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Thread: Death of the warhammer-soul

  1. #41
    Chapter Master Whitwort Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    I don't think there's anything wrong with being nostalgic for the old days, it's really subjective since we're talking about stylistic preferences anyways. A lot of people are going to have their fondest associations with the time period when they were first getting seriously involved in the game.

    I can agree with the OP to an extent in that I think some of the current warhammer designs seem more toyish or cartoony than their previous incarnations. Oversized weapons (current Vampires), big swooshy cloaks (Deathmaster Snitch), just some of the exaggeration in general contributes to the over-the-top nature of some of them and in some cases I'd prefer something a little more understated.

    Of course, that's not to say that there weren't any ridiculous models in the old days, or that all of the old models were quality, characterful figures. There are also some ranges which I think have gotten a lot better since the old days - the oft-mentioned plastic skaven are a HUGE improvement over their former iterations, and I think several factions got a much grittier, more realistic, or just less-stupid look with 6th edition that has for the most part continued. All elves, for example, Bretonnians, and while I'm a fan of the very old chaos metals I think the current warriors are undeniably an improvement over the first multipart plastic set.
    The great thing about the dwarves is that, even though there's this comic element, when they fight - they really fight!

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  2. #42
    Chapter Master de Selby's Avatar
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    Quote Originally Posted by stroller View Post
    I don't like the river troll or arachnarok sculpts, but technically the trolls in particular are very good.
    Huh. I love those trolls. I nearly cited them as an example of how GW is still delivering gorgeous characterful sculpts using new techniques. One of them is armed with a fish for god's sake. When the taste of 'the fans' varies so widely it's inevitable that some people are going to be displeased with GW's current output, but I don't think they can do much about this.

  3. #43
    Chapter Master Caiphas Cain's Avatar
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    I actually really dislike all of the huge plastic kits. To me, they seem like toys from a mcdonalds happy meal. The plastic characters however, are amazing.
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  4. #44
    Chapter Master loveless's Avatar
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphas Cain View Post
    I actually really dislike all of the huge plastic kits. To me, they seem like toys from a mcdonalds happy meal. The plastic characters however, are amazing.
    Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but I've never understood the happy meal toy comparison. The large kits have the same level of detail as the plastic characters, just...well...more of it across a larger area. The Vampiresses on the Coven Throne seem to be every bit as good as, say, the plastic Sorceress or Wight King. Similarly, things like the Zombie Dragon/Terrorgheist have tons of little areas of detail on them - hanging scraps of flesh, chains, organs, etc.
    ...and a little help comes in a little glass vial in a gun pressed against her anatomy...

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  5. #45
    Chapter Master The bearded one's Avatar
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    I can't really recall that many large models from "ye olden days" that looked as good as any of the plastic monsters.
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  6. #46
    Chapter Master Caiphas Cain's Avatar
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    Quote Originally Posted by loveless View Post
    Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but I've never understood the happy meal toy comparison. The large kits have the same level of detail as the plastic characters, just...well...more of it across a larger area. The Vampiresses on the Coven Throne seem to be every bit as good as, say, the plastic Sorceress or Wight King. Similarly, things like the Zombie Dragon/Terrorgheist have tons of little areas of detail on them - hanging scraps of flesh, chains, organs, etc.
    It's not the amount of detail, the designs just look like they're supposed to appeal to children. They're just so over the top. The ogre cannon the size of Texas? The throne flying on skeletal horsemen? They're just stupid. I think the larger a model is, the more likely I am to dislike it. The biggest kit that I actually like is the corpse cart.
    Last edited by Caiphas Cain; 13-02-2012 at 21:57.
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  7. #47

    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphas Cain View Post
    It's not the amount of detail, the designs just look like they're supposed to appeal to children. They're just so over the top. The ogre cannon the size of Texas? The throne flying on skeletal horsemen? They're just stupid. I think the larger a model is, the more likely I am to dislike it. The biggest kit that I actually like is the corpse cart.
    I love the coven throne, it fits together very well and for me fits in with my idea of what a Vampire might ride into battle. I really like the idea that some lazy bint of a vampiress has summoned a spectral host to transport her into battle in a majestic manner. I wouldn't say these kits are aimed at children but at hobbyists like myself that see a model and say wow I must own that. We all suffer from shiny syndrome to a certain extent.
    Big kits are what Warhammer has been missing for a long time and I think that they have given the game a new flavour.


    Now if anyone mentions Space Marines riding wolves then I would have to say that is a progression too far and still refuse to believe the unit made it in to a printed codex lol.

    But everyone has things that they love in the GW catalogue/background and things they hate that other people feel the exact opposite about.

  8. #48

    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    To: de selby




    Originally Posted by stroller

    I don't like the river troll or arachnarok sculpts, but technically the trolls in particular are very good.
    Huh. I love those trolls. I nearly cited them as an example of how GW is still delivering gorgeous characterful sculpts using new techniques. One of them is armed with a fish for god's sake. When the taste of 'the fans' varies so widely it's inevitable that some people are going to be displeased with GW's current output, but I don't think they can do much about this.


    Don't get me wrong. They're great models. I DO like the fish. They are very clever technically. They are a "better" model in all those respects than the older trolls. It just happens that in my head the image of "troll" I have is more akin to the earlier version. It might also be an age - or age when you started - thing, as others have suggested.
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  9. #49

    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    my first post on this site but I've been lurking a while

    I used to play a lot of Warhammer around 3rd edition and then left for however long it was until 8th edition so what was that, 10 years, 20 years? I don't know. Something that stood out to me on getting interested in the hobby again is really how much games workshop have improved over the years, some of the real stand outs for me..

    the high elf and dark elf plastic dragons are both leagues better than the metal versions.
    the steam tank, I've just started assembling a new empire army and this was a fun kit to put together just brimming with detail.
    pretty much all the skaven stuff, the screaming bell amazed me it looks fantastic compared to the old one which lacked any character at all.
    then there is the forge world stuff, I decided on a new empire army mainly after seeing Elspeth Von Draken, there was never anything even close the quality of the sculpt back in 3rd.

    so looking back at the goblin spears from 3rd and then looking at the greatswords I'm assembling now....no i really can't say they are losing their edge.
    Last edited by comps; 13-02-2012 at 23:58.

  10. #50
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    Here are some archers from the 4th edition box set (according to google at least) - http://www.google.com/imgres?q=warha...-mPyOCg&zoom=1

    Here are some lothern sea guard from the island of blood - http://www.esaedroweb.net/coppermine...lbum=25&pos=38

    In what universe are GW not producing better minis? Their modeling, CAD or not, is the best I've ever seen it. It's so good that despite my outrage at the constant price hikes I'm still buying GW* and don't see myself getting models from other ranges. As well as the obviously superior aesthetics of the current models over older ones, GW's plastics have another trait that endears them to me further. The latest kits display a great deal of thought and effort in design so as to ensure a maximum of mould lines are invisible, being covered by other parts or joining to places where a seam would be expected. It makes putting together these models an absolute pleasure.

    Those of you who dislike the large kits, I understand your objection. Some of them, such as the coven throne, are a little over the top. Others, though, like the screaming bell, the arachnarok, the elven dragons, the chimera - they're amazing. I didn't think so at first. It was actually another thread a while ago which pointed out that GW might be trying to better distinguish Fantasy from 40K by making fantasy about grand battles between armies on a gigantic scale. Once I looked at it this way the big models made sense. They fit comfortably into this definition of the warhammer world - monstrosities that tower over the average troop. Plus the models are, again, superbly detailed.

    Multi-part plastic kits are brilliant. The limitation in posing models is annoying and has put me off a number of units, but this is easily offset by the benefits of working with plastic over metal (particularly when converting to overcome said limitation). Comparing their poses to previous metal incarnations, the older models have more character, but I think having a whole unit of 20 infantry composed of three or four (individually) dynamic poses looks sillier than have 20 models that have indistinguishable, generic poses (which I feel adds to the grand scale warfare effect).

    Fantasy is in a good place, with the exception of finecast which I cannot bring myself round to approving. Warhammer's "soul" is just fine.

    *Although not as much as I would have previously, and still no finecast.

  11. #51

    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    I've thought about this over the years and there is some key points people are not mentioning, I'm going to keep this on topic as much as possible but these side things have to be mentioned to understand the grand scale of change over the years.

    First of all....pre 4th edition, GW had a very distinct art style, John blanche, adrian smith and even jes goodwin contributing to alot of the pages of their books an overall image. Today they still contribute art but if anyone were to look back at adrian or johns style of art back in the late 80s or 90s they would for sure see in alot of ways better detail or more "soul" put into the art ( and yes I'm well aware that john is constantly busy so can't do masterpieces like his knight panther anymore etc ).

    When we see johns work today ( and I respect him as an artist and even like this later work ) his paintings for all that they are, are simply sketches with watercolor washes. And as far as adrian goes his pencil work is 100000x better than his work on chaos in the last 10 years, sure his detail is still good and his designs work but its not nearly as amazing as say his slaaneish warband or the minotaur etc in graphite from the golden era of GW.

    GW in tte 80s and 90s had some very very unique talented artists who helped that whole girmdark weird cyber punk look flow together into what we all loved back then.

    Jes however is possibly the only golden era personality still creating the best attention to detail and quality miniature sculpts as he ever has, I mean you can pick up a jes sculpt from the late 80s and one of the chaos sculpts from today and pretty much know it's him cause his work is as close to flawless as possible and he's never really lost his style ( a style that helped define GW ) he's kept it and improved to flow with the changes gw has made.

    When GW lost Kev Adams, merged marauder into citadel and more or less forced the sculpting team to all have a similar look to the entire range ( you can still spot the sculptors if you know their style ), it began to lose alot of it's original character. That's not to say GW's sculpting itself is bad, if anything their plastics are really high end quality today compared to the hilarious undetailed poo from the 80s and 90s ( anyone pick up the blood blowl or space hulk plastics from back then ? ), and it was probably around the time that 4th ed fantasy battle ( and in turn 2nd ed 40k ) that not only did we enter the crayola red period, but the sculpts themselves turned into boring generic arms outstretched everyone is an epic hero insanity overall style.

    It was at this time that all those artists ( blanche still did covers yes I know ) really went from being ace to mediocre at best, long gone was that distinct grimdark punk look, instead it was like flashy colored covers and cartoony styles aimed at children and the new ( at the time ) corp take over, I mean just google for a pic of WHFRP deaths dark shadow for example...covers like that would MAKE VC today what undead was back then, not this laughable "I'm a paint by numbah in pinky red hauberk of teh fwayed one hurrr buy me kiddies!".

    It's not much different than what happened to TSR with ad&d....for years they had some of the most top end artists making very distinct covers that helped define that look and style towards their products, now look at them ? looks like they hired a bunch of deviant art digital kiddies who would not know what to do if they picked up a brush or pencil, it's pathetic really it is have any of you seen all the covers they have done since compared to elmore, easley and parkinson ? makes me cringe.


    As to the current sculpts, I feel their plastics are the best ever at this point but at the same time it almost feels like they ninja upping the scale to 30 mm vs 28, I mean just look at the size of the current chaos knights. But the multipart plastic is a step in the right direction because of how versatile it is, it gives a whole lot of options for poses and conversion work. Sure I would love to see a bit of a throw back to the C series days but that era is long gone I suppose we should all be glad the red period is over though and that ultramarines at least looks dark and serious now compared to their blue, yellow and red days.

  12. #52
    Chapter Master Freakiq's Avatar
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    I feel they are finally getting able to capture the Warhammer soul.

    No more Dracula clone vampires or generic fantasy archetypes, with the new plastic techniques they can create John Blanche's sketches perfectly in 3D.

    Just look at the new(ish) Zombie Dragon, more original and interesting than any of the old versions.
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  13. #53

    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    I like the Zombie Dragon model, but it's a bit strange that it doesn't actually look like any of the other dragon miniatures.

  14. #54
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    I think what's wrong with the Vampire Counts cover is the Vampire's head, as the rest of it is quite good(were they worried they might scare the kiddies?)...

  15. #55
    Chaplain Mr. Smuckles's Avatar
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    I agree with some of the other posters, the big kits just seem/look intended for little hands.
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  16. #56

    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Revenant~ View Post

    First of all....pre 4th edition, GW had a very distinct art style, John blanche, adrian smith and even jes goodwin contributing to alot of the pages of their books an overall image. Today they still contribute art but if anyone were to look back at adrian or johns style of art back in the late 80s or 90s they would for sure see in alot of ways better detail or more "soul" put into the art ( and yes I'm well aware that john is constantly busy so can't do masterpieces like his knight panther anymore etc ).
    for me John Blanche was never a stand out artist, In fact when I first got in to the hobby I positively disliked most of his work, he struggles with any sense of dynamics and proportion. But it's all a subjective thing and matter of taste. My favorite games workshop artist of all time would be Mark Gibbons but only his black and white stuff.
    I really can't look at the majority of their current artwork and say they've lost their soul, some of the stuff is fantastic.

  17. #57
    Chapter Master de Selby's Avatar
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Smuckles View Post
    I agree with some of the other posters, the big kits just seem/look intended for little hands.
    I have a problem that all the new warhammer terrain reminds me of the Masters of the Universe Castle Greyskull playset (google image search it if you're too young). There is always a danger that if the models get too big they start looking like action figures (eg. the dreadknight). But most of GW's bigger kits still look like something in-universe, at least to me. The VC flying chariot thing looks like one of those classic undead dioramas they used to do, assembled straight out of the box.

  18. #58
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Freakiq View Post

    Just look at the new(ish) Zombie Dragon, more original and interesting than any of the old versions.
    ???? I like the Terrorgheist but not that zombie horny dragon...(my brother had Tom's Meier one... it was small by actual standard but what a look!)
    I think that plastic quality has improved from the beginning (more details but harder ... so it breaks) but not the quality of all minis (as far as I am concerned)
    I loved the 5th ed bretonnians: Plastic Archers are way better than those produced now... but WE Archers and Saurus were craps (I liked Skink Archers)
    I like Skaven and HE from the Island of Blood... that's what made me go back to the hobby... thought others HE egghead Spearmen are a bit outdated as far as i am concerned (mine have WE heads)... and that was Jes Goodwin's original design (still one of my favorite sculptor)
    In recent stuff, I hate most of the Ogres but I like new VC ... especially the brothers Perry work (cavalry) and Krell and Isabella... As for the throne, I am waiting to see it in real...
    As for my old OOP Metal eagle, he looks very cartoony to me (especially compared to my Gamezone eagles) as well as 5th ed Tyrion...
    So no, I do not agree things are nor worse, nor better, neither more cartoony, they are just different...
    Lastly plastic/resin being inexpensive (vs. metal) yes you can make bigger minis (just compare the first HE tiny metal horse with the first plastic horses... I welcomed them as at last they had the proper size... but I would not trade them for any of my gamezone horsemen...)

    PS: Yes I also hate all those Skulls in the sceneries... I bought LoTR ones
    Main Edit: I agree somewhat that the initial Heavy Metal original feeling has been lost... It began with plastic and 5th ed and now Finecast and 8th ed... Minis are becoming more and more kinda toys... but in the meantime the game got better... (you can always pick alternative sculpts from Gamezone, AoW, Wyrd, PrivateerPress, Reaper,... as I do, if you are, as I am, a collector and like...love the Heavy Metal feeling and more sculpts than play... one game every two months I am not that a big player!...)
    Last edited by DarKolia; 14-02-2012 at 19:42.

  19. #59

    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    I'm in the group that thinks the big sculpts are more for toyland than a gaming table.
    They are over the top and they don't work for me.
    Recent placstics are very bland, maybe its a CAD thing.
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  20. #60
    Chapter Master popisdead's Avatar
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    Re: Death of the warhammer-soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Felwether View Post
    Nah. You're wrong.
    I agree. No clue what you see. If anything the games has gone less toy/humour based.

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