicle.

Just a very loose & quick example that I think this keeps with the [very flexible and wonderful] theme that you suggested for "random" vehicles, IncubiLord. Open to interpretations, tweaks and opinions of course.

Below are some quick MSPaints of vehicles I mentioned earlier.

[x-esiv-4c]

Hey guys, sorry I've been out of it for a while. Thesis work to catch up on.

Firstly, thanks for the consolidation FoU, good work.

Now, I was wondering, what if we introduced units that have multiple structure points? I know things like baneblades are 3 and titans are 3 ( I think ) but what about having a 0-1 HS slot that is perhaps 2 structure points, something customizable. Most armies have a unit that the army is based around and tends to be a bit of a point sink. For chaos, they have the Daemon prince, Daemonhunters have inquisitor retinues. What if we have some kind of tank / knight that the DM use as a central unit if they wish to?

Good concept pictures Puffin Magician, just what we need.

[Flame of Udun]

Firstly, thanks for the consolidation FoU, good work.

I am but a servant of the Omnissiah

Full-fledged predators that carry 10 men then?
Russes with 4 Railguns (or equivalents)?
Battlecannon Rhinos?
So are you going towards a weapon rating system, between Primary and Secondary?

Ok I concede for the moment that my suggested system is at the moment unworkable. Lets just say you can take any current imperial tank. Certain tanks should be allowed certain special weapons upgrades i.e. A Basilisk/Griffon/medusa or Bombard can replace their main gun with a Kai launcher for x number of points. Tanks like chimera and russ couldn't take a kai launcher as it's a piece of artillery that requires a specially modified chassis like that of the Basalisk or Bombard.
How does that sound?

@Puffin Magician: Nice pics chap but the look of the tanks really don't float my boat. They just look too present day, apart from the one with the crystal on top, and not quite esoterically mechanicus for my tastes.
I like the concepts for the Ferron, Fusilier and Cataclysm but not the other two. I think the Cataclysm's crystal cannon could do with a tweak (perhaps just get rid of the defensive mode) but otherwise they are pretty good. Personally I'd mount the Crystal cannon on a Russ hull Like the Executioner.

Also I think we need some droids,tanks are nice but we cant forget about those rogue Ad Mech who have been a part of the Legio Cybernetica.

[IncubiLord]

Lets just say you can take any current imperial tank. Certain tanks should be allowed certain special weapons upgrades...
How does that sound?

We can run with that until we actually get what we're looking for figured out. I want to see something that's a step toward the VDR from the standard vehicles, but we haven't found a way to do that that everybody likes - yet.

I think we should let this area of debate rest until somebody thinks they've got it.

Also I think we need some droids,tanks are nice but we cant for get about those rogue Ad Mech who have been a part of the Legio Cybernetica.

AV 9/9/9 walkers.

They'd be pretty tough against basic weaponry, but crumble under heavy weapons fire - fitting, no?

[crashbang]

QUOTE: incubi lord
On the Hydralisk:
I picture something like a Dreadnought with the claws, and a set of machine-snakes attached to its back.


Fantastic idea! i was thinkin of basically a robot hydra, but urs really makes it sound cool. ill try that way

On the custom vehicles- i dont think itll be too bad as long as certain restrictions are in place. transports for example, could get restricted big weapons and be more expensive, but have more fasty protect stuff, while the tank could have more access to heavy weapons but be slower and more liable to be picked off by heavy weapons. i will say some things tho.

1)NO ASSAULT CANNONS! they will get spammed...please?
2)have some misfire charts or something, that'd be cool
3)Try and reduce the amount of powerful ordanance they can take, 0-2 or something

generally in the interest of balance really.

[x-esiv-4c]

How about going with something like the blood-frenzy that chaos dreds suffer from? That would make them less reliable but still be able to pack a punch.

[x-esiv-4c]

http://www.specialist-games.com/asse...mechanicus.pdf

[Flame of Udun]

We can run with that until we actually get what we're looking for figured out. I want to see something that's a step toward the VDR from the standard vehicles, but we haven't found a way to do that that everybody likes - yet.

I think we should let this area of debate rest until somebody thinks they've got it.

Sounds good to me

AV 9/9/9 walkers.
They'd be pretty tough against basic weaponry, but crumble under heavy weapons fire - fitting, no?

Hmmm, I'd feel more inclined to say Av10/10/9 that way they aren't as hardcore as a dread but can take a wee bit more punishment.

How about going with something like the blood-frenzy that chaos dreds suffer from? That would make them less reliable but still be able to pack a punch.

I was thinking about this:
Corrupt AI: An error in the Robots logistics engine can cause the Robot to behave extremely erratically. At the start of the movement phase roll a D6 for each robot in the squad.

1 - Full stop. The robot just stops dead and may not move, shoot or assault that turn whilst the AI attempts to correct the error. Next turn when you roll again any further results of 1 count as "move as normal" as the error has been patched well enough to last the remainder of the battle.

2 - 4 Move and Shoot as normal

5 - Overcharged. The robot suffers a massive power surge and moves double in both the movement phase and assault phase. If there is an enemy within range it must charge in the assault phase. The robot may still fire during the shooting phase however all weapons fire at half range and suffer a -1 penalty to hit.

6 - Blazing Barrels. The weapon loader subroutine malfunctions causing the robot to halt and unleash a furious storm of gunfire. All weapons may be rapid fired but for that turn are subject to the "gets hot" rule.

What do you think of that?

http://www.specialist-games.com/asse...mechanicus.pdf

Earth Scorpion posted that link up the other day. It certainly makes for some interesting reading and has lots of potential.

[IncubiLord]

I'd feel more inclined to say Av10/10/9 that way they aren't as hardcore as a dread but can take a wee bit more punishment.

Problem with that is that they are then near invulnerable in CC against IG, Orks, gaunts, Tau, and even some daemons. If you're going to allow a fair number of them, they need to be 9/9/9. Otherwise, we're talking an Elite or HS unit that probably won't ever be taken over the other DM goodness.

What do you think of that?

If the result of 1 only applies once in a game at most, it should be can't move or shoot.

I'd cut the shooting from power surge altogether, as power has been rerouted to a safe use (movement) and away from the volatile ammo bins/fuel cells.

For blazing barrels, make all weapons count as "Heavy X+1, gets hot" for the turn with X being the maximum number of shots normally allowed the gun at full range (Rapid fire -> Heavy 2, Assault/Heavy X -> Heavy X+1, Pistol -> Heavy 3)

Earth Scorpion posted that link up the other day. It certainly makes for some interesting reading and has lots of potential.

Meh.
Machine God host-maker-wannabe, fleshcraft, vanilla, and AI-lover are fine classes for loyalist scum, but the DM deserves our crafts.

[Flame of Udun]

Problem with that is that they are then near invulnerable in CC against IG, Orks, gaunts, Tau, and even some daemons. If you're going to allow a fair number of them, they need to be 9/9/9. Otherwise, we're talking an Elite or HS unit that probably won't ever be taken over the other DM goodness.

Why don't we give them a normal statline with a high toughness and a terminator armour style save throw.

If the result of 1 only applies once in a game at most, it should be can't move or shoot.

Sorry that's my bad for missing it out. I've added it to the text now.

I'd cut the shooting from power surge altogether, as power has been rerouted to a safe use (movement) and away from the volatile ammo bins/fuel cells.

The power isn't being re routed, it's surging through all systems, so the bot is trying to follow its commands but is compelled to move and act at double speed so it still wants to shoot at its designated targets but because its tearing along it's not going to be half as accuate hence the half range and -1 to hit penalty but maybe a quarter range and -2 penalty would be better.

For blazing barrels, make all weapons count as "Heavy X+1, gets hot" for the turn with X being the maximum number of shots normally allowed the gun at full range (Rapid fire -> Heavy 2, Assault/Heavy X -> Heavy X+1, Pistol -> Heavy 3)

Ok I'm not sure I understand the benefit of making it heavy?

Meh.
Machine God host-maker-wannabe, fleshcraft, vanilla, and AI-lover are fine classes for loyalist scum, but the DM deserves our crafts.

Yeah but these are the base ideas that provide background for the corruption and radicalism of our crafts. I think its some good fodder that we can take and twist and use to justify our twisted Magi.

[IncubiLord]

All weapons may be Rapid Fired doesn't give any increase in shootiness to Rapid Fire weapons, decreases the shootiness of Heavy weapons, magically doubles the range of Pistols and many Assault weapons, and generally doesn't seem a very sound rule to me.

Making it Heavy requires the unit to STOP if it's going to shoot, and makes all shots travel the maximum range of the weapon.

[Flame of Udun]

All weapons may be Rapid Fired doesn't give any increase in shootiness to Rapid Fire weapons, decreases the shootiness of Heavy weapons, magically doubles the range of Pistols and many Assault weapons, and generally doesn't seem a very sound rule to me.

Making it Heavy requires the unit to STOP if it's going to shoot, and makes all shots travel the maximum range of the weapon.

Ahhhhh, of course! I'm with you now . As I said the bot stops anyway so that fits nicely. Good call mate!

[IncubiLord]

Here to help.

On the other points:

Why don't we give them a normal statline with a high toughness and a terminator armour style save throw.

Cuz termie armor makes them near invulnerable to Heavy Bolters, Starcannon, Disintegrators on minimal, etc; and a high toughness alone can cause quite a bit of trouble.

AV 9 means a fist or lasgun MIGHT hurt, but everything stronger has a better chance of hurting them.

The power isn't being re routed, it's surging through all systems

What, you're gonna build a robot with a box full of explosives and NOT put a surge protector in to keep it from going off IN the robot?

A DM Magos should be smarter than that. Just give the robot a way to reset the switch when the surge abates.

[Flame of Udun]

Cuz termie armor makes them near invulnerable to Heavy Bolters, Starcannon, Disintegrators on minimal, etc; and a high toughness alone can cause quite a bit of trouble.
AV 9 means a fist or lasgun MIGHT hurt, but everything stronger has a better chance of hurting them.

Ok AV9 all round it is then.

What, you're gonna build a robot with a box full of explosives and NOT put a surge protector in to keep it from going off IN the robot?
A DM Magos should be smarter than that. Just give the robot a way to reset the switch when the surge abates.

I suppose but perhaps the description doesn't fit what I'm trying to achieve. Hmmm, Ok how about this:
5 - Rampage! The Robot suddenly begins to charge at full pelt towards the nearest enemy unit, guns blazing. The robot may move an extra D6" in both the movement phase and when assaulting. The robot may still fire during the shooting phase however all weapons fire at quarter range and suffer a -2 penalty to hit.

[IncubiLord]

Just cutting the weapon range to half should be enough of a penalty then.

That's all Ork Warbikers suffer.

[Flame of Udun]

OK So with the amended rules:
Mechanicus Wardroid(?)
WS=4 BS=4 S=5 AV= 9/9/9 I=4 A=2
Type=Walker 4-8 per squad
Weapons: The Wardroid has a Dreadnought CCW and a single heavy weapon
Choose from a Heavy bolter at +20 pts, a Lascannon at +25pts, an autocannon at +15pts or a Multilaser at +10 pts. One member of the squad may upgrade their heavy weapon too a Cyclone Melta Blaster at +35 pts or a plasma cannon at +40pts.

Corrupt AI: An error in the Robots logistics engine can cause the Robot to behave extremely erratically. At the start of the movement phase roll a D6 for each robot in the squad.

1 - Full stop. The robot just stops dead and may not move, shoot or assault that turn whilst the AI attempts to correct the error. Next turn when you roll again any further results of 1 count as "move as normal" as the error has been patched well enough to last the remainder of the battle.

2 - 4 Move and Shoot as normal

5 - Rampage! The Robot suddenly begins to charge at full pelt towards the nearest enemy unit, guns blazing. The robot may move an extra D6" in both the movement phase and when assaulting. The robot may still fire during the shooting phase however all weapons fire at half range and suffer a -1 penalty to hit.

6 - Blazing Barrels. The weapon loader subroutine malfunctions causing the robot to halt and unleash a furious storm of gunfire. All weapons count as "Heavy X+1, gets hot" for the turn with X being the maximum number of shots normally allowed the gun at full range (Rapid fire -> Heavy 2, Assault/Heavy X -> Heavy X+1, Pistol -> Heavy 3)

Craft Options: Yet to be decided.

How does that sound?

[IncubiLord]

Like a weakly-armored version of Killa Kans.

I thought they were going to be more numerous and less heavily armed. These guys deserve better Armor than 9/9/9 if they're going to be a light-dread Elites choice.

[Flame of Udun]

So give em dread CCW's and boost the squad to 4 - 8?
[EDIT] stats changed to match

[Puffin Magician]

Well I had to be extremely vulgar with my PC after a shortcut ate my post, but I'm calmed down and ready to retype! Here's hoping I remember everything I wanted to say.

The tanks really don't float my boat. They just look too present day, apart from the one with the crystal on top, and not quite esoterically mechanicus for my tastes.

Remember that they were very basic portrayals of ideas. The Fusilier is an idea that originated from a Chaos Squat/DarkMech/Iron Warriors TechnoCrusade campaign I was thinking of, and was suitably "siegey" and semi-ancient looking. They're more to get the point across about their rough shape, position of things, and dimensions - that's all. I really wish my scanner would work.

Reduce the amount of powerful ordanance that Custom Vehicles can take, 0-2 or something

I'd limit them to 0-1 Ordnance weapons straight-off; and no option to take another Primary Weapon in the case of Indirect Ordnance weapons. Griffon Mortar carriers with a turret Lascannon and Sponson Multilasers? Not a chance!

Legio Cybernetica... AV 9/9/9 walkers... If you're going to allow a fair number of them, they need to be 9/9/9... better Armor than 9/9/9

So... not Av9? The problem with Av9 is that, despite your intentions [which I agree with to a degree] about them being unstoppable vs. gaunts/guardsmen/etc, they will be ravaged severely by Multilasers, Heavy Bolters, Shuriken Cannons, and the like. A lone Chimera could conceiveably blast enormous holes in a Robot Cohort with it's "s5+, Heavy 6" firepower. Either make them largish squads with unit statlines [Big Mutants], or smaller squads with Av10 [Kanz]. Both work for several armies already, so something must be working right.

I'm a strong advocate of Robots using existing statlines, and going by existing, canon, classification:

Castellan: 2 Powerfists = Feral Ogryn
Crusader: 2 Power Weapons = Powerlifter Sentinel
Cataphract: 2 Heavy Weapons = Mars/Armag Sentinel + H/K Missile; FW Support Sentinel
Colossus: CCW + Assault Weapon = Orgyn
Conqueror: CCW + Heavy Weapon = Catachan/Mars Sentinel

Despite that feeling like a plug for my own ideas and Robot army using the Feral Ogryn Doctrine, I really do feel as those are very fair stats used to characterfully represent some long-OOP models using a rather recent list adjustment. If we're going for a generic/new DarkMech Robot design, I'd base it off one of the above units and just tweak what we want changed.

I also feel that they should be restricted to a single Craft, in order to keep some of the more competative Force selections from being too hectic or having to scrap some great ideas. I see no reason why a WarpCraft Devotee would be accompanied by Robots, since it's dealing with bio-circuitry [does that make it FleshCraft, or ForgeCraft? I'm on the fence...]. I'd even go so far as to make it a bodyguard option for Magi of whichever Craft they belong to.

Regular schmoes can have Servitors, a Magos with some influence can grab a Praetorian or two... but a member who really knows what they're doing can muster up a Cohort of hulking robots to stomp and blast his foes.

Corrupt AI:

I'd make Rampage treat the robot[s] as Cavalry [which is Move 9", Assault 9", right?] and any weapons fire @ Bs2. "Charging towards the nearest enemy unit" makes it sound too much like the Chaos Dreadnought Frenzy table. Just make them crazy.

Why bother with "Pistol -> Heavy 3" if the Robots can only be given Heavy Weapons? Why Heavy 3 in the first place?

Also, don't roll for each Robot individually as that's senseless - what if 1 gets a "Rampage" while others get "Full Stop"? They'd have to break coherency to follow their special rules, and that's a huge no-no.