Suggestion for making shields more effective?

[Richard_III]

Perhaps but it also changes the pace of the game, and making dual wield have -1 to hit and giving shield an unmodified 6+ save in CC will both effectively make shooting more powerful by comparison.

fair point

[brokenv]

Perhaps but it also changes the pace of the game, and making dual wield have -1 to hit and giving shield an unmodified 6+ save in CC will both effectively make shooting more powerful by comparison.

Unless you take my idea of making shields 6+ unmodifiable on to hit rolls instead of normal armour rolls, as that works against shooting and CC.

[Richard_III]

Most times, Armour is more effective against shooting as weapons have a basic strength (for bows a Str 3, so no negatives to save, crossbows 4 and black powder 4 and an additonal -1 armour save) instead of all the bonuses that can add up in close combat (especially against vampires and possessed) basically negating it outright.

Also mostly you can take cover against shooting and stay out of site and put henchmen out front to be shot at first - meat shields are the best shields

[IAmLegion]

I have a quick question as I'm a noob to mordheim. But everywhere I read, people keep saying that sheilds increase the armour save by +1. I don't see any mention of that in the rulebook. It just says a shield has a D6 save of 6.
Please help

[Whitesilk]

IAmLegion: Its on p16 of the LRB (the rulebook in the GW website under Specialist Games). The shield conveys a +1 to the armour save against missile weapons; then on p20: Close Combat (under the table for Wounding; subheading Armour); it goes on to save that armour save against close combat is resolved the same way as for shooting.

So, in a nutshell, shields add a +1 armour save to your character. If they have armour, it adds +1 to the overall armour value. If your character has no armour, then it gives them a 6 armour value.
((Just remember in this context adding...means reducing...+1 added to 5 = 4))

[IAmLegion]

WhiteSilk - Thank alot! I guess I just missed it.

Also 1 last thing. So at my local GW a few of us are starting Mordeheim obviously, and I was wondering if the Dark Elf Sea Dragon Cloak goes on top of the armour or is essentially "heavy armour" for all intensive purposes. Meaning that I can't combine it with light armour and shield to make a 3+ save

[Whitesilk]

Legion:: Dark Elves are overpowered, as are the Shadow Elves. To answer honestly: It goes over armour. There is nothing in the listing that does not say that it can not be worn with other armour. So yes, in CC you would have a 3+ save and against Missile a 2+.

[IAmLegion]

Thanks Whitesilk. To be fair there will be other unofficial warbands, so the campaign should be well rounded.

[Whitesilk]

Was going to go into my rant about how the Elves unbalance the game to much, but realized I'd not have my coffee yet. So your safe..for now

You'll see it as the campaign unfolds (that cloak can feasibly be found & bought within 2-3 games, if you didn't buy it from day 1). Our group started off the same way as yours is; within 2-3wks the Elven players restarted new warbands.

[Dribble Joy]

Unofficial doesn't always mean overpowered. There's plenty that are well balanced or downright weak as well.

[IAmLegion]

They just don't seem to have many options and I put together a warband with the 500 GC for this weekend. And I have nothing in my warband! I resorted to giving my people halberds for a bit more umph, and it's basically all I can afford. I think I have 1 ranged weapon.
Also I was going over the rules over and over, and the Cloak even going over the armour does not increase the armour save as the light armour does not say that it adds +1 like the sheild does. So Dark Elves can have a maximum of 4+ in CC and 3+ against shooting.

[Dribble Joy]

the light armour does not say that it adds +1 like the sheild does.

It doesn't need to. All armour stacks unless specifically stated that it doesn't.

[IAmLegion]

can u give me an example of that because my friends will need proof :P

[Whitesilk]

Legion: With all of GW gaming systems it comes down to whats written. If its not written down somewhere official, codex/rulebook/FAQ/magazine/supplement/etc., then its not ....official. So, the cloak is under "Special Equipment," not armour: meaning that it is NOT armour but a "magical" item that bestows power to the wearer. Also, in the items description there is no mention that it can not be used with armour. Soooo, it adds onto the armour value of the model equipped with it.

Also if a model has no armour ((and a shield is considered armour)) then that model has no Armour Save. If they get hit your praying to what ever Die God there is that the Wound Roll doesn't wound the model. IF you have armour, then you can roll equal or over that value on a d6 if you DO get wounded from the Wounding Roll. sounds confusing, but can't think of a way to write it easier. ((and this is about Armour and not rules like Parry or special skills))

Back to the Cloak: A model that is "naked" (no armour/a helm doesn't add to your armour value: only to your save you from being stunned) anywho...a naked no armour model has no armour save. Give them the Cloak and now they have a 5+CC armour save and a 4+Missile armour save. If this same model has Light Armour (a 6+ save/or +1 to the models armour value) then the TOTAL armour value of the model is 4+/3+....same model with a shield is now 3+/2+! !!!Crazy!!!

Remember "adding" armour values is more inline with subtracting the number..why...because lower Armour Value is better; so GW sees it as "adding" to the armour value, because you are improving the armour value.

Hope that helps... -Silk

[IAmLegion]

Ok, I can see why the Cloak wouldn't be considered armour, but rather a magical item instead.

But I can't agree with you regarding adding the +1 for having light armour as well as the Cloak. If a warrior is wearing heavy armour with the Cloak, then I would still say that you can choose which to use, seeing as the Cloak has a better save VS shooting. But I don't see how it adds to it.

So overall, the Cloak is the equivalent to heavy armour for other warbands, just slightly better VS shooting.

[Whitesilk]

That is your view on the subject and that is ok. What you are stating is whats called a "House Rule." A rule that you and your group implement, but is not officially accepted by GW.

Here is the sticky part of all this, aside from offering models and the orginal rulebooks/supplements on their website, GW does not support Mordheim any more. So they have not gone back and updated the rules beyond the 2002 Annual. The FAQ on the GW site was done around the same time (2002).

The unofficial warbands are such because they were never truly tested to see how they fared. The few exceptions are the Elves, Pit Fighters, and the Pirates. All were taken off the warband rooster and the Elves are the only ones that were once official but then officially removed. Due to rules/items such as this one.

Again, what Joy and I have stated is universally accepted GW Rulings. Case in point: Helms are considered armour, but someone thought that since it did not convey a armour value that they could equip characters that were not allowed to wear armour. Within the FAQ it was deemed that Helms are considered armour, for they are under the Armour Section, and that then meant only those characters able to wear armour/helms were able to buy and equip it. Simple? Well, a millions folks and a million views. ...and it is examples like this that we can safely say that if it does not say it can not stack...then you can wear the Cloak on top of armour. For it is not armour and it is a magical item which conveys magical mojo to the wearer.

But it is your game and your group, y'all can do as you see fit via House Rules...or go into the Mordheim Community Rules Edition (Coreheim?) and see if they address such issues and go from there. But again, if you're playing in a GW store its best to ask first if its ok to use non-GW supplements.

and you can See it adding to the armour value in a number of ways: ..its magical and the magic toughens the actual armour, or as a added "flak vest" where the hide/scales are adding a outliner against attacks, or (my fav.) you're wearing a magical sea monsters hide! enough said

edit: There is another Dark Elf warband out there: Druchii Warband (over at the mordheimer website, under Experimental Warbands) The main difference is that a few of the attributes are lower by 1 and cost is up for all the members, and it actually states that the Cloak can be worn with armour.

-Silk

[Dribble Joy]

After going through the rulebook and the Errata, I'll concede that actually there's no specific ruling on this.

Additional armour items are very rare and pretty much exclusive to unofficial warbands (and most of those state that they do or do not stack). The rules do not actually mention the stacking of armour aside from the cases of shields and mounted warriors.
Armour stacking in other cases is therefore largely an assumed carry-over from WHFB - There is no precedent for it in the RAW (GW rule sets are generally not permissive - you only do something if explicitly allowed, rather than you may do anything if not disallowed).

As for RAI, this is a foggy area.

I am unsure as to the best way to go about this in this specific case. If this is the only reason DE warbands are considered too strong, then your ruling helps alleviate this. If not, then I see no reason to nerf a 'valid' item. You can of course bring about a completely new ruling as you see fit - For example, you could say that the cloaks do not stack on armour in combat, but provide +2 against shooting.

[Whitesilk]

Quite true, but again for this particular warband (Dark Elf) this item is listed under the Special Equipment and not listed as armour. It is a item that conveys a bonus of armour to the model. And since its listed as Special Equipment it is therefore allowed onto a model from this warband.

Now under the Druchii Warband it specifically states that the Cloak can be worn over armour and grants said bonuses. The Druchii Warband was made to clarify this and other gray areas...and to attempt to balance the warband out.

Also, for the Dark Elf Warband, this is not the only reason the Dark Elf warband is considered strong. Its the whole list, like the Shadow Elves, and the whole list was removed from the rooster. Their statline, the individual cost for each character, and even the spells were deemed to unbalanced.

Regardless, I agree House Ruling or out-right removing this item can reduce its unbalanced effect...for this item.

[IAmLegion]

Ok, so I looked through the Druchii warband, and it does indeed state that the sea dragon cloaks work the way Whitesilk describes! On the other hand. they are a differant warband (though very very similar....). In fact the Cloak is 15 points cheaper than the Dark Elf Warbands Cloak.
But there are a few differances in stats and units (points as well). So saying that. I will have to say that these are 2 seperate warbands, only for the fact that the Dark Elf Warband was in the town cryer (which I did own a long time ago but got rid of it as I didn't need it).
So I do thank both of you for your help, but to be perfectly fair, I think this is the proper way to go about it. Dark Elf Warbands Sea Dragon Cloak does not add any modifier, but is essentially better heavy armour.

[Cambion Daystar]

... was in the town cryer (which I did own a long time ago but got rid of it as I didn't need it).

I'll bet you regret that now