Suggestion for making shields more effective?

[Tulkas]

Hello all,

I've been pondering on how to make shields more effective. It's the only piece of armor I use (apart from helmets) if I'm using armor at all. But there's hardly any reason for taking shields, since there are enough ways to negate the armour save they give. I mean, St4 and you've already bypassed the shield. And there's more than enough units with S4 or S4 weapons for me to leave the Shields at home. So I've been considering two options to take shields anyway. I'd like your views on them.

Option 1) let shields have a -1 to hit penalty against shooting (so enemies shooting a model with a shield get another -1 to hit). The idea behind this is basically that the shield gives you cover. Option 1A), Let shields always provide cover (being useless if you're already in cover).

Option 2) let shields give +2 armour save against shooting attacks.

[Botjer]

What im doing in the dark age rules is to make the shields give a special shieldsave that is unmodifiable, except if you roll a 6 to hit, in which case the shieldsave is ignored.
The shieldsae is 5+ fo shields and 6+ for bucklers.

[thesoundofmusica]

You can rip your hair off trying to balance shield vs dual wield. But end of the day, there's only so much can be done with a d6. Couple months back someone here on warseer said something like "why not just say it also gives an attack?". Me and my group tried it and we never looked back. Think of it like this: Now the basics for everyone is to have 2 attacks and you just have to decide what the perks are for each hand; parry, armor save, hammer stun etc... And since dual wield was king anyways, now you can have those models with shield if you like that look, without gimping yourself or getting into insane monologues in your head about how to balance that shield vs dual wield haha.

In our group we call it shield bash, and its the same as a dagger attack not to make it too powerful and have everyone with shields.

[Brother Fenix]

Option 2) let shields give +2 armour save against shooting attacks.

I like this idea, has anyone done much play testing?

[Tulkas]

Haven't playtested it yet, though I hope to give it a go soon (tomorrow if it all works out). I also very much like the idea of a dagger attack. Did you raise the cost of shields to 'balance' this?

[thesoundofmusica]

I didnt think a cost increase was needed. With pretty much everyone having 2 attacks, it comes down to what bonus each hand is given... Hammer stun is only 3g for example so 5g for a 6+ save, which tbh will be ignored due to strength or crits very often, didnt feel over the top really. Just gives some flavor.

Edit: mordheim is still a game that favors attacker heavily so to max that aspect you could argue that weapons with an offensive bonus like say hammers/clubs are still prefered. I dunno, its a matter of playstyle perhaps.

[Tulkas]

How's this?

Shield bash:
Combat Skill.
You may make one attack this turn (only in your own phase) against one target. If the attack hits, the enemy is staggered by the force of this blow and may not attack again this combat phase. Must have a shield (offcourse).

So that would mean the Shieldbasher can't make any other attacks that turn (though his friends in the same combat could offcourse). I'm thinking about a kind of save the target could make to resist it, perhaps a Toughness test or something... It wouldn't be too powerful I think, its just useful to keep a powerful enemy (Vampire, Possessed) from tearing you apart.

Edit: Could also make it a Strength skill i.s.o. Combat.

[thesoundofmusica]

Ye go for it. Some groups are into more advanced kinds of rules and others like to keep it simple and streamlined

[Zekk05]

Im a definate fan of streamlined and simple. the less crazy rules are introduced, the less loopholes can be found (and thus requiring more crazy rules to fix)
Also makes it easier for new players to learn the game. theres enough rules as it is to try and remember!

[Eyrenthaal]

In our gaming Group we just sent with the shield+handweapon bonus from the previous rule set in whfb. Has been working very well for us.

[Brother Fenix]

Im a definate fan of streamlined and simple. the less crazy rules are introduced, the less loopholes can be found (and thus requiring more crazy rules to fix)
Also makes it easier for new players to learn the game. theres enough rules as it is to try and remember!

I agree with Zekk, although I do think Shields and armor need a little modification to make them more "playable"

[kramplarv]

We use a rule that is -1 to hit when dual wielding, until you get a certain combat skill. So anyone hitting something on 3+, would hit on 4+ when dualwielding, hit on 4+ would hit on 5+ when dualwileding etc.

Also, we made handweapon+shield = +1 additional parry armorsave in close combat, just as in warhammer 6/7th edition. So a Warrior with light armour and shield would have 4+ save in closecombat. 6+ for LA, 5+ for Shield+LA, 4+ For shield,LA and Parry save.

(handweapon being, sword, axe,mace,club,hammer)

[Zekk05]

my group recently adopted the Shield Bash attack rule, that is, shields give you +1 armor save and an extra attack. The shield attack is a normal attack that can not cause critical hits. Its definetely catching on, more and more people are using shields in close combat, and people are actually THINKING about which weapons to use in a combat. so far, so good!

combined with the adopted house ruling of all armor is 50% off, we re actually starting to see more human warbands pop up too

[brokenv]

After a lot of playtesting and augmenting, I made the following changes that I think make the most game balance:

1. Parry changed to rolling over opponent's Weapon Skill, but you can't parry a 6 to hit
2. Shields changed to 6+ unmodified save on to hit rolls instead of wound rolls
3. Off Hands at a -1 to hit but Heroes can gain a combat skill to negate
4. Armour at same prices, but altered to ignore movement penalties and saves changed to Leather=6+; Light=5+; Heavy=4+, Ithilmar=3+ and Gromril=2+
5. Blackpowder, Double-handed, Heavy Weapons and Halberds can destroy Shields if a 1 is rolled on the save
6. and I add some fun Shield skills in Combat, like a Shield attack and a Mastery to avoid destruction

The parry change benefits higher weapon skills more fairly, as well as giving a better benefit to getting WS of 6 (in normal rules you only really need a 5)

Changing Shields to hit rolls makes more sense, I think, as it is hand armour, like bucklers, and should be treated with hits instead of wounds. I see wounds as happening after you get past your opponents hands and into the meat. Movement penalties were stupid in my mind, but if you like them, giving a Combat skill to ignore these penalties is another solution, but I went with the simplicity of ignoring them. The armour save changes made armour viable and strength modifiers matter more. Everytime I played half price armour, it was close to being ok, but never fixed the problem as well as my current solution.

The weapon changes were more just to make some weapons actually worth choosing and to make it more like normal battle. Blackpowder never seemed worth it compared to a crossbow, but if you destroy a shield it might be. Halberds were useless before, but with offhand penalty and shield destruction, they are viable. Likewise, giving Flails, Morning Stars and other Heavy weapons shield destruction while they have their +S bonus just made sense. The main thing is, when peons and henchmen battle, shields should be destroyed more regularly by heavier hitting weapons, and while Heroes might master their shields and avoid destruction, you would have to train for it. With all these balances, you can see a much more balanced fight if you have a dual wielding warrior at 6-20gc (good offense, poor defense unless sworded up), a sword and shield warrior at 15 gc (great defense, poor offense), a double handed warrior at 15 gc(great offense, poor defense), or a cheap one mace warrior at 3 gc (okay offense, poor defense).

[Richard_III]

I would be amiable to making the change to the current WFB rules - i.e. if you have a Shield and a Hand Weapon (single handed sword, hammer, mace, axe) you get the Unmodifiable 6+ save. Even consider giving it in the case of a critical wound - that would certainly make it worth taking.

[brokenv]

I would be amiable to making the change to the current WFB rules - i.e. if you have a Shield and a Hand Weapon (single handed sword, hammer, mace, axe) you get the Unmodifiable 6+ save. Even consider giving it in the case of a critical wound - that would certainly make it worth taking.

I'm not familiar with the WFB rules. Does this 6+ save count on wound rolls or to hit rolls? Does it stack with armour?


I played a lot of games with shields on wound rolls and stacking with armour, but it still feels wrong to me as Armour is usually when your hands and skill fail to stop an attack, where is a shield is your hands actively trying to stop an attack. That is why I love my changes to Mordheim where I make shields unmodifiable 6+ saves on hit rolls, although I have only playtested half a dozen games or so with this rule (but I like the way it works so far... feels like armour impacts the game, but not unrealistically)

[Richard_III]

I'm not familiar with the WFB rules. Does this 6+ save count on wound rolls or to hit rolls? Does it stack with armour?


I played a lot of games with shields on wound rolls and stacking with armour, but it still feels wrong to me as Armour is usually when your hands and skill fail to stop an attack, where is a shield is your hands actively trying to stop an attack. That is why I love my changes to Mordheim where I make shields unmodifiable 6+ saves on hit rolls, although I have only playtested half a dozen games or so with this rule (but I like the way it works so far... feels like armour impacts the game, but not unrealistically)

Under current rules, the 6+ save is Unmodifiable (regardless of Strength or other special qualities of the attack) and ONLY works in close combat. That Unmodifiable save is an EXTRA benefit for being armed with a Hand Weapon/Shield combo (so you don't get it with Spears for example) which would be gained in addition to the normal +1 Armour save for taking a shield. This save is against the Wound (so like a normal Armour Save, but cannot be reduced or ignored) and is SEPARATE from the normal Armour Save, so for Mordheim, I would even allow it when a Critical Wound is scored.

Also, I would create new Combat Skill "Two Weapon Style" that is required to use an Extra Hand Weapon proficiently. Without that skill one should still be able to use a weapon in each hand, but would suffer a -1 To Hit for ALL attacks in that case.

Between the 2 changes, shields become quite useful as a CHOICE instead of ALWAYS taking an extra weapon.

Designer's Note: In Mordheim I would consider ONLY single handed Swords, Axes, Hammers and Maces (and possibly clubs and daggers, but I would lean toward no on these for purposes of the special rule) to be "Hand Weapons".

Also, if you do this I would include a new weapon choice -

SHORT SWORD, cost 5gc

Special Rules: Hand Weapon

(basically it is a Sword that is half the cost and so does not have the Parry rule)

Hope you enjoy, let me know.

[thesoundofmusica]

Many ideas ranging from simple to cumbersome. Its great to see so many ideas, but at the same time that if anything is proof that this issue wont see balance. I for one am not swayed.

[Richard_III]

Many ideas ranging from simple to cumbersome. Its great to see so many ideas, but at the same time that if anything is proof that this issue wont see balance. I for one am not swayed.

IDK - if there is a -1 to Hit penalty on using 2 weapons w/o a skill AND a shield and single hand weapon give what is effectively a "Step Aside" roll that can be used by Henchmen and Heroes alike, but only with HW/Shield and on a 6+ instead of 5+, I think it would be pretty balanced, super useful for starting warbands, but not so much for Great Heroes

[thesoundofmusica]

Perhaps but it also changes the pace of the game, and making dual wield have -1 to hit and giving shield an unmodified 6+ save in CC will both effectively make shooting more powerful by comparison.