Dwarf Army Book - Suggestions for 8th edition

[BooTMGSG]

The sugestion of Dwarf and beast teams instead of Bear riders, sounds interesing. Would it sit with the Fluff, and what sort of beasts are we talking about, Bears, wolves, Pitbulls?

I think the norse vs steampunk in one book is a good idea, though steampunk sounds a tad shoddy, a bit Skaveny. It should be precision engineering.

I can also see Dwarves carrying more things into battle. Anvils, More thrones!, Rune altar of Grungni/Valaya/Grinmnir, Keg of Power.

[ProphetofProfit]

My ideas for Core/Special/Rare infantry:



I haven't gotten around to artillery or characters.

Some reasoning:

Slayers get Skirmish and a Ward to not get shot up too easily.
Gromril upgrades I added after reading that unofficial Chaos Dwarf book which has a similar option but with Chaos armour.
Rune of Stone upgrades to allow Ironbreakers and Hammerers to be more heavily armoured than core units.
Rangers get light armour as they are scouting. Maybe 'upgrade to heavy armour but lose scouting option'
Increased Troll Slayers to S4, not that it matters a great deal.

Problems:
How to seperate Ironbreakers and Hammerers apart from one having a hand weapon and the other a great weapon. I went with 'Shield experts' for a 5++ parry.
Forgot to allow upgrades for Rangers.

[Skopey]

Ive always thought that slayers should count as wounding on3+ rather than 4+. Against monstrous opponents i mean. Also if the old "..up to a maximum str 7 for trollslayers, 8 for giant, 9 for dragon and 10 for daemons" from older editions for example, but making it up to a max of 6 for trollslayers, 7 for giantslayers, etc etc. IB should remain the only infantry to be equipped with Gromril imo, hammerers should have a special Buckler type shield that they can use while in CLOSE COMBAT and using Greatweapons so they will benefit from the extra +1 save granted by the shield and the +2 strength. Emphasis on CLOSE COMBAT ONLY

[Phazael]

Slayers are actually one of the best units in the current book, but I think I would alter their rules a little. Instead of the current slayer rule, make them +1 to wound anything that causes fear and +1 to wound anything with the Monster Rule (stacking). They would remain largely the same against most enemies, but their weapons would start to matter more and the characters would get a lot more attractive to take.

[The bearded one]

Slayers are actually one of the best units in the current book,

¿Qué Pasa?

They're okay enough (but I think none of the dwarf infantry units are 'not okay') , but 'one of the best'?

[Montegue]

I find that the reputation of the Slayer unit is significantly more effective than the unit happens to be on the table. No parry, no ward, S3 base - they're unbreakable, which is awesome, but they will almost certainly give up their points (which, I suppose, make the Slayers very happy). The slayer strength rule is kind of meh. Wounding on 4s is awesome, don't get me wrong, but you have to hit them, and you have to survive to make it matter.

I have found solid use for them against, say, Ironguts in the flank. The 'Guts still slaughter the Dwarfs in response (3 attacks to the flank per model. Ugh), but the Slayers generally add good effect to the overall combat, and only one needs to survive. I definitely wish that Slayer heroes and lords were much more effective. Ideally, they need a dodge-style ward save (similar to skaven assassins) in close combat.

[The bearded one]

Ideally, they need a dodge-style ward save (similar to skaven assassins) in close combat.

not so much dodge, as "graaaargh, never give up, for grimnir!! Blaaaaaaaargh" type of 'endurance'-based wardsave

[TsukeFox]

not so much dodge, as "graaaargh, never give up, for grimnir!! Blaaaaaaaargh" type of 'endurance'-based wardsave

"advance parry wardsave"
Or!
"greater doom awaits wardsave!"
6+ for troll slayers
5+for giant slayers
4+ for dragon slayers
3+ for daemon slayers

[Montegue]

not so much dodge, as "graaaargh, never give up, for grimnir!! Blaaaaaaaargh" type of 'endurance'-based wardsave

I think it's perfectly within the realm of fluff to give them a combat-skill based save (dodge or parry). Slayers don't fight to lose, and they don't wear armor, which means they better have a solid parry/dodge repetiore.

[Phazael]

11 points for a T4 unbreakable unit that has essentially two attacks and always wounding on at least 4s isn't a good deal? They are better than Flaggelents, especially at tackling monsters. Yeah they don't have an armor save, but T4 has a lot more impact than any kind of armor save they might have.

[TsukeFox]

11 points for a T4 unbreakable unit that has essentially two attacks and always wounding on at least 4s isn't a good deal? They are better than Flaggelents, especially at tackling monsters. Yeah they don't have an armor save, but T4 has a lot more impact than any kind of armor save they might have.

They die in droves buddy-
Free points most of the time and for 1/2?less points one gets a savage Orc Biggun-ward save & 3 str5 attacks on the first round.

[Phazael]

Savage Orks are good, to be sure (one of the best core units around) but they are still not unbreakable.

[TsukeFox]

Savage Orks are good, to be sure (one of the best core units around) but they are still not unbreakable.

40 of them and steadfast, a BSB bunker, & the shrunken head say different. Thus why it is called "the Savage Deathstar." no one says the same about slayers, who more often than not sit on the bench.

[Montegue]

Slayers have several serious disadvantages. First, you can only have up to 30 in any given unit. You can't take more than one unit of them unless you blow points on a Slayer hero, which can't have any defensive runes or items of any kind. So, you're already lagging behind in 8th ed, being unable to take a 40 man horde. They have no armor, so even Bow shooting will kill models despite their high toughness. No shield means no ward save in combat of any kind. A second attack only exists if you decide to use the extra hand weapon, which is only more useful than a great weapon in very few circumstances (when fighting Ironguts, for example, and you might take out enough to reduce the number of incoming attacks on their turn. Other than that, we always strike last for the most part, so you may as well grab the great axe).

Unbreakable is nice, but it's not an offensive ability. It's an ability that only comes into play when you're outgunned or out rolled.

[yabbadabba]

I have said before, but I will again

Slayers - Skirmish, Scout 6+ Ward Save (Slayer Tatts), Unit size 5-15. Warmaster Slayer points rule.
Giant Slayers - add +1 to Ward Save (needs a ratio)
Dragon Slayers - Units can drop skirmish and unit size limit
Daemon slayers - Ass Dragon Slayer plus may take Slayers as Core.

[Razakel]

Would you modify the cost of any of the slayer units? How many points of runes would dragon and daemon slayers be able to spend?

[Bikhu]

11 points for a T4 unbreakable unit that has essentially two attacks and always wounding on at least 4s isn't a good deal? They are better than Flaggelents, especially at tackling monsters. Yeah they don't have an armor save, but T4 has a lot more impact than any kind of armor save they might have.

Two str 3 attacks isn't that great, though I will admit it is not terrible. Slayers would see more action if they served a unique purpose in the army or did something distinctly different than the rest of the Dwarf infantry blocks or the Dwarf artillery. They aren't that great at monster slaying due to their low movement compared to the high movement of almost all monterous models, and it is much more effective to use cannons and organ guns anyway.

Their unbreakable characteristic is nice, but in practice one unbreakable unit isn't something that Dwarfs need very much (in my experience). Their normal blocks of infantry are already ld 9 and if you want to hold something up you can reform into more ranks for steadfast ld9 rerolls (with bsb), almost as good as unbreakable and the normal infantry block will last longer because it has armor. For 1 point less you get a dwarf with the same stat line and a great weapon (which slayers end up using most of the time anyway). You trade in unbreakable and the slayer rule for a 5+ armor save and a 1 point discount. The slayers will never flee but the great weapon warriors are more likely to win combat and not take a break test because they give up less combat res.

Slayers would be more useful if they could better capitalize on being the only Dwarf infantry unit that can get multiple attacks. Perhaps change the slayer rule to a straight +1 on to-wound roles? That way when it comes to toughness 3 blocks of infantry they could use 2hws and wound on 3's to get enough attacks to hurt. But on tougher monsterous units like orgres, trolls, etc., they can use a gw, trading in more attacks for enough strength to due some damage to those higher toughness models. This would also resolve the funky issue in which it is better to use slayer great weapons against low toughness models and 2 handweapons against higher toughness models due to the way the slayer rule works. Would a straight +1 to-wound be so much more powerful (as opposed to just being more useful) than the current slayer rule that it would require more than a 1 point price hike? Would they be anymore worth taking at 12 points with that altered slayer rule?

[Skopey]

As i said before the 3+ to wound rule would imo make slayers more killy but i think there would need to be a cap depending on the type of slayer. As i said treat trollsalyers as +1 to wound at equivalent strength(up to 6) eg counts as str5 vs T4 enemies. Just up the strength cap for each slayer type, ie; giant 7, dragon 8, daemon 9.

[The Low King]

11 points for a T4 unbreakable unit that has essentially two attacks and always wounding on at least 4s isn't a good deal? They are better than Flaggelents, especially at tackling monsters. Yeah they don't have an armor save, but T4 has a lot more impact than any kind of armor save they might have.

Really? you want me to do that maths?

1) they are not better than Flaggelents
2) T4 has much less of an impact than giving them heavy armour

[Kurnous the Hunter]

I have said before, but I will again

Slayers - Skirmish, Scout 6+ Ward Save (Slayer Tatts), Unit size 5-15. Warmaster Slayer points rule.
Giant Slayers - add +1 to Ward Save (needs a ratio)
Dragon Slayers - Units can drop skirmish and unit size limit
Daemon slayers - Ass Dragon Slayer plus may take Slayers as Core.

Perfect! Doesn't make them too good (S4 or wounds on 3+). Makes them more durable (ward + skirmish). Makes them more useful and maneuverable (skirmish).
Nice synergy between Unbreakable and Skirmish.