Slayers have 2HW, don't they? If so, I think they should have to trade in their multiple attacks to perform the HKB, but otherwise I think they would be fine. Note that they would still get their full amount of attacks when using regular KB against targets who are vulnerable to it.Originally Posted by King Thurgun
Slayers have slayer axes, allowing them to choose wether to use them as two handweapons, or as a great weapon, just like black orcs.
I don't think slayers should have killing blow though, as it's one of the least logical or fluffy rules for them to have. "Grarrggh, we're suicidal slayers who want to die an honourable death fighting the most large and brutal creature we can find! Send us to fight against characters and knights and such! Oh, but.. but not against monstrous units or monsters please, we're somehow more effective against humansized opponents.."
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I'd like it if Slayers got +1 to hit vs Monsters/MI/MC etc etc. That would be nice and would actually make you want to send them at them, especially coupled with their other slayer rules.
I like the fluff of special characters. Maybe the engineer and guy with the horn will make a comeback. Alaric would need a new model as he's just the generic shieldbearer model now.
There will be a big centrepiece model of sometype. I wouldn't mind a big dwarf golem/rune statue. I'd prefer that to an airship
While I'm loathe to disagree with you O bearded one - as you generally make some fine points - I think that you and thers are getting caught up in the slayer mythos & not the application.
I think the reason for scaling the Killing Blow is ot represent that the slayers are wetbacks who have just taken up the oath, but the champ/ hero/ lord options are actually pretty good at killing & while they would prefer to kill monsters they would gain an equally valiant end at the hands of a horde of Orcs, Chaos Warriors, etc which are all man-sized.
it could then be said the Dragon slayers have been around longer (to their shame) and as such deserve a much more fitting end, but also learned many more efficient ways to kill.
This scales again for Daemon Slayers. The way that I think it should work (in my head only) is similar to the WHQ slayer who not only increased his proficiency in dealing deth, but became far more reluctant to succumb to a less than honourable demise. For example: -
Troll Slayers - Slayer Axes
Giant Slayers - Slayer Axes, Killing Blow
Dragon Slayers - Slayer Axes, Heroic Killing Blow, 6+Ward(Resilience - negated if all wounds are lost in 1 strike i.e. he is hit with a cannonball)
Daemon Slayers - As above, except HKB is now on 5+ & Resilience save is now 5+.
I don't know how to cost these points wise, but it makes a slayer lord/ hero viable as no longer the hopeless cause that dies so easily, especially with the abundance of GW this edition & I think a more characterful unit choice.
"Better lucky than good" - Gene Hackman, The Replacements.
I agree with you, bearded one, about the killing blow for slayers. Why would they be good against anything but monsters? Thus my suggestion for HKB. It does make them effective against knights and characters, as well as monsters and monstrous infantry, but eh, that's not such a horrible side effect. In my experience, monstrous infantry and monsters have become even more common in lists than knights, so who knows how often it will come into play anyway? (Except against bretonnians!)
And in terms of fluff, it would not be such a stretch to say of slayers: "When no trolls, ogres or giants can be found, the slayers seek out the most elite and lethal troops their foe has to offer, grumbling all the while about being deprived of a proper fight with something larger and more grizzly."
Perhaps a killing blow that works only against monsters, and monstrous infantry, not against smaller things? I doubt it however. Too narrow in focus, and the developers always lean towards universal special rules when they can.
Originally Posted by Finnigan2004
Come on, everyone knows that the internet was designed to allow people to anonymously entertain dogmatic opinions that need not be defended with facts. See, I just did it there.Always remember, it doesn't matter if you win or lose... as long as you look really cool doing it!
I wish slayers got their own army book so that proper Dwarfs can get down to proper Dwarf business.
This could be easily done, Tomb King Sphinxes can only use their special "Thundercrush" attack only effects certain troop types. I do not think its a stretch to say slayers could get HKB only against certain troop types.
I think slayers should be a bit like they are in warmaster.
If they survive the battle, the opponent gets victory points for them. If they die, he does not.
They should get vanguard, but be forced to move towards the nearest monster the enemy has. If he has no monsters, they don't get to move.
Hkb (even restircted to against monsters only) is too powerful though. Against a dragon for example, you will have 16 attacks if in a horde (assuming no champ for a minute - though this is unlikely). That's 8 hits on average, giving you a 77% chance of killing the dragon in 1 go. Even considering how slow you are, thats just too good. I would simply have slayers ignore scaly skin saves if you must improve them against monsters. Great weapons would become slayer axes (or preferably a better name...) and allow the slayer skill to increase S to a value 1 greater than targets toughness up to a maximum of 8 when armed with them.
Other changes for dwarfs
1) Cannon to cause d3 wounds not d6. Cost to remain the same. Put simply, its overpowered currently.Note that I would expect the empire one to be similarly affected, and if slayers improve as above you have a viable anti monster choice as an alternative.
2) Some way of linking master engineer characters to runes on war machines.
These 2 combined should weaken dwarf war machines a little, and therefore encourage the army to move away from its potential gunline tendencies.
3) Flame cannon to be reduced in points and gain a 6" range.
I'll grant that one got too nerfed by FAQ.
4) Character oaths- see space wolf codex for how this could be implemented.
5) Slayer skills for the more powerful slayers.
6) Anvil of doom requires LOS for its abilities. More powerful abilities affect 2 units not D3. Anvil is a heavy support choice allowed in any army containing a runelord but is not a mount as before - remove the runelord profile from the anvil.
Just to make characters a bit more interesting. Anvil becomes a bit more reliable and, like the casket of souls, more flexibility is given as you can have the runelord lead a unit.
6) Army wide rule -countercharge. Any time a friendly unit is charged another unit within 6" of them may make an ordinary move as if in the remaining moves subphase. This move is resolved after the chargers have moved and can be used only if the unit chose to hold or stand and shoot.
Allows a more advancing dwarf line and means dwarfs can support each other and countercharge flanks quite easily as long as their units can hold in place (pretty likely).
7) Army wide rule - Relentless. If an army contains no war machines (apart from gyrocopters) then all models gain the vanguard rule.
Another way to alow dwarfs the chance to get right in the enemies faces.
8) Anti magic - Dwarfs only generate 2 dispel dice not 4. However, every time the opponent casts a spell (after any dispel attempts are made), roll a dice, adding 1 to the score if you have any friendly runesmiths on the table. On a 6, the spell is dispelled by the sheer force of will (the whole army chants "I don't believe in magic"...). I'd still allow multiple runes of spellbreaking also.
Just my thoughts as an opponent not user of dwarf armies. I'll agree they may need a tweak, but ultimately what I'd want to see is a book that encourages dwarfs to actually try stuff in the movement phase beyond the odd shuffle of the feet, without the need to up the movement profile to 4.
668 - the neighbour of the beast.
Army special rules:
Gromril armor 4+ save
All dwarf armor is durable (-1 to armor modifiers)
Dwarf handguns are not move or fire
Dwarf cannons, stonethrowers, flame cannons, organ guns treat misfire explosions as the 2nd worst misfire result (cannot explode).
Remove relentless and resolute.
Dwarfs hate greenskins.
Lords and heroes
Dwarf Lords are stubborn. Can chose upto 150 pts of runes. Cost unchanged.
Daemonslayer, add HK. Cost unchanged. Remove slayer skill (but not axes). Can chose up to 150 pts of weapon runes.
Dragon slayer add HK, upto 75 pts of weapon runes. Remove slayer skill.
Thanes. Allow bsb to chose equipment normally.
Core:
Heavy armor added to all core for free. No other changes.
Special:
Remove option for more than one slayer champion. Champion gains HK. Remove slayer skill.
Ironbreakers have the rune of stone on their gromril armor
Hammerers get gromril armor
New runes/changed runes:
Master Rune of Adamant 150 pts (armor rune)
Against any unsaved wound or attack that kills outright (KB, spell etc). Test against the models unmodified T, if passed ignore the wound or instant death. This rune can never be negated or destroyed.
Master Rune of Spite 50 pts (talismanic rune)
4+ ward that returns the wound on the enemy that caused it with no armor save allowed.
I would rather see the Slayer King character amke a return that makes slayers core and all core into special choices. Specials into rares and no war machines other then the slayer axe thrower.I wish slayers got their own army book so that proper Dwarfs can get down to proper Dwarf business.
I'm your huckleberry
"Pain or damage doesn't end the world, the world ends when your dead... and you have more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back" -AS
Just a retort to the above issues.
1) Cannon - The Dwarves only have 2 phases of a 4 phase game. Your suggestion says that Dwarves who are the ideal warmachine makers are not worthy of a d6 wound machine. If anything, the warmachine encourages the enemy to come to the Dwarves (thereby, making up for one phase of the game for the dwarves by their lack of mobility and movement). If this were to change to only d3 wounds, you'd see a lot less Dwarven players, in my opinion.. Also Empire players would drop vastly, as they don't have any other response to big nasty monsters, specific to HPA, Hydras, and Dragons.
3) I vastly disagree with your interpretation of the FAQ rule. The Flame Cannon already has a 12" range and the FAQ does NOT remove it. There is a spot on the Flame Thrower Rules in the mini rule book pg. 114, specific to paragraph 3 - that reads and quote, " Unless otherwise specified, a fire thrower has the following profile". Here is the key, the range is specified in the Dwarven book. I'm not sure how many players miss this part of it. In fact, the entire profile for the Flame Cannon is specified. I scratch my head why GW even placed the FAQ in the first place. Now, this is of course my opinion.
*Side note - I had people argue with me in 6th edition that the Flame Cannon did not count as flammable attacks. Primarily because the rules did not say they were flaming attacks.
8) Anti magic - Where are you getting that Dwarves generate 2 dispel dice? or even 4 dispel dice? You have to have either rune lord, rune priest, or anvil to get dispel dice. The army in general has the rule that allows them to add 2 to their dispel attempts. Unless you are changing their base rules to incorporate said changes?
The Dwarves lack in magic and movement, for this huge penalty they should be not only be good in combat and shooting, but AWESOME. I mean that sincerely. In combat they should be on par with WoC. The Dwarves should be second to none but on an even level with WoC. WoC sacrifices warmachines (which is even arguable for the Hell Cannon) and that's about it.
Anyhow, thanks for your ideas as input for other players against Dwarves enlightens the entire conversation as a whole. Your suggestions are noteworthy.
As per the Dwarf Errata and FAQ:*My boldPage 39 – Flame Cannon, Firing the Flame Cannon
Change to “Flame Cannons shoot using the Fire Thrower
rules. In addition they have the Multiple Wounds (D3) special
rule.”.
Firing the Flame cannon refers to an entire section of the text that includes the weapon profile. Therefore the reference to 12" range is being removed. Sorry.
My ideas:
Army Rules
Dwarf Handguns can move and fire.
All Dwarfs gain +1 Initiative, Dwarfs are slow due to the legs not their brains and would make GW more of a penalty.
Dwarf Armour
Dwarf light armour 5+
Dwarf heavy armour 4+
Gromril Armour 3+
Runes
Rune of Stoicism: count each rank twice.
Return of Master Rune of Death grants Heroic Killing Blow, lower pointed rune provides simple Killing Blow. Perhaps a rune that works like the spellthieving sword as it seems very Dwarfy.
Master Engineer can take Gyrocopter as mount and can affect Rare warmachines.
Longbeards
Reduce upgrade to become Longbeards to +2 points per model.
Option to buy Gromril Armour for +2 points per model.
Old Grumblers changed to all units within 6” are immune to panic.
Quarellers
Option to upgrade to Longbeards for +2 points per model, become Ballistic skill 4.
Rangers
Obstacle strider
1 unit per 1,000 points played.
Miners
Moved to Core
Hammerers
Wear Gromril armour
Devastating Charge special rule.
Ironbreakers
Immune to psychology special rule
Gromril Armour with tower shields that provide +2 armour save and parry save.
Flamethrower team.
Gyropcopter
Use fast cavalry rules, can be taken in squadrons and moves 20".
Anvil of Doom
Runes cast on a 3+
Requires line of sight and has a range of 36”
No Ancient Power
250 points 0-1 Rare choice
Failed Rune Table
1.......cannot be used for next two turns
2-3....cannot be used next turn
4-6....Nothing happens this turn
Rune of Cleaving
Unit gains +1 strength.
Rune of Fire
Unit gains flaming attacks.
Rune of Swiftness
Unit gains always strike first special rule.
Rune of Oath and Honour
Unit can make a normal march move, but cannot charge.
Rune of Hearth and Hold
Unit gains immune to psychology special rule and can reroll failed break tests.
Rune of Wrath and Ruin
One enemy unit takes 1D6 magical attacks and all movement is halved.
Rune of Iron
One unit gains 6+ ward save/+1 to its ward save.
Rune of Fury
One unit gains +1 attack per model.
Rune of Stone
One unit gains +1 to its armour save.
Rune of Striking
One unit gains +1 Weapon Skill.
Rune of Flight
One unit gains throwing weapons with 12” range.
The runes could perhaps also be bought by Runesmiths/lords and could only affect the unit they are in, perhaps 1 or 2 for Runesmiths and 3 or 4 for Runelords.
Flame Cannon
Has rule similar to the Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon.
Organ Gun
It will likely lose the autohits so I would suggest 3 artillery dice, but for it to misfire you have to roll 2 or more misfires.
Cannon and Grudgethrower could go up in price 30pts and 20pts respectively.
All Dwarven warmachines (except the bolt thrower) have the Superior Construction special rule.
Superior Construction: replace lowest option on misfire chart with "the warmachine cannot fire for the next two turns".
Goblin Hewer can be taken as Rare and is 0-1 choice.
Long Drong's Slayer Pirates can be taken as Rare and is 0-1 choice.
Slayers
Upto 2 Doomseekers can be taken per unit of slayers.
Dragon and Daemonslayers can use slayer skills.
All Slayers gain Vanguard and A Glorious Death special rules.
Slayers have tattos of Grimnir as follows:
Trollslayer/Giantslayer 6+ ward save vs. shooting and magic
Dragonslayer 5+ ward save vs. shooting and magic
Daemonslayer 4+ ward save vs. shooting and magic
Cheers
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When life gives you lemons rub them in your enemies wounds.
Once again, here I am not trying to betroth this particular poster as some of the ideas are good and others no so much.
I will make this concession that the Anvil fails it's 'casting' idea when each and every special toy in all armies have to do the same.
For instance, if the Cauldron of blood wants to give a ward save, killing blow, or extra attack it must first roll a 3 or better. Then after it fails it rolls on a chart to see if it blows up.
If a warshrine for WoC wants to do something, it too must roll a 3 or better. Again, if it fails you roll on a chart to see if it blows up. Same for the Engine of the Gods, and so on.
I love the stagnant ideas that simply linger as if it should be welded in place as a permanent fixture of rules.
The Anvil either needs to be completely revamped (most likely) or simply just removed. It's broken (not as in over powered but as in it really needs a severe overhaul of the entire rule set). My idea is that it can do the same types of things that other army toys do that simply work (NO ROLL needed). My apologies if this seems a bit brash. What really gets me here is that the Dwarves are supposed to be the master craftsmen of the Warhammer World, yet, they are the only ones that have toys that have chances not to work ????? Seriously ?? The fluff of the armies fails in the rules on this particular item.
Get the idea.... The toy as I call it for each army should just simply WORK period. You should not have to roll to make it work. That was a design of 6th edition from 6 years ago. Get out of the funk and haze.... it is 8th edition where everything simply works, so too, should the new Anvil and it's rule set.
My thoughts on Dwarves - (unbiased of course since I play with all armies)
1) The similarity of combat units have to be addressed - Warriors, Longbeards, Hammerrers, etc etc - appear to be embellishments of a basic idea rather than fundamentally different units.
Each unit should have a different 'feel' - Miners Thunderers and Slayers in that respect are different from Warriors. That 'difference' should be extended to the 3 units above.
2) Fewer warmachines please or at least reduce their popularity. Gunlines (contrary to many players beliefs) are simply not good enough against good players. I would like less emphasis on pure shooting units. My competitive Dwarf lists hardly uses them.
3) My suggested solution to (1) and (2) - Merge them! Some warmachines are an upgrade to an infantry unit E.g. Longbeards can have an accompanying Gyrocopter
4) Runes for all Champions - 25 pts max
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Out of interest, what is your opinion on the concept of giving dwarfs options in the movement phase rather than boostnig shooting? After all, that is the main thing I'd want to see in a dwarf rewrite.
668 - the neighbour of the beast.
I agree with this but of course note the casket of souls has to cast its ability and doesn't automatically work. Bound spells would be a good workaround but very ineffective since dwarfs don't do other magic.
You could have the anvil have runic points (again better name needed). Spend runic points to trigger an ability, the more points the more powerful. You can generate extra points if you use no abilities durin a turn. That way it is automatic but can be slow and you need to carefully consider when to use its power.
If its automatic then remove the more powerful version - have this as a boost only available to kragg.
668 - the neighbour of the beast.
Well to keep uniform rules without rearranging charge order, the Dwarves should be no exception here. Example, Vanhel's Danse of Macbre for VC no longer allows units to charge in a magic phase. This will be a recurring theme throughout all of 8th edition for all armies. This is just like all warmachines must now roll to hit (so to will the organ gun and be completely nerfed and unplayable just like the helblaster vollygun for the Empire).
That aside, the only feasible way to add to movement is to allow the Quarrellers/Thunderer's to pivot in place and fire. Some have said the the Dark Elves should be allowed to move AND fire twice in the same phase because they have so called lighter weapons and a reduced strength and range. I play both of these armies and the Dwarves are paying more for their one shot than the Dark Dark Elves are paying for two. Yet, the Dark Elves can move also ??? Anyhow, this is a fix to allow shooters to adjust to someone creeping up on them. I'd even say that they can shoot what they are facing first then if they have a musician they can reform after with a Ld check (just like a swift reform after winning a combat).
Now with all that being said, the Dwarves should only ever have movement added in their movement phase so that no confusion or advantage/surprise is gained without any recourse from the opponent. An example of the exploitation of this was in 6th edition with the Tomb Scorpion. The thing popped up and had a bubble of 28 inches to charge. It's base move was 7 and then charge distance was double your base move. Since it could face any direction when popping up it had 14 inches in any direction as a radius. Thus 2 times the radius = diameter which is hence 28 inches. This was a real stickler item for me. Anyone with warmachines vs Tomb Kings were absolutely doomed. You had no response for this. GW fixed it in 7th or 8th edition but took like 5 years or better to do so.
So, having some runic movement added at the start of the movement phase would be the only real plausible way to do things. The Strollaz rune kind of incorporates this but it takes your BSB to do it. It's a gamble but can be worth it in the right application.
Isn`t the Casket the only 8th edition thing that `just works`so far.
The closest comparison in the VC book is the Mortis Engine, which can still wound itself on doubles, or cause massive miscasts with the optional upgrade. I know of nothing in the O&G or Ogre books which is comparable. The new Empire book should give us some idea of where they`re going with these sort of units, though.
The Anvil can be really hard to deal with (high toughness, ward save against shooting, then the limited number of attacks you get in combat versus a war machine combined with the possibility of the Runelord to have a rerollable 2+ armour save, etc.) so I don`t think it would be balanced for it to have an amazing set of power that automatically works without drawbacks.
IMO the best idea would be to strike the same sort of compromise that the current book goes for; basic powers go off without a hitch, and you can voluntarily go for better effects, or cumulative effects, or whatever, with a chance of failure. The fluff doesn`t matter at all, since an army of awesome war machines that never misfire is an overpowered idea from conception forward.
Last edited by Balerion; 19-02-2012 at 01:44.
My summation is that there is little that is inherently wrong with the Dwarf rules; they are simply a little bit out of date. When the AB was created the rules would have fit with the appropriate edition (6th). Now in 8th they could do witha re-vamp. My musts:
1. The ability to deal with damage must be reflected in the rules. Dwarfs are pretty much the toughest race there is, but currently die a little too easily. I see the value in taking GW with warriors as Dwarfs generally ASL due to low I, but they must be able to take some punishment. Whether you do this by creating Dwarven special armour rules/increase their potency/create specific rules like the aforementioned 'shield wall' concepts, that's up to debate. Dwarfs need to be able to make more saves though.
2. As I've said before, I have no issue with Dwarf troops being expensive as long as they are worth their point values. At current, most units are 1/2 points overpriced on a productiveness:value ratio. I advocate boosting stats to line up with the points, others say drop points. My argument is that Dwarfs are an elder race and like Elves should have more elite troops than other races. By rule, Dwarfs units should be able to win most combats. This is offset by being more expensive, which I like. It suits the fluff of a 'dying race' and reflects the millennia of training and weapon perfection.
3. The Anvil is indeed broken- For a race that doesn't use magic because they don't trust it, their means of dispelling it sure causes a lot of self-inflicted deaths on it's runesmiths. This isn't right; if they want to hit for the higher power runes then fine, risk/reward. But the Anvil should be a lot more reliable than it is.
4. Slayers- Just dated rules really. They need to be more effective as they don't really perform many useful roles in the army as it stands. HKB in exchange for their other attacks is viable, ward save perhaps or slayer skills would be cool.
5. New models for Hammerers, Ironbreakers, Slayers please.
6. Again, organ gun/flame cannon/gyrocopter rules need updating, if not the models for the latter two- Partial hits on 4+ inhibit how useful the gyrocopter is and it does have serious promise.
7. DONT MESS WITH RUNES
Last edited by woodster17; 19-02-2012 at 02:00.
Awake O Dead, for there can be no rest for ye beneath the earth. Let the splintered bones burrow from the grave pall. Let cold fingers grip time-worn blades, and unseeing eyes survey the fields of slaughter. For your time has come once more. And the dead shall walk.
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