Dwarf Army Book - Suggestions for 8th edition

[Craze_b0i]

What I've posted on Bugmans many times in the past that would make Slayers more interesting would be if they got the rules they had in Warmaster.

In Warmaster if a regiment of Slayers was still alive at the end of the game, the opponent got the VP for it.

Sounds like a fun rule. But I guess the counter-argument is that this is not what the army general wants, he wants his slayers to keep 'failing' their mission because they are more useful to him alive.

[theunwantedbeing]

The Dwarves should not have anything that blows itself up. For fluff reasons the master engineers try the items out for centuries (I believe is the term) to prove the machine/device works to their very high standards.

Agreed, dwarven cannon and grudge throwers should not explode.

I hope that the new version of the Anvil simply works without ANY chance of blowing up. Some of the ideas included things like ONE buff to choose from of 3 (like the cauldron of blood) - which could include ASF, adding one attack, Flaming attacks, perhaps an added d6 to charge range in the beginning of the movement phase to one unit.

I think it needs to work in the magic phase, in the same manner as bound spells.
However the Runesmith on the anvil would be allowed to strike multiples runes a turn rather than just one, giving the dwarf army a magic phase.

[Petey]

Agreed, dwarven cannon and grudge throwers should not explode.

That s a really interesting Idea. I wonder if it could be made with a simple rule add, like all dwarf warmachines subtract one from teh dice roll when rolling on the misfire table.

I think it needs to work in the magic phase, in the same manner as bound spells.
However the Runesmith on the anvil would be allowed to strike multiples runes a turn rather than just one, giving the dwarf army a magic phase.

Agreed

[The bearded one]

Sounds like a fun rule. But I guess the counter-argument is that this is not what the army general wants, he wants his slayers to keep 'failing' their mission because they are more useful to him alive.

I love the rule slayers had in the SoC slayerarmy, where the dwarfplayer got victorypoints for every slayer killed by a model with strength 5+. This rule encourages the player to throw his slayers at a monster, instead of using them as a tarpit.

[knightime98]

If the Slayers Rule were to come back in that format, I think it would be a step in the right direction for that unit. Going all out for a Hellpit, Hydra, Giant, and so on would not only be thematic but fluffy.

I really think it is a good idea.

As far as oathstones are concerned, I'm not so sure how you are going to 'force' another player to want to charge you. Aside from the Master Rune of Challenge. Then you are really messing with game mechanics. Anyone else with some ideas of how to incorporate Oath Stones where they make sense, provide fluff, and lastly will have rules that make it work. The last part, allow it to work is really key and essential. I don't see how to make it a viable option.

[dwarfboy]

I love the rule slayers had in the SoC slayerarmy, where the dwarfplayer got victorypoints for every slayer killed by a model with strength 5+. This rule encourages the player to throw his slayers at a monster, instead of using them as a tarpit.

I may be alone in this, but I don't tend to play for victory points. We have friendly[ish] games of fight to the death, in which we play till everyone's wiped out, or someone concedes. Also I may play wrong, probably do, but I always throw my slayers at the biggest monster or monstrous unit out there, unless of course the Grudge Throwers have taken them out. I love the fluff about them and so for the hell of it just aim them at the biggest things.

Perhaps for the oath stone have it like MR of Challenge, but aim it at characters or character led units that have to take a LD test to overcome the challenge rather than outright flee?

[Petey]

If the Slayers Rule were to come back in that format, I think it would be a step in the right direction for that unit. Going all out for a Hellpit, Hydra, Giant, and so on would not only be thematic but fluffy.

I really think it is a good idea.

As far as oathstones are concerned, I'm not so sure how you are going to 'force' another player to want to charge you. Aside from the Master Rune of Challenge. Then you are really messing with game mechanics. Anyone else with some ideas of how to incorporate Oath Stones where they make sense, provide fluff, and lastly will have rules that make it work. The last part, allow it to work is really key and essential. I don't see how to make it a viable option.

Simple, the dwarves get an ability Taunt which makes all enemy units within 18" gain the Berzerk Rage special rule BRB pg 70. You might even say that if the oathstone unit is the closest unit, it takes the test at -1 for heroes -2 for lords (whoever is sitting on the stone atm).
Or you can make the character on the oathstone be able to target a unit and give it Berzerk Rage.
Or you could make the lord on the rock gain a special shooting attack at target enemy unit. Both sides roll d6 and add leadership. If the enemy wins nothing happens. If the dwarf wins, that unit must charge the oathstone unit in it's next turn, or flee

[theunwantedbeing]

Anyone else with some ideas of how to incorporate Oath Stones where they make sense, provide fluff, and lastly will have rules that make it work. The last part, allow it to work is really key and essential. I don't see how to make it a viable option.

Unit upgrade : Oathstone
The unit may reform into a special square formation, counting all edges as it's front
The unit loses this ability as soon as it drops below 9 models (as there are no longer enough models remaining to form a defence around the stone)
+30pts

Allow all combat units to have this upgrade.
They can move afterwards (the stone is picked up and moved provided there are enough models to move it, Oathstones are heavy even for a dwarf!).
This can even be performed after winning (or losing) a combat.

What do people think?

[Liber]

Good post Knightime.

The Dwarves need a new 8th edition book...

Agreed! Its been over 6 years!

- General Army Rules - Relentless (good), -1 move to flee, pursue (fluffy), army wide +2 to dispel as it stands now (suggest to make this an additional +1 for each runesmith/ +2 for each rune lord). The point for the +1/+2 adding is so that the Dwarves can keep up with all the level 4 casters.

This all sounds fine to me.

- Flame Cannon (needs to be able to add runes, add range, and reduced cost by 20 points)

Yes! I've never had a FC and I've always wanted one...Hear that GW? I want to give you money so stop messing up the rules! Also I would like to see it taken off the 'black powder misfire chart' so it only blows up on a 1 like before (this was a double nerf that is always overlooked)

- Organ Gun (needs fixed, auto hits will vanish) - Points reduced (not nearly as effective with rolling to hit) and will probably be the least taken warmachine by far in 8th after the severe nerf, needs to be able to add runes.

I really hope this doesn't happen. I don't care what the points cost is but if they make it so you have to roll to hit as with firing grapeshot this is yet another rare choice that will be completely worthless...Although no matter what happens it and the FC need access to runes and engineers, its a stupid rule thats preventing it IMO.

- Anvil of Doom

Don't care at all about the Anvil, never taken it, don't ever plan on it

- Slayers - need serious built in buffs like flagellants of the Empire. They need to mirror flagellants but in their own style. Perhaps a built in 5+ Ward Save in combat/ 4+ Ward vs shooting/magic with Hatred first round. This makes them survivable enough to get to combat and then do some damage...

For this I have always been a loud supporter of RUNIC TATTOOS!

Seriously if that happens I will be so happy...and touch up alot of models (slayers especially) with cool tats...

Call them "Wards of Grimnir" and make em provide a ward save or something...Other than that Slayers should have frenzy and skirmish IMO.

Thats it, I'd leave the 'slayer axes' and 'always wound on 4+' as is.

- Hammers/Iron Breakers - need a 2-3 point reduction. Why would a hammerer cost the same as a Grave Guard model. But does not cause fear, does not have killing blow, is subject to fear, terror, panic, and cost more points ??? Or they need to make Gromril armor standard with a 1pt decrease. Need to be able to take a runic standard that fits in line with the 8th edition basic rule book banners (Dwarves are mutually excluded from taking any magic items/banners from the BRB thus making them inferior).

Gromril armor should be buffed to a 3+ save...either that or ignore the first -1 of armor pen...something to make it worthwhile and fluffy.

Hammerers should be given Gromril, they are the family and personal guard of the Lord, why the hell they don't have it is beyond me.

Point is Ironbreakers need something (anything) to make them unique, and Hammerers could use with a better save.

Come to think of it, all Dwarfs should wear heavy armor...so that would be warmachine crew, thunderers/quarrelers.

-Thunderers / Quarrellers - are over pointed by 2 points... 14/11 points for one shot ??? or it would be even better if they got the move and shoot. I'd even like the idea of being able to swivel/pivot on the spot and shoot. Dark Elf crossbows get to move and shoot why can't Quarrellers ? Same type unit?

I more or less agree about them being overcosted, pretty fair bet something will be done about this. (or as I suggested above, give all dwarf units heavy armor...they are all the same model as the warrior for petes sake)

- Gyrocopter - I think this is fine as is... perhaps, a -2 armor save.

Eh, I say keep it as is but give it its bombs back! They are still on the model, why the hell did they remove them from the 7th ed book??

- Oath Stones are outdated - I have no suggestions for fixes as just standing in one spot to be magic missiled and shot at doesn't make any sense to me. The only idea that even remotely makes sense is if you place the oath stone as a challenge. If the challenge is won, then the stone may be picked up and can move as normal again. Not even sure what benefit it could or should add under these circumstances. I'm simply at a loss here. The fluff and the idea are sound, however, implementing rules for it is a tough proposition. Any ideas you may have would really be entertained by myself.

Couldn't have said this better myself...And I also don't have many ideas on how to fix it...hopefully GW does.



Final thought...more of a wish: For the veterans of Dwarf Special units (Ironbeards, Gate Keepers, Giant Slayers etc.) to be allowed 15-25 pts of runic items like what the High Elves currently get. Doesn't make sense for Dwarfs to be denied this, and it would be just plain fun.

[Drongol]

Ironbreakers need to fit the tunnel fighter theme a little better than just "Longbeard, but with even better armor!" If memory serves, one of the BL novels had them armed with pistols, crossbow pistols, and riot-shield-looking pavises (with slots to fire said ranged weapons through). Think something like Kore from Goblins!, only without the ethical dilemma.

Another option would be to mimic the LotR tunnel guard or whatever they are, with a shieldman in the front rank and big polearm-wielding Dwarfs standing behind them. Things like caltrops (to reduce charge distance/inflict some wounds on potential chargers) might be nice as well.

Slayers need 2 attacks base and to give off Victory points when killed (but not commensurate to their costs, or else they become nothing more than Dwarf redirectors). Give them Skirmish and the ability to take Doomseekers as well and you're golden.

Hammerers should get Gromril armor and Stubborn as baseline.

Dwarfs in general need to have their points cost reduced by a bit, but not much.

Flame Cannons should mimic the Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon, but be a bit more balanced. That thing's just nasty.

Organ Guns should roll to hit without modifiers, much like Leadbelchers do now.

Cannons and Grudge Throwers should have their own misfire table and not have "Whoops, it blew up!" as a result. These are supposed to be the finest weapons known to the Old World. They shouldn't be blowing up as quickly as a much-abused Tilean big gun.

Runesmiths should be able to dispel at +2 and +4 to the attempt and channel dispel dice on, say, a 5+ (4+ for Runelords?). The additional dispel dice and such shouldn't be a part of the army.

There should be Thane/King-only runes that directly buff the unit he joins/is near to make them comparable in benefit to a Runesmith. And the rune system should stay in place with a bit of streamlining. Runesmiths getting bound spell runes is just fine so long as they remain bound spells (ie, +0 to cast).

The Anvil needs a complete overhaul but I am unsure how to make it work.

Finally, and this is me, I'd like to see something like an airship since they're becoming ubiquitous and some sort of MI--the ancestor statues mentioned in the BRB(?) for example. Right now, a Dwarf army is basically "Dwarfs with (Insert Weapon Here)" and breaking up the appearance would only help make them more interesting.

[KidDiscordia]

Ironbreakers need to fit the tunnel fighter theme a little better than just "Longbeard, but with even better armor!" If memory serves, one of the BL novels had them armed with pistols, crossbow pistols, and riot-shield-looking pavises (with slots to fire said ranged weapons through). Think something like Kore from Goblins!, only without the ethical dilemma.

Another option would be to mimic the LotR tunnel guard or whatever they are, with a shieldman in the front rank and big polearm-wielding Dwarfs standing behind them. Things like caltrops (to reduce charge distance/inflict some wounds on potential chargers) might be nice as well.

Slayers need 2 attacks base and to give off Victory points when killed (but not commensurate to their costs, or else they become nothing more than Dwarf redirectors). Give them Skirmish and the ability to take Doomseekers as well and you're golden.

Hammerers should get Gromril armor and Stubborn as baseline.

Dwarfs in general need to have their points cost reduced by a bit, but not much.

Flame Cannons should mimic the Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon, but be a bit more balanced. That thing's just nasty.

Organ Guns should roll to hit without modifiers, much like Leadbelchers do now.

Cannons and Grudge Throwers should have their own misfire table and not have "Whoops, it blew up!" as a result. These are supposed to be the finest weapons known to the Old World. They shouldn't be blowing up as quickly as a much-abused Tilean big gun.

Runesmiths should be able to dispel at +2 and +4 to the attempt and channel dispel dice on, say, a 5+ (4+ for Runelords?). The additional dispel dice and such shouldn't be a part of the army.

There should be Thane/King-only runes that directly buff the unit he joins/is near to make them comparable in benefit to a Runesmith. And the rune system should stay in place with a bit of streamlining. Runesmiths getting bound spell runes is just fine so long as they remain bound spells (ie, +0 to cast).

The Anvil needs a complete overhaul but I am unsure how to make it work.

Finally, and this is me, I'd like to see something like an airship since they're becoming ubiquitous and some sort of MI--the ancestor statues mentioned in the BRB(?) for example. Right now, a Dwarf army is basically "Dwarfs with (Insert Weapon Here)" and breaking up the appearance would only help make them more interesting.

Ironbreaker should get the Rune of Stone added back to their armor like they had prior to the addition of Gromil armor giving them a 3+AS. I would suggest they should have stubborn all of the time considering they are responsible for guarding the mines. If the enemy get past them they are into the soft underbelly of the Hold.

Hammerers should get Gromil armor and that is it. Hammerers already get Stubborn, They get immunity from Terror and Fear with Bodyguard. Perhaps expand this to include Heroes and Runesmiths. A brainstorm idea would be to allow them to have more than 1 champion in the unit, similar to the way Slayers operate.

Slayers have two attacks when you go with the 2 hand weapons option, and with adjusting to wound ability, there combat prowess seems acceptable to me. Give them a ward save perhaps similar to the Skaven Nightrunner Dodge ability. Call it "Grimnir's Luck" (A greater doom awaits the Slayer.) Add DoomSeekers back in a similar capacity as Skaven Weapons teams, say max two per unit.

Warmachines are fine as is with two exceptions. Give the flame cannon back its range component and return the misfire table on Special Warmachine so they blow up on a 1 instead of the 1-2. The Rare warmachines are Experimental items being developed by the Engineering Guild. They are not proven enough to warrant Runes. Check back in a hundred years. Rolling to generate the number of hits (or misfire) in addition to rolling to hit on the Organ gun is crap. If we are going down that road then there need to be a major point decrease for them, because I know i won't waste my time on them.

Runesmiths should get the same ability to count their "level" for dispel as mages get. Runesmith should not get the ability to cast spells even if they are bound spells unless someone can point out some good justification for it. Other armies having them is not a good reason. Runesmiths dispel abilities are a good balance to utter lack of spell casting ability so losing the Dispel dice generation would be a bad idea. The Rune systems works fine as is. Spell casting Runes are not needed at any level. IF there needs to be some tweaking of individual runes or the addition of runes, I could perhaps see that. Dwarfs should not get access to Common Items in the BRB.

Whats the problem with the Anvil? Its unique, it can do damage to the enemy or buff your units. Perhaps give it the abilty to use more than one Rune but make it progressively harder to cast?

Thunderers should get the "Move and Fire" rule back otherwise no real problems there. Large, Strength 4 crossbow are not designed to be move and fire weapons. DE Repeaters pay for their ability to move and fire by being weaker and shorter range.

Dwarves should never get Monster Infantry of any type for the simple reason they have the Slayer Cult. A group dedicated to finding their doom by seeking out monsters. Oil and water here people or perhaps Fire and Benzene would be better comparison. Dwarves also have the Gyrocopter is there any need for a blimp? And to be honest that makes them unique in their own right. I am already tired of the boiler plate armies templates being put out. Everyone has Monsters, Monstrous Infantry, Giant Clown Car-like vehicles and rules for re-rolling whatever.

[knightime98]

Simple, the dwarves get an ability Taunt which makes all enemy units within 18" gain the Berzerk Rage special rule BRB pg 70. You might even say that if the oathstone unit is the closest unit, it takes the test at -1 for heroes -2 for lords (whoever is sitting on the stone atm).
Or you can make the character on the oathstone be able to target a unit and give it Berzerk Rage.
Or you could make the lord on the rock gain a special shooting attack at target enemy unit. Both sides roll d6 and add leadership. If the enemy wins nothing happens. If the dwarf wins, that unit must charge the oathstone unit in it's next turn, or flee

That's all fine for armies who do suffer from having to take leadership test. However, this would by nature mutually exclude armies for which are immune to psychology. Such as VC, TK, and Daemons of Chaos. Then most armies have specific units which are ITP such as flagellants and so on. This is a very slippery slope and so far, I'm still not convinced that the oath stone can be fluffy AND work within a set of rules which are reasonable and fair for both sides. The only side line thing that I can think of is to add protection and dishonor to any unit/mage that tries to shoot or cast magic at the unit. In other words, the unit with the oathstone sitting still can somehow incorporate a redirect by ancestral runes. Something like both units (the original shooter/caster and the dwarf unit) share equally in the hits or damage). So, if 20 shots are fired and 10 are hits then each unit the shooters and the dwarf unit take 5 hits each. That would discourage the shooting/magic against a unit that is essentially a pin cushion. Now, don't get me wrong this is an IDEA folks not a demand (hint hint nudge nudge to one poster from earlier).

Too many other post to reply to but I will take them on one at a time as I have time to do so.

[Arctaeus]

Ironbreakers need to fit the tunnel fighter theme a little better than just "Longbeard, but with even better armor!" If memory serves, one of the BL novels had them armed with pistols, crossbow pistols, and riot-shield-looking pavises (with slots to fire said ranged weapons through). Think something like Kore from Goblins!, only without the ethical dilemma

Yes, a thousand times yes! Ironbreakers as a rare choice, short-ranged heavily armoured dwarves appeals to me.

And I'm a Vampire Counts player Ironbreakers in that role (with about 4 points more for a 2+ save and mini crossbows) would be awesome!

[Petey]

That's all fine for armies who do suffer from having to take leadership test. However, this would by nature mutually exclude armies for which are immune to psychology. Such as VC, TK, and Daemons of Chaos. Then most armies have specific units which are ITP such as flagellants and so on. This is a very slippery slope and so far, I'm still not convinced that the oath stone can be fluffy AND work within a set of rules which are reasonable and fair for both sides. The only side line thing that I can think of is to add protection and dishonor to any unit/mage that tries to shoot or cast magic at the unit. In other words, the unit with the oathstone sitting still can somehow incorporate a redirect by ancestral runes. Something like both units (the original shooter/caster and the dwarf unit) share equally in the hits or damage). So, if 20 shots are fired and 10 are hits then each unit the shooters and the dwarf unit take 5 hits each. That would discourage the shooting/magic against a unit that is essentially a pin cushion. Now, don't get me wrong this is an IDEA folks not a demand (hint hint nudge nudge to one poster from earlier).

Too many other post to reply to but I will take them on one at a time as I have time to do so.

Incorrect sir. Nothing in the rules I posted would make immune to psychology unit immune to taunt. They test as normal. Those ancient vampires have personalities and can be offended, as can demons and wight kings.

[woodster17]

I have no issue with the points costs for Dwarven troops; as long as they are worth those points. Along with HE, I believe that Dwarf troops should be elite, being one of the Elder races, but their stats should reflect how elite they are. I don't wish to see Hammerers and Ironbreakers reduced in points to match their stats, just buffed a little to make sure their stats are worth the price.

Gyrocopters, Flame Cannons, Organ gun rules need to be re-written for 8th edition. Agree with the OP about the Anvil of Doom; it's far too unreliable for what it's fluff states.

Apart from that, I don't have too many complaints. Dwarfs are reasonably competitive and don't require rules overhauls on the scale of WE and Brets.

[woodster17]

Sounds like a fun rule. But I guess the counter-argument is that this is not what the army general wants, he wants his slayers to keep 'failing' their mission because they are more useful to him alive.

Bleurgh. Dwarf slayers take an oath to die in battle but it is generally preferable if against a worthy foe. If they survive the battle and acquit themselves admirably clearly they have overcome an enemy not powerful enough to fulfill their oath. They are not fanatics in the sense of seeking instant death, they would prefer to slaughter an enemy rather than launch themselves on to the end of a goblins spear; that would be an ignoble and pretty pitiful way to die.

[The bearded one]

Dwarfs are incapable of doing less than their best and always enter the fray to win. Even slayers do so.

[Grimdesign]

If the Slayers Rule were to come back in that format, I think it would be a step in the right direction for that unit. Going all out for a Hellpit, Hydra, Giant, and so on would not only be thematic but fluffy.

I really think it is a good idea.

As far as oathstones are concerned, I'm not so sure how you are going to 'force' another player to want to charge you. Aside from the Master Rune of Challenge. Then you are really messing with game mechanics. Anyone else with some ideas of how to incorporate Oath Stones where they make sense, provide fluff, and lastly will have rules that make it work. The last part, allow it to work is really key and essential. I don't see how to make it a viable option.

I think an Oathstone should be more of an ability that provides a bonus against a unit

Oathstone: the owner of this Oathstone targets enemy unit, for the rest of the turn, oathstone owner has plus 1 attack against this unit. There are other options such as toughness, the idea being that there is an oath against enemy unit and that the oath is about to "collect"

[larabic]

Things i would like to see for the new Dwarf book:

-Anvil of Doom re-write
-Item redo to let dwarves be competitive with current magic item rules, let champs take 10-15 pts runes
-1 pt drop for warriors
-Change runesmiths completely to help resist this new crazy strong magic
-Ironbreaker's should get a shield wall rule to allow them to reroll an armor save on the turn they are charged or are -1 to hit on the turn they are charged
-Hammerers could use:Gromil armor and 2 attacks or weapon master rule or let them strike at initiative with great weapons
-Dwarf King should get to ride a throne +2 armor 4 str 4 attack and 18" inspiring presence
-Oathstone should be able to move after placed just not persue a broken enemy
-Slayers should get ward saves of 6+ vs shooting 5+ in combat
-Slayer heroes should be able to take a favored enemy (dragon,giant troll, ogres, etc) let them reroll to wound or something
-Golems as ogre sized infantry MV 5 WS 3 Str 4 To 5 Wo 3 At 3 I 1 LD 8 4+ armor save great weapons Magic resistance 2 50 pts each
-Misfire charts add +1 to the chart
-Organ stays the same, remove armor piercing
-Flame cannon get 0-12" range
-Dwarf Airship as the armies center piece; flies, 2 cannons, 6's to hit in CC.

Just a few of my thoughts on the subject of a book re write.

[The bearded one]

-Organ stays the same, remove armor piercing

You'd like to see the organ gun lose it's armourpiercing?