Challenge: Kill this list

[Leogun_91]

Checking through the Free people book (they need to release Captured people, the paralyzed hobbit models don't have any rules at the moment) I came upon the following possible army:

Durin
Tom Bombadil
Goldberry

Short of using Floi who can ignore rules, how would you deal with this, Tom can lock anything scary up and both he and goldberry can heal the extremely hard to kill Durin each turn. Durin can then pick of your models one after one until you are broken at which point Bombadil and Goldberry chose to stand next to him and make him untouchable.

So I challenge you, make a 500pts list to kill this one (thatīs 40pts over this list).

List should be included as well as a description on how it kills the unkillable.

[The Marshel]

I'm not sure what changes have been made to generic wraith profile, nor do i know the rules for tom and goldberry, but surely a couple of wraiths to shut the 3 heroes down and some hard hitting things to kill them would win out. Durin can't kill everything on his own without taking a dozens of turns and i highly doubt tom and goldberry are particularly killy. to top it off it sounds like losing even one of these heroes breaks the combo and leaves you way vulnerable. So unless there are some serious magic resistance rules embedded into all 3 of these guys, i'm going to say 2-3 wraiths, a drum and some morronnon orcs

Assuming you're playing a LOME scenario or one of the new scenarios from the sourcebooks, superior movement of all non dwarf/goblin armies should allow the opponent to simply avoid you and still earn enough victory points to win overall (be a damn boring game though)

Edit: having quickly looked over tom and goldberry's rules, i have no idea how to remove them from play, but given they can't do any actual damage to me, then its a happy little scenario of everybody hates durin. Magic him to death and be done with it

[Orphic]

Pretty sure Goldberry and Tom are just immune to harm and spells unless they've changed in new rules.

Boromir with banner
Tom
Goldberry
not sure on exact points but a higher fight value and 6 might a turn. Long game ensues

[Noobie2k7]

Lots of wraiths and maybe sauron if you can fit him in with a couple. As soon as you kill Durin then that list loses it;s win condition as far as i'm aware. So it would be 500 pts vs Durin. I'm pretty sure it would be easy enough to do him in in 1 turn with all 500pts worth targeting him with magic, shooting and melee.

[Spiney Norman]

The thing is, you don't have to kill the whole list, all you need to do is get more VP in each scenario. This force is going to be really bad at any of the objective holding scenarios because you only have 3 models, and even if you do keep healing Durin, your enemy will still get vp for wounding him. The best tactic will be to completely bog Durin down in one place with half your army and send the other half to claim objectives. No banner makes to the death almost auto-lose for this army as long as your opponent keeps his banner out of durins reach.

[Kulgur]

Both Goldberry and Tom are immune to harm and can't be charged. Tom can charge and auto wins combat (but can't do damage), Goldberry can't even charge. Both can heal up friendly characters stats.

[Leogun_91]

Lots of wraiths and maybe sauron if you can fit him in with a couple. As soon as you kill Durin then that list loses it;s win condition as far as i'm aware. So it would be 500 pts vs Durin. I'm pretty sure it would be easy enough to do him in in 1 turn with all 500pts worth targeting him with magic, shooting and melee.

As long as Tom and Goldberry is in base contact with Durin you can't touch him, so any fight is on his terms. Magic is fun for a while but he recharges two will a turn.

And for those that want to follow the missions and win....that's not the challenge, the challenge is to kill the list, ie fight it and kill stuff, I know 66% is unkillable (short of ignoring special rules which as far as I know is reserved for one character) but kill the rest.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

Just because you can't charge Tom & goldberry doesn't mean you can't trap them - they still adhere to the control zone rules as far as I'm aware so by putting a few goblins around each they're stuck. Sure, Tom could charge one if he wanted to, and it would have to retreat an inch, but they'd just be able to surround him again. Suppose you take 10 goblins, 5 assigned to each of those two, that leaves you with a chunk of points to deal with Durin. Dunno what I'd take off the top of my head, but the time-honored sap will/transfix/smack method of dealing with good heroes seems like it would work here too.

Since Tom & Goldberry can replenish his stats, you'd want to try to take him down in one turn so maybe a Castellan or the Necromancer would be a good choice.

[The Marshel]

As long as Tom and Goldberry is in base contact with Durin you can't touch him, so any fight is on his terms. Magic is fun for a while but he recharges two will a turn.

And for those that want to follow the missions and win....that's not the challenge, the challenge is to kill the list, ie fight it and kill stuff, I know 66% is unkillable (short of ignoring special rules which as far as I know is reserved for one character) but kill the rest.

tom and goldberry's ability are magic powers, so they can fail, and besides that, take the undying, who gets +1 will for each power cast near him, so you can heal him all day, but i can transfix him all day too.

and you can't simply ignore the fact that the game has objectives. if the challenge is simply to kill the list then you win because goldbery and tom can't technically be killed. So you dont really need durin now do you. Besides that, the objective of the game is to win, and most games wont require me to kill you, so i'm perfectly content to win without beating this particularly pointless challenge.

[Vishok]

This list is no where near unkillable. Sorry.

[lotrchampion]

This list is no where near unkillable. Sorry.

This...

and you can't simply ignore the fact that the game has objectives. if the challenge is simply to kill the list then you win because goldbery and tom can't technically be killed. So you dont really need durin now do you. Besides that, the objective of the game is to win, and most games wont require me to kill you, so i'm perfectly content to win without beating this particularly pointless challenge.

And this. If you're giving me 500pts to spend on enough stuff to kill Durin in a turn, I'll do so happily. A few Ringwraiths to compel Durin out of position, let's say 3, all on Fellbeast. 9 attacks to win the fight vs 1 at FV1, then 18 attacks wounding on 6s, with Might points across all of them, needing to cause 4 wounds to guarantee killing him. I then spend the rest of the game ignoring you, and win. Could probably squeeze in a Banner just to get extra VPs in To The Death, and some chaff to tie up Goldberry and Tom by trapping them. Makes Domination a cinch as well. I'd then win Lords of Battle since you then can't kill anything, and Hold Ground due to you having 2 models that can't kill anything, and me having more. Recon...3 Ringwraiths on FB run off your board having killed Durin, and you can't win. And for the High Ground, it's the same story as Hold Ground.

Stick on top of that the fact that, if we're playing tounament rules, Tom and Goldberry aren't allowed.

Anyway, you asked for my list...

Ringwraith w/ +2/+3/+2 w/ Fellbeast
10 Orcs
1 Orc w/ Banner

Ringwraith w/ +2/+3/+2 w/ Fellbeast

Ringwraith w/ +2/+3/+2 w/ Fellbeast

That'll do it happily.

[Sindamar]

I have to agree with Vishok, this list is not unkillable. There are ways to kill all three models. However, this is based on some assumptions, but they seem to work. First, I am assuming that the use of Floi involves neutralising Tom's "Tom is Master" rule, followed by wounding him/ otherwise getting him with some other ability, which, seeing as he has no stat line, causes him to be removed as a casualty as you can't prove he survives? (You can't prove he has more than 1 Wound, or any Might, or Fate.) And then doing the same to Goldberry? On this basis, there are ways to eliminate both Tom & Goldberry. However, they are very specific, requiring certain models & situations in order to work. They will. in all probability, not work if your opponent has any idea what you are up to in advance. Therefore as a player in my local store has proposed using a similar list (Saruman, Gandalf, Tom & Goldberry) I am somewhat loathe to go into any detail!
As a more general point, overloading the combination with magic should work, at least to kill Durin. I'd pick the Dwimmerlaik to start with. If he's within 12" of a model, on a roll of 4-6 it costs 2 Will to cast a spell, and both Tom & Goldberry only get 1 each a turn. This means that, as these abilities are cast on a 2+, less than one of them, on average, will be successfully be cast a turn. This will reduce the ammount of healing & stat repair that Durin can receive, making him far easier to kill. Additionally, Goldberry cannot enter an evil model's control zone, so she can be trapped and contained by any cheap evil models, leaving just Tom free to roam. And both Tom's and Goldberry's healing abilities have 12" ranges. If Durin is beyond, or made to move beyond, this range, he is again more vulnerable.
Then again, killing one model with a 500pt army isn't really a challenge is it? This army would be a pain to play against with a normal army, but it'd be useless in most of the scenarios, its not very maneuverable, it has too few models to win objective-based missions, and has no banner. It might even manage to lose "Lords of Battle" against an opponent who used tactics to keep wounding Durin, thus scoring VPs, without allowing him to get into enough combat to score enough himself. With that in mind, if I was going to a tournament, for example, I'd select my armies on the basis of what I think would work best for me, and the scenarios, rather than try to pick one to stop a list like this... And if I did meet one, I'd try to achieve the objectives, whilst killing all the non-Maiar models.
Sorry for being cryptic, but if I can work it out, so can others

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

I have to agree with Vishok, this list is not unkillable. There are ways to kill all three models. However, this is based on some assumptions, but they seem to work. First, I am assuming that the use of Floi involves neutralising Tom's "Tom is Master" rule, followed by wounding him/ otherwise getting him with some other ability, which, seeing as he has no stat line, causes him to be removed as a casualty as you can't prove he survives? (You can't prove he has more than 1 Wound, or any Might, or Fate.)

By similar logic, you also can't prove that Tom and Goldberry have fewer than 10 wounds, or 100 wounds. Obviously part of the issue is that they were released long, long before Floi's special rule had even been thought of, but even by negating the special rule "Tom is Master" there's no defense stat to wound against, and an indeterminate number of wounds to deal. Even without the rule I think he's unkillable.

[Sindamar]

On pages 12, 23 and 28 of the rulebook it specifies that most man-sized figures have 1 wound with "some heroes" having more, but that implies that some heroes don't (which is the case if you look at the stat-lines), and no physical stat for anything exceeds 10 in the whole game, Strength, Defence, Wounds etc. (Yes, I do know about the Necromancer's & the Ringwraiths' Wills, but that's not a physical stat) That implies that, at most, Tom could be all 10s, but he could equally well be all 1s. The whole point is that if you are able to subject either Tom or Goldberry to an attack they don't have a stat-line at all. It is impossible to just shrug it off & say they're fine, because you can't tell. The rules are supposed to ensure that they don't need a stat-line, but without one you can't tell if they are alive or dead if they're attacked and could have suffered a wound. And you don't need to invoke Floi either, it is possible to potentially wound both Tom & Goldberry without using him. It's just... difficult to arrange the circumstances.
The question then becomes, what happens now? Taking using Floi, as I'm loathe to explain the other circumstances, what happens if his power is neutralised, and he's shot by a dwarf archer? Or hit by a throwing axe? Or a spell? (Assuming he's already used his free point of Will that turn) Or if he's engaged in combat - whats his fight value? His number of attacks? If something actually could have wounded him, can he make a Fate roll? Does he even have Fate points? Or Might? Or Will?
There are no official answers currently, but, going by page 12, a man-sized model, on average, has 1 Wound, Fight 3/4+, Strength 3, Defense 3 (unarmoured), 1 Attack, and a Courage of 3. So, if I was to be pedantic and invoke the dreaded "Rules As Written", wouldn't this be their default physical stat-line? Neither Tom or Goldberry use Might, not all heroes have Fate (and no-one has more than 3), and they have 1 Will per turn, so that leads to 0/1 per Turn/0-3. Looking at Fate, however, both Tom & Goldberry are Maiar, and the only other Maiar have 0 Fate (Sauron/Balrog), so it could be argued that it should be 0/1 per turn/0.
That doesn't sound like it'd be hard to kill, does it? Even with 3 Fate, it'd be just a matter of time, if you concentrated on killing them.
Personally. I'd like a stat-line for them, even if it is overpowered, just to remove the ambiguity...
And then I could see if I could still kill them

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

The whole point is that if you are able to subject either Tom or Goldberry to an attack they don't have a stat-line at all. It is impossible to just shrug it off & say they're fine, because you can't tell.

This is the crux of the issue, really. It's impossible to just shrug it off, and it's equally impossible to assume how you get to fill their stat line in. As you mention, this is an area that's just not covered by the rules, and there is no answer to the question.

You negate their special rule, but their stat line is still all "?'s". From there there's no more reason to assume that they have an average human stat line than to assume that they have 10's across the board. They're not average humans, so using average human stats as a baseline doesn't make sense (to me, anyways).

Ultimately I think my call would be that, since there's no reasonable way to fill in their stat line, even though their special rule has been negated they still can't be injured because there's no defense stat for comparison or wound stat to be deducted from. Other aspects of the special rule might go away, such as always winning a fight, because I'd also argue that with no fight characteristic he can't fight, and therefore can't win. Negating his special rule would basically make him useless, as everything he can do is based on that.

Regarding maiar and fate - all 3 wizards have 3 Fate, right? But then to my knowledge Tolkien avoided saying that they were maiar either, so that comparison might not work anyways.

And you don't need to invoke Floi either, it is possible to potentially wound both Tom & Goldberry without using him. It's just... difficult to arrange the circumstances.

Haha, now you've got me curious! I understand that you don't want to give away your strategy in case your opponent sees it here, but would you shoot me a PM? I've been thinking about this, and still haven't been able to come up with anything.

going by page 12, a man-sized model, on average, has 1 Wound, Fight 3/4+, Strength 3, Defense 3 (unarmoured), 1 Attack, and a Courage of 3. So, if I was to be pedantic and invoke the dreaded "Rules As Written", wouldn't this be their default physical stat-line?

I don't think so, but that's because I don't think the passage on page 12 is a rule. It's a descriptive bit to familiarize players with the game and the stat line. And it's an erroneous one, at that, since many man-sized models don't fit the "average" stat line. They ought to have said "humans" since elves, dwarves, goblins, and uruk-hai as races break the mold.

Mch as I hate to take on that role, I think the pedantic "Rules As Written" answer is what I said above - that even though you took away their special rule, their stat line is still blank and you can't compare a number to a question mark to cause a wound, and therefore can't wound them.

I'd like a stat-line for them, even if it is overpowered, just to remove the ambiguity...

Yeah, the new source books were a bit of a missed opportunity for that, since at that point Floi had been introduced and their special abilities could, feasibly, be negated. Maybe they didn't bother because thematically, it's a non-issue? Who knows.

At the end of the day though, since this is something not covered by the rules, it's up to the two players at the table to agree on how they're going to handle it. I'm not saying you can't give him a base human stat line, or that it would necessarily be wrong, because I don't think there's a "right" way to do it. If your opponent is OK with you filling in the stats, then go for it. Provides both of you with an extra challenge (you can actually attempt to kill them, and he has to worry about keeping them alive) and probably a more interesting battle.

[Sindamar]

Thanks for the comments, I’ll pm you some ideas in a minute! Sorry for not replying sooner, I’ve been a bit busy recently.
Anyway, I think the problem arises from the wording of Tom & Goldberrys’ special rules. The whole “cannot be harmed by ranged attacks” implies to me that they can be harmed, just not by ranged attacks (which they then define as meaning magic and missiles). Thus the questions arise of a) given their rules on control zones, how can they be hit; and b) what stat line do you give them in order to see if you can wound them (Defence), and how many wounds can they take?
If they are supposed to be impossible to harm, why couldn’t they have just said “cannot be harmed in any way” instead? It would have been quick, simple, and, above all, clear. It’s not just a theoretical point either, given the newly decreased scope of their powers (reduced effectiveness of spells, and shortened ranges), and increased points costs, they seem designed for use in scenarios, points matches, and possibly tournaments. Their increased cost, and reduced effectiveness should make an army containing just Tom, or both of them, somewhat easier to handle than before, but I can see a problem... The new scenarios are won in two ways: by victory points; or by annihilation of the other side. But if you are facing an opponent using these characters you cannot win by wiping out the other side, leaving every battle decided by victory points alone, which could make some scenarios nigh on unwinnable. (For example, a horde army facing an elite hero army, containing Tom and Goldberry, playing “Lords of Battle”. The horde army might well wipe out the rest of the heroes, but give away too many points in the process to be able to win without wounding, or eliminating, the indestructible duo.) Some of their other special rules should also make them especially useful in some of the other scenarios, their control zones being used to block enemy models (or shield their own), their courage test effects, and ability to heal stats on other heroes.
It would therefore be nice to know what their stat-lines are, so that, if you are facing such a situation, you can at least try to deal with them. If you can see a way. And if you can accomplish it.
As to a stat-line, in the absence of one defined by GW, there are two ways to go, the best case scenario, which I covered in my last post, and then there’s the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario assumes that they are as tough as old boots, and have sky-high stats...
Fight 10 (maximum, matches that of the Balrog), Strength 10 (maximum), Defence 10 (the maximum (see siege weapon rules, more than 10 would be worse than 10!) and matches Sauron), Attacks 10 (maximum I think), Wounds 10 (matches the Balrog), Courage 10 (maximum, and guarantees passing all tests even with -1), Might 0 (they don’t ever use it), Will 1 per turn (they may have more but it’s all they can expend), and Fate 3 (no-one has more than 3). Oh, and I assume that they can use that free point of Will each turn as a Fate point like the Necromancer etc, if they haven’t already used it that turn.
Both Wounds and Attacks could be more than 10, but I doubt they’d have more Wounds than the Balrog, and the number of Attacks they have is, actually, fairly irrelevant.
I would argue that if you can take either one of them to 0 Wounds, having granted them that stat-line, they should be dead. And it’s hard to see otherwise, as there is no higher defence than 10 etc.
That raises the point, can I come up with ways to kill them, even with these stats, and their rules? Yep. But it’s extremely hard. Even if you assume they have infinite wounds, and Attacks, you can still kill Goldberry(with certain things), but Tom’s hard to get, even at 10, and requires specific models.

P.S. In case anyone doesn’t believe that they can be wounded, I’ll give one example... (I have lots of others, but, as I wrote before, I need to be discrete ) Tom is being used in a game in a mixed force. The other side is using a force containing ringwraiths. One of Tom’s sides heroes is transfixed, and then charged by the Tainted. Tom then charges the Tainted to save said hero. At the start of the fight phase, before Tom wins automatically, the player controlling the Tainted rolls a dice, gets a 6, and every model in 1” of the Tainted takes a wound... Including Tom.

[Peregrin]

Personally, I feel the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law should apply in this case.
In other words, it seems clear to me that the designers' intention was to have them unable to be harmed. That's how it should be played, regardless of Floi, etc.

This is, of course, simply my opinion.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

I think I'd still rule them as untouchable, but as with Peregrin that's a "spirit of the rule" rather than "letter of the rule" to me, since this scenario can't strictly be handled by the letter of the rules.

Still, at least from a competitive point of view, the lack of a statline while still having a couple of loopholes that allow you to potentially hit and wound either one is an oversight, and your aforementioned wording flat-out stating that they cannot be killed would be more sensible (although I think the most sensible solution would have been for GW to not even assign them point values, as they're really very scenario-specific characters).

Will PM you when I have some more time regarding your strategies - they looked very interesting and I'll be interested to hear how it goes when you guys have your game.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

Oops, double post. Sorry.

[Dr Grant]

I come down completely on the 'can't be killed' side of the fence. It's clearly the intention of the designers for them not to be killed, hence their lack of profile. The fact that there may be a couple of extremely complicated loopholes that work around the wording of their paragraph doesn't change that. If they don't have a Defence and a Wounds value then you can't wound them, you simply don't know what you need to roll and it's not up to the player to arbitrarily decide what their profile should be based on other characters from the range.

I understand that this is very much the 'spirit of the rules' rather than fact but, in my opinion, it's what the writers intended. Granted they could have made it clearer by writing 'cannot be harmed under any circumstances' or something but I think they thought the lack of profile and fairly clear rules would be enough to convince most players. Obviously not though :-)

Just my 2 cents.