Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Khorne teams

[zerodemon]

LATEST VERSION IS UP (WE'RE PLAYTESTING THESE VERSIONS TONIGHT.)

Completely agree @Garion. People with your outlook and previous ideas (especially a somewhat previously playtested team) are invaluable to our process. I would also like to apologise. I had a brain fart and you are correct. It is a 4/36 = 1/9 chance that falls to a 1/36 chance once you claim block.

However an 8/9 chance of staying on your feet while blocking is very good for any player just starting out when he has no assists, especially when the only cost for having that bonus against any ST4 player is declaring a Blitz action.

My main criticism is that Bloodletters (and by extension, Bestigor) are stronger only for the sake of their inclusion. Without the ST boost, these models fill the same role as Beastmen. They have Horns, and have Frenzy to justify their inclusion. Never mind that Bloodletters just aren't that muscular anymore and operate as a military arm of Khorne instead of a berserk one (albeit with the sole aim of spilling blood.)

We're better off without Bloodletters. If I opt to include them, they will be exactly like beastmen in all likelihood, replacing them in the Khorne list.

The Beastman list is something I don't really have the time to test on top of the four (probably soon to be three) lists I am currently testing. Since you've already playtested it extensively, I'll leave that in your capable hands. If you'd like us to playtest it, I'll make modifications only after running it through the Dungeonbowl we're starting in a month alongside the other V2's of the teams I'm building now. Up to you. Hell, I'd invite you along if you were closer.

[korinth]

Might also add Garion's good idea of giving Blue Horrors Decay to offset those extra skills and make them much more short lived. Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

I agree that they should be short lived, but I don't see why they should have decay. Isn't it better to keep them Stunty and lower the AV. Then you can use them as meat shields or tools when you need to or just save them for a rainy day.. This would of course be especially true if you'd opt for the Personality Chart solution where the Different types of sub horrors would be more like tools in a toolbox. Dacay adds probability if rolled, but it is stunty and low armor that gets them in the position for the rolls.

It'll be interesting to se what your conclusions are after testing!

[zerodemon]

It's half time, game 1. We're eating spicy peanuts and talking over some stuff.

So far we're playing Khorne vs Dark Elf Slaanesh. Both teams are operating beautifully under experienced coaches. Here are the team builds.


Slaanesh
1 Daemonettes 100,000
2 Witch Elves 220,000
8 Cultists 560,000
2RR

Khorne
2 Warriors 240,000
9 Khorngor 630,000
1 Psychopath 80,000
1 Reroll (we gave an extra 10,000 for a reroll so we could playtest the Psychopath without the reduction to a full 11 man teams capabilities.)

As you can see, team builds are limiting (as they should be with such elite players.) The Khorne team is pretty good at causing damage, but no more so than a standard Chaos team. We can already see how Narrow Focus will be limiting, as the team is sorely lacking in positionals. This is demonstrated by the speed of the Slaanesh team, who are giving as good as they get. The daemonettes have done most of the blitzing, while the witch elves are having to work much more in concert with the cultists to operate effectively. Mark is too skilled a player to allow Eric to knock him in to the crowd, so he's picking off lonely beastmen with the clawed daemonette and using his two witch elves to juggle people from the cage. His Cultists have formed a classic 2 line blockade in front of the cage to slow it's motion, resulting in the Khorne team, who received this half to a no score.

The Slaanesh team are now receiving and Mark is giggling as he manhandles his wonderful Psychopath model. It's going on to the line of scrimmage apparently. Mark outnumbers Eric 10 to 9 at this point. Good times.

Tzeentch vs Human is an interesting one. As anybody will attest, humans are hard to play well, but Steve is making a good go of it. The newly reduced strength Pink Horrors make good runners, since they now have a speed of 7. Animosity, however, makes them very reluctant to release the ball to anybody but another Horror.

Here's the line-up
2 Pink Horrors 200,000
2 Warriors 220,000
7 Cultists 420,000
2RR 120,000

4 Blitzers 360,000
1 Thrower 70,000
2 Catchers 140,000
5 Linemen 250,000
3RR 1FF

The human team are much more effective to start, since they have clearly defined roles for every player. It's much easier to decide what to do when you have that advantage. Thankfully, 2 of my Cultists and 1 of my Warriors started with Foul Appearance. I whacked them in the middle at the front (since I was kicking) and flanked them with the my other Warrior (Two-Heads. Annoying) and a Cultist with Claws. A couple with extra arms and big hand respectively are ranging the back field for those pesky catchers, while one Horny cultist and one with tentacles stand on each flank, backed up by the nippy Horrors. The half went well. I was scored against in turn 4 thanks to a fantastic dodge roll following a timely blitz on Steve's behalf.

It was all fine. I returned the favour 3 turns later after Horny cultist and his Cage of Dooooom swiftly made their way up the pitch, Foul Appearance warding off the turn 7 blitz he wanted to make against me (handy!) Helps that I'm an experienced Nurgle coach. Can imagine things being a lot different though thanks to the Random Mutations.

We're now 11 vs 10 in my favour with our players. Things are gonna get interesting.

Update: Game 2 saw Khorne against Orcs and Slaanesh against Tzeentch. Same line-ups but I granted 200,000K extra and 5 upgrades spread over 4 characters plus whatever upgrades and cash were earned in game 1.

Khorne line-up improved considerably. Two extra warriors (including the 40k earned in game 1) boosted the size of the squad, maxing out the warrior allowance. Two standard Khorngor upgrades saw Mark opt for Frenzy and Dauntless respectively (thinking that since he was playing Orcs, Dauntless would help him with the Black Orcs.) His third standard upgrade gave a Warrior Block. The fourth upgrade (2 upgrades to a Khorngor again) saw Pile-On and Mighty Blow. Keep in mind that on a Khorngors first upgrade, they may only take one of three skills. Mighty Blow was counted as his second upgrade. Couple this with another Warrior with Block, earned through an MVP+INJ SPP earned in Khorne game 1, the Khorne team was in a good place.

Here was the Orc team layout
4 Black Orcs 320,000
4 Blitzers 320,000
1 Thrower 70,000
1 Troll 110,000
1 Goblin 40,000
2 Linemen 100,000
4RR 240,000

He ended up with a goblin upgrade (dirty player) 1 thrower upgrade (Hail Mary) a Black Orc (Block) and his 2 upgrades on a lineman (Block and +1AG)

The Khorne team worked a charm, giving the Orcs the same kind of well balanced fight you get from a Chaos team. The Psychopath killed a Blitzer, but the Orcs won the game 2-1, despite being badly battered.

Slaanesh vs Tzeentch was another quality game. Both teams seem well balanced. Animosity is a pain in the rectal pipe. We played as if one of the horrors had divided to try out the Blue Horrors and they were a ton of fun. Decay, however makes them very vulnerable.

Of course, the big question is whether Decay making them too vulnerable is a problem, or fair cop considering the one player they'd come from had already died once, and technically need to die twice more as weird little blue midgits. We decided it worked just fine, so we're keeping Decay on 'em. It also makes the Tzeentch coach question whether picking up a serious injury is worth splitting a pink horror, considering he's going to end up with two weak, stunty, decaying players. It's a no brainer if he dies, but not so much now in the case of a niggling injury or stat decrease.

All concerns about a second Dark Elf team seem unfounded. They are different enough from all the other elf teams and their current play styles that they make a worthy addition. More discussion over the coming week of course and a few skill table changes.

Remember to throw any ideas my way.

@Korinth Next weekend we're full on playtesting Tzeentch, so we'll have a look at the different Blue Horror types then.

[Inforthepain]

How are the plannning for the weekend testing to look like zerodemon? Anything intressting planned for testing this weekend, also what are that team setups for the games planned?

Hope you have a fun weekend!

[zerodemon]

Playtesting this weekend has so far been productive. We played 6 Tzeentch games today (a fair number of stand in models were used let me tell you) against the following teams at several levels of development. We played against the following

Human
Chaos
Nurgle
Dwarf
Pro Elf
Ogre

The results were as follows.

@Korinth While we did enjoy playing the games with your Blue Horror stand in types, we found having such overly skilled players to be a little much. We tried both my kind and your more developed sort and both were unsuitable for play at most levels. The standard "dodgy goblin" variant is nice to develop though, and we're passing the idea about of removing Decay entirely and adding a random element as to which skill table they may select from when they upgrade. Perhaps this rule:-

When a Blue Horror is added to your team, roll a D6. The result will be the kind of skill you receive on a normal roll.
1-3 General
4 Strength
5 Passing
6 Agility

The other types of skill may only be attained on a double. Blue Horrors may not take Mutation skills.

The other types of player work well now. The decrease in ST and increase in MA work well on the Pink Horror. The Spawn is a favourite. We are considering a change to the rule Random Mutation.

... Also, whenever a player with Random Mutation opts to take a Mutation skill, roll on the Random Mutation table again, and apply that skill. If the same Mutation is rolled twice for one player, the player gains no skill, and gains a niggling injury. If he rolls that same skill a third time, he dies.

The new PDF is up.

This doesn't include the special rules changes (since they are still in discussion phase) but you'll notice some changes.

Khorngor are cheaper now, while Khorne rerolls are now 70,000. Psychopaths may only take G skills on a Normal roll.

The Slaanesh team has seen changes to the Normal and Double skills available to it's players.

Tzeentch has seen the Pink Horror profile change, as well as skill table changes. Also, the Spawn now only has access to Mutations as a Normal roll. This will become more of a factor if the debated Random Mutation rule takes effect.

We will be looking to add a Beastman team to the document tomorrow. A base list is shown below. Any other teams you guys want to see?

0-16 Gors 60,000 6 3 3 8 Horns GM SAP
0-4 Bestigor 100,000 7 3 3 8 Horns, Block GSM AP
0-4 Ungor Runners 80,000 8 2 3 7 Catch, Dodge, Growing In* GAM SP
0-1 Minotaur 150,000 5 5 2 8 Loner Frenzy Horns Mighty Blow Thick Skull Wild Animal SM GAP
Re-roll 60,000 gp
Star Players : Same as Chaos team.

*Growing In - Each time this player rolls for a skill upgrade, first roll a D6. On a 1-3, he must take the skill Horns instead of rolling. Once the player has Horns, he may remove the skill Growing In.

The above team is unplaytested and currently a very basic mash up of the Human and Chaos teams. It will develop, so don't judge me (please?)

[Inforthepain]

Rooooooar I am gonna judge you! naaah, just kidding. Anyway, I'm not sure if I understand the random mutation thing. First my player gain a lvl, then I want a mutation skill if he get the sames as one of those he already had will he not gain a skill but get a niggling injury and miss the next game aswell? then you kinda wanna stay away from mutations. Tho that might be something for your blue horrors to keep em shortlived tho might lower the cost if you make em so fradgile that they can die from a lvl up.

And why is scrappa sorehead still on the rosters xD? Thrud do I understand but not scrappa I know it should be like ordinary chaos team but scrappa is a goblin, ogre and orc starplayer hehe.

Hmmmmm any team I would like to see hmmmmmm... Tyranids ^^ dunno how the fluff will work out (meteor crash maybe) but that 1 team I would like. Been planning to start a lizzy team with tyranidminis for a long time. Also been thinking about creating a roster for it but havnt got very far. Tyranid Hormagaunt Brood as the 0-16, they should be a fast team with claw and str2. Because these would be undevolped version of those that would live 40000years later. Well that how far I got.

What did the results of the games end like?

Well well thats all for now keep us posted

[zerodemon]

Well the Tzeentch team has thus far been playing evenly with Tier 2 teams, struggling against Tier 1's under our "weaker" coaches, but doing fine when more experienced players use them. If you're looking for who they beat and who beat them here it is.

Human 3-1 Tzeentch (skilled blue horror scored goal)
Chaos 1-1 Tzeentch
Nurgle 1-2 Tzeentch (skilled blue horrors scored both goals)
Dwarf 1-1 Tzeentch
Pro Elf 3-1 Tzeentch (I'm pretty good with pro elves)
Ogre 1-1 Tzeentch

I'd have no idea where to start with a Tyranid team. Hormagaunts have no hands and all the guns are fused to the nids themselves. You'd only have Genestealers capable of carrying the ball and they'd have Claws and Extra Arms. Think I'd like to stick in the realm of Warhammer if possible.

p.s. I won't do a Bretonnian team. They're just Humans.

[Inforthepain]

nononono i were talking about these little bastereds http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...Id=prod380004a

huge claws/pointythings and zoom in on the picture the you can see they got tiny arms^^ thats the ballcarring arms. think they should have some negativ trait for passing/handling the ball like weak arms.

Geenstealers might be more of the ballhandling type tho I never liked how they look. Also got bad memories from space hulk where those basterds keeped eating all my pretty marines.

Tyranid Ravener Brood could be the bashingpower of the team. Look like this http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...Id=prod350001a


no guns. well I have never understood why some of the tyranids got guns. "hmmm I know I gonna have my offsprings evolve guns instead of fists".

These little fellas should be the weak unevolved version of those that eat marines for breakfast. Were aiming it to be a tier 2 team.


Anyway, what else could be fun. Dunno, might have to turn to another game for Ideas.

[zerodemon]

Updated with a Beastman team and our modified Amazon team list. Enjoy. Beastman team being tested Thursday.

[zerodemon]

Hey guys! Thursday and tonight were both good testing nights. Here's some information on our stuff.

We're largely happy with Khorne, Tzeentch and Slaanesh. Three of our eight are now playing them as part of our 3 week Spike Magazine league, which should inform us if the teams are overpowered in anyway (They'll get 12 games each in that time.)

The Beastmen are a bit boring so far, though the Ungor Runners fit well on the team and give a bit of flavour. We're considering Centigor but don't want to take anything away from the Chaos Dwarves, so they're a probably not. Any ideas for the Beastmen to make them more original will be entertained, so don't be shy.

The Amazon team are a lot less powerful under our build (a little better than a human team, though less bashy and more quick once they start developing.) We've tried both the Wild Women and Garion's Ogress (a stroke of genius) but have written both off pretty much. We find both models exist outside of what we see as the purpose of the team, and were made just to fill what was perceived as a gap in their team build (i.e. Strength.) It was also decided that Frenzied players belong more on the Norse team.

That is all for this week. Any feedback is appreciated.

[korinth]

I think your league will prove more important as feedback than our comments.

I'm still curious to see some testing of the more advanced random version of Split Personality, mainly because it sounds fun..

Please keep the reports coming!

[zerodemon]

Check earlier post Korinth.

[korinth]

Missed it.

The random skill choice is a great option! They should probably be named to add to the flavor. Meaning, the blue horrors come in 4 different named types, all listed in the team specification, you get a General Horror (insert better name) on 1-3 and so on.

[zerodemon]

Hey guys,

We are all very happy with the teams at this point. We're about to start a 16 team Dungeonbowl league. Of those teams ALL FIVE will be represented by players who haven't already play-tested them (in the Khorne team case, we had two takers.)

Some notes:

The Amazon team is much more vulnerable now, but at the same time, much more specialised. No longer do they feel boring, standard or straightforward. This isn't news to us. The attached document still has Wild Women, but they have been removed from the team.

The Beastmen and other Chaos teams are great just the way they are. Go right ahead and play them if you like as they are balanced. Keep in mind that they are house rules.

They fit in to specific tiers.

Tier 1
Amazon
Beastmen
Tier 2
Khorne
Tzeentch
Tier 3
Slaanesh

[Aflo]

I was vaguely planning on testing out a Tzeentch team and came up with this team that follows the blueprint of deviation exemplified by the Nurgle team i.e. no demonic linemen.


0-4 Warrior of Tzeentch: 5/4/3/9 Pro, Random mutation GMS/AP 130k
0-1 Thrall Wizard: 6/3/3/8 Bombadier (note, not secret weapon - he's shooting fireballs) GPM/AS 110k
0-2 Tzaangors: 6/3/3/8 Horns GMS/AP 60k
0-16 Cultists: 6/3/3/7 GM/APS 50k


They swap a big guy for an on field wizard, the warriors get a buff for a cost (pro represents the God of Fate at work) and all but 2 of the beastmen are replaced by what are essentially mutating thralls for a slight price reduction. Should be a fun team to play, with the random mutation, lack of excessive bash, weaker general AV and new play opportunities with the wizard hopefully gearing play to a more hybrid style rather than the C-POMB spam frequented by normal chaos teams which in my mind represents Khorne pretty nicely as is.

[zerodemon]

We tried this exact sorcerer profile (both with and without secret weapon.) Too powerful on a chaos team. It's all well and good for goblins, who have very little stopping power, but alongside ST4 warriors and horned beastmen, you just have an overpowered chaos team. He would make a good star player...

...except for one problem. Blood Bowl fluff says wizards aren't allowed on the pitch. Not ever.

I'd probably nix Beastmen from the lineup altogether.

There is no profit in limiting any model for squad selection, unless he is tested. The reason we went for Horrors (and a successful and popular player they are) is that they are very flavourful and chaotic, which fits the game well.

Furthermore, a Slaanesh team without Daemonettes? Who wants that? You could argue that the human team would make a great Slaanesh cult team if you wrapped them in leather, but that would be boring too.

You'll see our Khorne team is currently a better Chaos team, mostly for the inclusion of chainsaw wielding psychopaths. We are working on that. Something will give. They will become more original and definitively separate from the normal chaos team. If anywhere needs your input it is here.