Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Khorne teams

[zerodemon]

REVISION UPLOADED 17/03/2012 : The 5 teams are ready for Dungeonbowl Testing. Pretty happy with them as they are. Time to kick off!

I was personally a fan of the old Forgotten Chaos Teams article, but found the teams to be unbalanced and unplayable. There were inconsistencies with what I saw as the Blood Bowl universe (steeds and dogs as players?) and, though the costing was understandable, it didn't make for logical team selection. Many players had negative skills as a way to "pay for" the positive ones and, after playing a league with the 3 new teams involved, our group decided to fix it.

(As a side note, visit the document and see how god-awful the spelling and editing is. The SG team really weren't making an effort obviously. Further to this, read his blurb at the bottom which reveals he is a) a new Blood Bowl coach and b) yet to use any of the teams he has created. Good times.)

It's been three years since we did that, and now I've come back to it (thanks to a prodding post by InForThePain.)

What you see here is a pdf containing the v.2 rules we will be playtesting over the next month. Once that month is up, we'll make amendments and give them another whirl as we try to nail them down. We're aiming to make them Tier 2 teams.

If you have some spare time and a willing opponent, please try out the rules and give us some feedback, keeping in mind that these are being playtested, and aren't finished rules yet. Amendments will be made over the next month via this OP, so keep an eye on it.

Amend: Added in to the document are the Amazon (houserule) and Beastman teams. The Amazon team has some specific reasoning behind the changes to the LRB6 rules, and was thoroughly tested during our 2011 Blood Bowl season. It brought the Amazon team down a peg (which they needed in our opinion) making them more fun to play, more interesting to play against and finally more fluffy to play a season with.

The increase in AV for Blitzers as well as the vast number of profile changes have simple reasoning. A flatline 6337 stat across the whole team is boring, where relying only on skill differences to separate players seems lazy. They've been brought in line with the human team somewhat, to make the players more diverse. The key difference is the removal of General skill access to all players...

Why? Amazon teams are not meant to be bashy. People grab Block-Dodge on every player at only 6SPP, which is clearly overpowered. Blitzers start this way still, which is fine by me.

Follow the link for the downloadable PDF.

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/812...c5ax03zegist1l

[korinth]

Looks great, as hinted in the previous thread!

I have a few of suggestions:

- Display the random mutation table along with the random mutation skill.
- The somewhat ironic tone of blood bowl may allow for pun skill names like Horror Split Personality, which might also suggest there are two possibly different smaller horrors coming out (which may be rolled from personality chart), adding to the randomness of that team.
- Allow 0-16 player for all division/split personality in the rooster, markup the cost with some asterisk to explain they cannot be purchased, or that they cost double if purchased.

What do you think?

[zerodemon]

Seems like a more logical construction for the new skill list, I agree. Also, the teams will fit better on one page (not important but hey-ho.)

@Korinth Horror Split Personality is a great name. Will have to add it to the revision down the line. The OP has some better description for Horror issues now.

@InForThePain & @Korinth maybe 3 personalities for Blue Horrors would be good. When you choose to divide them roll a D3

1-2 Angry Horror 6 2 3 7 Frenzy, Animosity, Stunty GS A
3-4 Scaredy Horror 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Animosity, Stunty GA P
5-6 Helpful Horror 6 2 3 7 Guard, Stunty, Really Stupid G APS

@Garion The Sorcerer seems well overpowered (essentially having a Team-Wizard on the pitch) while also having dividing Horrors as your standard 0-16 choice means you'll never be in any danger of being low on numbers.

Your Khorne team seems to be less dangerous than a standard Chaos team, where it should be able to pack at least an equal punch. I say this because your 0-16 choice is Adepts, where it should probably just be Beastmen, who have the same statline, but with horns.

I like the exalted minotaurs of Khorne and Slaanesh, but modern rules give them all Loner. An exalted minotaur would be even more of a loner.

Why does the Slaanesh one have regenerate? Not a criticism. Just a question.

In a way, I like the design idea you have. It's very minimalist. I just feel that, besides an overpowered wizard player (banned by the NAF by the way, so would certainly have Secret Weapon) and some daemon players, they don't represent the individual powers as well as the Nurgle team does, with it's Decay and Nurgle's Rot mechanics, instead opting to be close approximations of the Chaos team.

@Everyone The Slaanesh team is the one I think needs most work. Other than the Spawn of Slaanesh, I'm not keen on the Disturbing Presence racial attribute. I feel it's a bit of a cop out, where both Tzeentch and Khorne will probably work fine, and seem very unique. Any ideas? I might swap out the Cultist for this. Making him/her skill-less seems logical to me.

0-16 Cultist 50,000 6 3 3 8 None GMAP S

Also had the brainstorm of making the Slaanesh team in to a Dark Elf cult of Slaanesh, instead of boring old human.

For those interested, the OP document has had an update, for clarity's sake. The Dark Elf Slaanesh team is now in this document alongside some clarifications on Horror Division (now known as Horror Split Personality) and some changes to the existing Slaanesh team. Give it a look.

[korinth]

maybe 3 personalities for Blue Horrors would be good. When you choose to divide them roll a D3

1-2 Angry Horror 6 2 3 7 Frenzy, Animosity, Stunty GS A
3-4 Scaredy Horror 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Animosity, Stunty GA P
5-6 Helpful Horror 6 2 3 7 Guard, Stunty, Really Stupid G APS

Yes, I think not many more than 3 resulting types of players is a good randomness, but I think 2 bonus skills might work as they depend on other players to use them. Something along these lines:

1-2 Mad Horror 6 3 3 6 Frenzy, Mighty Blow, Animosity, Stunty S P
3-4 Unsettled Horror 6 2 4 6 Dodge, Sidestep, Animosity, Stunty A P
5-6 Benign Horror 7 2 3 6 Guard, Fend, Stunty, Animosity G P

Note that I lowered their AV and lessened their choice of skill upgrades while upping their main stat by one. I don't think these should be long term players with many MVPs that might be too good. Either way I think this is what is going to be hardest to play test. Firstly there isn't so many deaths per match, so that has to be simulated in order to test the actual in-league-status of the team.

I also think animosity for the lot, they probably only play well with other horrors.

EDIT:
I'd like to see some conversions for these teams! I'd almost like to have minis for a Tzeentch team, even though I haven't time enough to play my Dark Elves as often as I'd like to.

[Garion]

Seems like a more logical construction for the new skill list, I agree. Also, the teams will fit better on one page (not important but hey-ho.)

@Garion The Sorcerer seems well overpowered (essentially having a Team-Wizard on the pitch) while also having dividing Horrors as your standard 0-16 choice means you'll never be in any danger of being low on numbers.

Your Khorne team seems to be less dangerous than a standard Chaos team, where it should be able to pack at least an equal punch. I say this because your 0-16 choice is Adepts, where it should probably just be Beastmen, who have the same statline, but with horns.

I like the exalted minotaurs of Khorne and Slaanesh, but modern rules give them all Loner. An exalted minotaur would be even more of a loner.

Why does the Slaanesh one have regenerate? Not a criticism. Just a question.

In a way, I like the design idea you have. It's very minimalist. I just feel that, besides an overpowered wizard player (banned by the NAF by the way, so would certainly have Secret Weapon) and some daemon players, they don't represent the individual powers as well as the Nurgle team does, with it's Decay and Nurgle's Rot mechanics, instead opting to be close approximations of the Chaos team.

Yeah you missunderstand, he is a bombadier not wizard. He is quite unreliable at it too. the reason he is so expensive is ma8 is gold dust in a chaos team, more so than that the bomb perk.

Khorne are awesome btw, they may look weaker on paper, but horns frenzy on st4 means you get St5 blitzes, (two assists for 3 dice blocks).

Yes the big guys are meant to have loner, that was just a typo.

also pink horros turning into blue horrors only happens if they die, not injuries, so it doesnt happen that often. But its great fun.

Finally yeah slaanesh gets regen on its big guy, as it fits the fluff better

[Inforthepain]

Nice to see i made an impact I like the idea of making these teams more "playable" and removing those non-bloodbowl characters. As a coach would I never field a freaking pony and expect it to do something usefull (hamburgers any1?).

Btw you were gonna playtest the "skaven deathroller thingy" at the same time, right? Keep us updated on your thoughts about it aswell.

@Korinth
Horror Split Personality xD damn nice skill name (I love puns). Did you mean personality chart like "agressive horror" with acess to some more offensive/killing skills, "Scared horror" more survive skills like fend sidestep dodge, "friendly horror" (that sounded wrong) more like assist with guard or something?

[korinth]

Did you mean personality chart like "agressive horror" with acess to some more offensive/killing skills, "Scared horror" more survive skills like fend sidestep dodge, "friendly horror" (that sounded wrong) more like assist with guard or something?

I think it may be open for those who actually have time to play test this, but I see two different paths for this idea.

Either the original Horror is the main player, and the split personalities are just bonus players in a team that expects many casualties, or the original Horror is intentionally weaker in design, so that the splits are actually what one is aiming for. This will cause coaches to try to compromise the originals with weaker block rolls in hope for that random outcome.

I think personalities should be some extreme moods, like those you mention, but I also think it might be important to keep them Stunty and low ST not to over power the team.

Some skills I'd like to see for personalities (except Stunty):

Dauntless
Mighty Blow
Frenzy
Side step
Fend
Dodge
Shadowing
Sprint

[Garion]

here are some that have been playtested for the current rules.

Enjoy

Slaanesh
0-16 Beastmen 60,000 6 3 3 8 Horns GS MAP
0-4 Chaos Warriors 100,000 5 4 3 9 GS MAP
0-4 Daemonettes 80,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Claw GM PAS
0-1 Exalted Minotaur of Slaanesh 150,000 5 5 2 8 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Horns, Wild Animal, Frenzy S MPAG
(can have a maximum of 4 Chaos Warriors and Daemonettes in total)

Khorne
0-16 Adepts 50,000 6 3 3 8 GS APM
0-4 Beastmen 60,000 6 3 3 8 Horns GS APM
0-4 Chaos Warriors 100,000 5 4 3 9 GS APM
0-4 Bloodletters 110,000 5 4 2 8 Horns, Frenzy SG APM
0-1 Exalted Minotaur of Khorne 150,000 5 5 2 8 Horns, Frenzy, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Wild Animal S GAPM
Re-roll counter 60,000 gold pieces each
Apothecary Yes
(can have a maximum of 4 Chaos Warriors and Bloodletters in total)


Tzeentch
0-16 Pink Horror 60,000 6 3 3 8 GSM AP
0-4 Beastmen 60,000 6 3 3 8 Horns GSM PA
0-4 Chaos Warriors 100,000 5 4 3 9 GSM AP
0-1 Sorcerer of Tzeentch 140,000 8 3 3 8 Fireball (bombadier without secret weapon) GAM SP
* Blue Horrors 40k (tv cost only cant buy them) 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff AM
(when a Pink Horror dies you get 2 Blue Horrors)

and of course nurgle already have a team

[Inforthepain]

Hai again!

About the wizard, (not sure if Garion edited his text or if you missed what he wrote) the Fireball skill isnt a "wizard" fireball, its a "bomb goblin kinda thingy".

Imo the delf idea sounds great. Delf also kinda fit into the Slaanes lore.

@Garion: why no loner on big guys? And isnt 140k kinda alot for a bombardier (in 3 out of 4 games with gobbos have my bomby caused casulty on his own team, not including he killed himself twice) but without secret wepon it might be worth that price (well I wouldnt pay for it, he always end up dead anyway).

@Zerodemon:
About Slaanesh racial. I understand it will be one of the trickyer to figure out but I think its important not to lean to much the elf way (figure thats what the Slaanesh delf team is kinda there for), as a chaos team they would be more focused bashing or a mix of bashing and short passing/running.

The cultist kinda fits with the 6 3 3 8 none, as they are kinda of a sacrefice to the dark gods (qoute from DoW).




Keep up the good work!

[zerodemon]

@Garion Oh yeah! I would love to have Horns, Frenzy, S4 from the get go! I could Blitz Minotaurs with one assist for a 2 dice block. Brilliant! I have one warrior like this on the Blood Bowl computer game in fact. In your team, I wouldn't even take Chaos Warriors, in fact. There would be no point. I don't use Chaos Warriors as ball carriers, so I could do with the AG3 (since I have Beastmen) and the AV 9 only gives the opponent an extra 1/13 chance of breaking armour. I like those odds. I will kill every enemy team in two turns, which is very characterful for Khorne, but, sadly, only other Khorne players will want to play me. Imagine when all 4 of them very swiftly get upgrades by killing swathes of the enemy. I could give them Mighty Blow and Grab! Coupled with Frenzy anybody that doesn't go down to my mighty blitzes can be manoeuvred in to a favourable block position or pushed in to the crowd. They're too powerful as starting players.

By the way, this isn't actually a criticism of you. You'll see that our Bloodletters are exactly the same. We identified this last night in our very first playtest game. In response, we're knocking them down to ST3 AV8 and boosting to MA6. This, however makes them too similar to Beastmen (with lower AG) and therefore untenable.

I call this "The Bloodletter Quandary." I know how to solve it. Since they are too similar to Khorngor, we can do one of two things. We can remove them from the team altogether, or make them super special somehow. We came up with a nice middle-ground. See the PDF attached the the OP with the replacement roster. No more Bloodletters (boo hoo) but a lovely chainsaw player as 0-2. That's pretty Khornate right?

The players work great. Not overpowered, limited in a starting team by their "Secret Weapon" rule, and fluffy. We put together two plastic bloodletters with chainsaws last night (using the playtest models) by whacking chopped up ork chainswords and shootas stuck together on to them. Great fun. The list also allows those with a Bloodletter fetish to put their whole team together as Bloodletters (BL as Beastmen, Armoured BL as Warriors, Chainsaw BL as Psychopaths and some giant Herald as a Minotaur.)

The Sorcerer can throw a bomb every turn for the whole game. He will never get sent off and he has MA8. His AV isn't shabby either.

Goblin teams have bombadiers because they are weak ST-wise except for the trolls (which only work 1/2 the time.) A bombadier gives them cage busting ability. You'll note that pogoers and even looneys and chainsaw gobbos have cage assaulting functions too. A chaos team doesn't need that. On your team, you have 4 beastmen and 4 warriors capable of cage assault. Even Horrors would be fine for it against everyone but Black Orcs, Warriors and Dwarves. The Sorcerer, even at his price, and especially without Secret Weapon, is overkill. He'd perhaps make a nice Star Player for inducement.

Still doesn't get us around the background issue that wizards aren't allowed to play Blood Bowl though.

[Garion]

@Garion Oh yeah! I would love to have Horns, Frenzy, S4 from the get go! I could Blitz Minotaurs with one assist for a 2 dice block. Brilliant! I have one warrior like this on the Blood Bowl computer game in fact. In your team, I wouldn't even take Chaos Warriors, in fact. There would be no point. I don't use Chaos Warriors as ball carriers, so I could do with the AG3 (since I have Beastmen) and the AV 9 only gives the opponent an extra 1/13 chance of breaking armour. I like those odds. I will kill every enemy team in two turns, which is very characterful for Khorne, but, sadly, only other Khorne players will want to play me. Imagine when all 4 of them very swiftly get upgrades by killing swathes of the enemy. I could give them Mighty Blow and Grab! Coupled with Frenzy anybody that doesn't go down to my mighty blitzes can be manoeuvred in to a favourable block position or pushed in to the crowd. They're too powerful as starting players.

You cant have Grab on frenzy players, that is illegal and in play testing this roster isnt all that powerful yes they have more killing ability but like chaos they still have that 1 in 9 chance of failing a block everyturn, and with theh added amount of blocks you get with frenzy khorne typically turn over a lot more often than normal Chaos. Which is a big problem. Av8 also makes them alot easier to KO+ The limited play testing they have gone through would suggest that the best roster is actually 2 bloodletters and two chaos warriors. Also the khorne team are limited in the number of beastmen they can have, making their roster weaker.

Again the Sorcerer is good yes, but he is just one player, and he is not too hard to hurt, nor pin down, he is typically used as a back field sweeper, but bombs are not very reliable with ag3 players, especially when you are throwing a short pass most of the time. 4+ bombs yuck. He often hurts himself or his team more than he hurts the opponent. His real advantage is Ma8.
yeah they have a wizard, but meh, who cares about that.
They are actually the weakest performing out of all 3, Also I forgot to put it on, but pink horrors are meant to have decay. To represent their temporal (if thats the right word :S ) instability. The best performing are the slaanesh, the Daemonnettes are a huge help for low TV Chaos teams.

But anyway, use them or dont, but these rosters have been used for a long long time, and been through many editions of the game. just slightly changed over the years to fit each ruleset.

edit: I also I forgot to post the beastman team -

0-16 Gor 60,000 6 3 3 8 Horns G S M
0-4 Ungor 60,000 7 2 3 8 Dodge G A M
0-4 Bestigor 90,000 6 4 3 8 Horns G S M
0-1 Minotaur 150,000 5 4 1 8 Horns, Frenzy, Mighty Blow, Wild Animal, Loner, Thick Skull S M
Re-roll counter 60,000 gold pieces each
Apothecary yes

[Inforthepain]

Yay chainsaws ^^ sadly I think my friends wont let me play this team, atleast not after the "cainsaw incident". My gobbo team hired the chainsaw swinging star Gnobbla blackwart and bought a magic play card = another chainsaw ^^ spent first half chopping up his elf team.

Back to Khorne, I think chainsaws suit Khorne pretty well. More blood on the pitch. Got any pic on how those 2 Psychopaths looks like?

About StarPlayers, why scrappa sorehead? And who is Thrud? Thrud as Thrud the barbarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrud_the_Barbarian )? ^^

[zerodemon]

They have the same Star Players as standard Chaos teams.

Did you just ask who Thrud is? Sir, you are missing out on a universe of wonder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrud_the_Barbarian

Nobody should be upset when a Goblin team chops up another team. It's only ever cause for celebration.

[Inforthepain]

Hehe just found him

btw think you could scratch the pogogobbo from your pdf ^^

[zerodemon]

Ah, I forgot about the Grab/Frenzy rule. It's a minor thing and the point doesn't turn on it, however. The issues with the team come from conception and will be an issue in a new starter league that is set only to get worse due to the flexibility of Beastmen. It makes the team too powerful. Only 3 of the possible 36 combos of two dice blocks will result in the blocking player going down. This is a 1/12 chance. Giving them Block reduces this to 1/36. This is what makes Chaos Warriors effective line players. Giving one of them Horns is something I always do, because it makes them capable of easily bringing down Big Guys with only one assist.

Granting a team up to 4 of these players, then also granting them frenzy is too much. At only 6SPP with Block, these players become obscene. I know this because it was immediately an issue only last night, in one of the 3 Khorne team games we played (where we added 4 skill-boosted players at 6SPP.)

Your statement of having an easy to pin down an MA8 bombadier is false. His movement of 8 and ability to throw short passes at no AG penalty on a 4+ makes him as dangerous as any other bombadier. Slap him behind the front line on turn 1 and he is only a danger to himself on a fumbled roll of 1, which you would use a reroll on. Against most players who get placed on the line (usually AG3) it's a 6 to intercept the bomb to throw back. Those are also small odds and worth the risk.

Don't forget that a missed throw with a bomb won't scatter far and will still explode. Also note that only fumbles and active players going down will cause a turnover.

With a speed of 8, the Sorcerer player will easily be able to stay out of the reach of enemy player on even the faster Skaven and Elf teams, especially considering he will have blown up the players nearest to him and the others will then have to dodge past of knock down often stronger players to reach him on a team that will undoubtedly have superior numbers (we all know how good Chaos teams are at killing people.)

These concerns aside, I'll run a playtest game with the Sorcerer next Saturday, since that's only fair. Shouldn't go flinging around theoretical issues without testing them practically. Experience with slower, weaker Goblin Bombadiers knocking over whole cages aside, I should reserve judgement.

I like the Beastman team by the way. Nice construction. Is the Minotaur profile a mistake? Low ST for a Mino. I'd probably consider upping the price of the Bestigor somewhat or swapping the +1ST for Block. A +1 ST increase raises a players value by 50,000 in game. Black Orcs pay heavily in both MA and AG to have the low cost alongside a ST increase and start unskilled. Even then, they should probably cost more. The Bestigor is better than a Black Orc here (high speed, decent agility, high strength, average armour and horns to boot.)

[Garion]

Ah, I forgot about the Grab/Frenzy rule. It's a minor thing and the point doesn't turn on it, however. The issues with the team come from conception and will be an issue in a new starter league that is set only to get worse due to the flexibility of Beastmen. It makes the team too powerful. Only 3 of the possible 36 combos of two dice blocks will result in the blocking player going down. This is a 1/12 chance. Giving them Block reduces this to 1/36. This is what makes Chaos Warriors effective line players. Giving one of them Horns is something I always do, because it makes them capable of easily bringing down Big Guys with only one assist.

Granting a team up to 4 of these players, then also granting them frenzy is too much. At only 6SPP with Block, these players become obscene. I know this because it was immediately an issue only last night, in one of the 3 Khorne team games we played (where we added 4 skill-boosted players at 6SPP.)

it is a 1 in 9 chance 4 in 36. Which means you will turn over 11.1* percent of time. This is not good. Add to that the Bloodletters only have av8 which is fairly squishy believe me there is nothing overpowered about that roster. Ag2 also means skilling those players up will be far harder, as scoring will be more difficult than it is with CWs. This roster has played over 100 games throughout the different editions although it has differed slightly over the years and the big guy has been toned down from something that was too good. Basing your opinion on the back of one game is very risky, especially in a game so heavily influenced by dice and by the racial tiers system.

4 frenzy players in one team is often thought to be a hinderance as well, hence the reason most people take 2 Cws and 2 Bloodletters now. A good opponent will be able to force the Bloodletters to block in situations that will be detrimental to them, e.g. if the first block is pushes then the second block becomes 1 dice etc...

Also dont forget that you only get 4 beastmen in this roster, so it is not as powerful as the standard chaos one in that regard.

Again Tzeentch suffer from this problem. Also the Bombadier cant throw bombs and move in the same turn. Typically you will leave a gap between your front line of defence and you bombadier and your opponent will more often than not be occupying the squares one space away from them, this means your bomb will be throwing 4 squares minimum in their turn which is a short pass (page 12 of the rules) 4+. It is a nice weapon, but being over reliant on it is a mistake and many a time have players in their own team been blown up from this.

As I said, I would recommend giving them a good play test first because these rosters really arent great and have been played alot.

Beastmen - Yeah the mino is a typo. The bestigors price is worked out using the offical pricing guide that the teams in CRP were created with so yes his price is correct. I will try and find the link for that and post it, I have forgotten where it is at the moment.

Im just trying to help because at the moment the link at the top of the page the teams are too good imo.

if you want to talk to people that know more about this sort of thing, I recommend you post on TFF - http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/index.php the home of bloodbowl chat, I would be very suprised if you didnt get a similar response to them there from the vast majority really. (that response being the rosters are a bit broken)

But good luck and I hope to hear more from the play testing.

Sounds like a fun group.

[korinth]

Some suspicions

I think the Slaneesh Dark Elf hybrid is to powerful. It's basically the one of best player in the game on drugs (by access to mutations) and with 4 available spots. If you intend to make a Dark elf themed team, I'd only use their linemen. The Witch Elf may fit by lore, but it is very strange to use them along with other seemingly special positionals and a big guy spot available. This team might even make the old DE team obsolete. Besides, isn't the lost Chaos teams is about finding new play styles, rather than further tweeking old ones. Am I way out of line?


Some ideas on wording and rules

You may remove the "Once this is done,..." part of Narrow focus description. It only applies to the first upgrade anyway.
It might be a good idea to make the personality split as part of post game, otherwise it is actually better to get your Horros killed than KOd. If you do this, skip the part about how many horrors are allowed on the team, and put 0-16 in the specification. I think the split personality should be part of their purchase/birth, so that you can actually buy random split personalities (for their double TV cost). This makes sense in tournaments with resurrect style post match sequence and fixed roosters. If you want lore for this the Pink horror costs 100k, and both halves of it will want pay even though you only hire one.

What did you think of my personality chart?


Have fun play testing!

[zerodemon]

@Korinth, you are wisdom abound. I like the idea for Horrors, but the Tzeentch team is becoming quite "rulesy" (not a word.) Adding in different kinds of blue horror, while very fluffy, is probably a stretch too far. We're play testing Tzeentch next weekend though, so we'll try it out. I like the ability to purchase them at double cost, but nobody would ever do it anyway. Blue Horrors are Goblin equivalent and while very handy in Orc teams, I'd be loathe to pay 100,000 gp for them. Fun idea though, and so might as well offer it in the next update. Might also add Garion's good idea of giving Blue Horrors Decay to offset those extra skills and make them much more short lived. Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

I agree on the DE Slaanesh team. I think it's a better alternative still to the original Slaanesh team I did (which had no personality, I find.) Worth noting this team has no Blitzers, Throwers or Runners (since Daemonettes have no hands.) The only player capable of filling the joint Blitzer/Runner role is the Witch Elf, who even so can only access General and Agility skills, and not the passing or strength skills she would need to be truly effective at either. This is by design.

The idea that Witch Elves are one of the best players in the game is highly controversial. Many Dark Elf players, who rely on very technical and cautious play, see both the Witch Elf and Assassin as risky purchases, especially early on. Their low armour and danger factor make them incredibly flimsy targets until they gain block, and even then, they frequently need replacing as their frenzy ability and method of use often leaves them open to getting pounded. Never is this more true than in a team whose only other positional player is incapable of carrying the ball and just as flimsy.

That said, I mocked up the Slaanesh Elf Team in about 3 minutes and it hasn't been playtested yet except for one game last night (where it was soundly thrashed by the aforementioned broken bloodletters.) We'll be testing it again next week against the Tzeentch team (since my mate Eric thoroughly enjoyed the thrashing as any good Slaanesh Elf cultist should) so we'll see how it goes.

Valid concerns though. If you have the time and models, give them a try for me both with a basic build and under the assumption that four of your players have received upgrades (one of who has received 2.) Best to randomise.

Just found out I'll be able to fling out another 4 playtest games tonight. Only have 3 guys coming round, but we'll do 2 games each. The line-up is as follows.

Khorne vs. Orc
Khorne vs. Slaanesh Dark Elf
Tzeentch vs Human
Tzeentch vs Slaanesh Dark Elf

I'll try to get some pictures of stuff (if I remember.) The Khorne Chainsaws aren't impressive in any way, since I chucked them together out of grey plastics in two minutes, but I'll maybe upload them anyway, despite my sheer embarrassment.

[korinth]

Might also add Garion's good idea of giving Blue Horrors Decay to offset those extra skills and make them much more short lived. Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

I agree that they should be short lived, but I don't see why they should have decay. Isn't it better to keep them Stunty and lower the AV. Then you can use them as meat shields or tools when you need to or just save them for a rainy day.. This would of course be especially true if you'd opt for the Personality Chart solution where the Different types of sub horrors would be more like tools in a toolbox. Dacay adds probability if rolled, but it is stunty and low armor that gets them in the position for the rolls.

It'll be interesting to se what your conclusions are after testing!

[zerodemon]

Yeah I know about the pricing guide. Issue is that you can build a lot of broken stuff using the price guide. The Bestigor is priced wrong with the +1ST boost on a standard beastman costing 50,000gp. This would make him 110,000gp unless there is some negative skill missing from his profile.

Don't worry too much about our playtesting methods. Each team will get played off against both tier 1 and 2 teams around 12-15 times over the next month. Our group has 8 fairly experienced BB players who are great at picking out issues and potentially broken rules. I am going to pick the best stuff from the teams you've suggested (I've already started to, stealing your Decay idea, which is brilliant.)

I may add your Beastman team to the document even, though with a couple of minor changes after a little playtesting to make sure that I'm being fair with the idea that ST5 blitzing Bestigors for 90,000 are a bit much.

Every criticism I am levelling your way is not meant to be insulting. Rather I am highlighting potential issues that I can see with the idea of some of the players. I will reconcile that with experience over the next few weeks. Sometimes one session is all it takes to demonstrate a glaring flaw. Other things take time. This is why my rosters have gone through rapid changes over the last few days, including cost, special rules and entire characters. I guarantee that if your is the best way, I'll end up there eventually.

The truth is I'm not that precious about what I think should be in each team. When something doesn't work, I hack it out and throw it away, like I did with Bloodletters (an issue I believe both of our lists had.) I didn't need to add in psychopaths with chainsaws. They may not work in the long term. You can guarantee that if they don't I'll either remove them entirely or reduce them to 0-1.

As Korinth mentioned, Witch Elves may be overpowered in the Slaanesh DE list. If they are, they'll be thrown away too, and I'll probably throw in some kind of Blitzer/Runner with less intense abilities.

I'd appreciate specific criticism of my lists (and why they are too powerful) if you have the time. It'll help with the playtesting process.

I've posted on NAF aswell, so hopefully I'll get some critique over that way too.