Vehicle may not fire (and Searchlights)

[tlronin]

Q#1: What does "vehicle may not fire..." mean or "vehicle may not shoot..." as it says at the "shaken" result on the damagechart or under the "cruising speed" header? Does it mean that you need to skip steps 1 trough 6 of the shooting sequence? Or steps 2 through 6 of the shooting sequence per page 15? Or something else? What?

--> I personally say step 1 through 6 all need to be skipped. How else do you decide which steps you take and which steps you leave out?

Q#2: Does a vehicle need to be able to take step 1 of the shooting sequence per page 15 to be able to use it's Searchlight (this is a wargear some
tanks can take)?

--> I personally say 'yes' as the searchlight's effect takes place after a target is acquired. You acquire targets at step 1.

Why is this important? To answer the question this entire discussion in the tournament scene started with:

Q#3: Can you use your searchlight to illuminate units under the nightfighting rules after a "shaken" result or after you moved 12"?

--> So I have to conclude that the searchlight can not be used if you cannot fire per the rules of the rulebook. Because you can't partake in any of the steps of the shooting sequence. So not even step 1. Searchlight needs step 1. A target is never acquired. Searchlight alas never activates.

What do you guys think?

[Bunnahabhain]

From the thread you started about two weeks ago... Searchlight with no weapons to shoot

Searchlight rules( IG codex in this case..)
".... it must still use the night-fight rules to pick a target, but having acquired a target, will illuminate it..."
So all it needs to do is pick a target, and be in NF range.

Looking at the shooting rules....
To pick a target, you must be allowed to shoot.
So a vehicle that is shaken or stunned, or has moved at a speed when it can't shoot ( machine spirit etc aside ) is not allowed to shoot, so cannot pick a target, so cannot use a searchlight.

A vehicle with no weapons, but isn't prohibited from shooting, on the other hand can use a searchlight.
This is as the shooting sequence goes:
1)Check LOS and pick target
2)Check range
3) otherstuff

You check LOS and pick a target before you measure to find out if any of your weapons are in range. Therefore you have met the criteria for using a searchlight before you are stopped by not having a weapon. The second sentence of the whole shooting section shows this clearly
Page 15, top left
" During the shooting phase, any and all of your units may fire."

Oh my gosh, you solved it with one reply for me. You're my new hero. I get it. So I had 'm partially right?

When you're not allowed to shoot you cannot use the searchlight, simple. So far I got it.

Having no weapons at all does not stop a player from doing step 1 from the shooting sequence (this is what I didn't interpret correct), which activates the searchlight. Crystal clear.

Thank you.

The rules are more than clear enough. Did you need another thread?

[tlronin]

I know. But over at the Dutch forum where I'm debating this they disregarded your answer. So I thought I'd spread out the questions in to seperate questions and have them addressed seperatly. To make it more clear to everybody.

You see, some disagree with what you wrote right there: "Looking at the shooting rules.... To pick a target, you must be allowed to shoot." It doesn't explicitly say in the rulebook that you can't take step 1 of the shooting sequence. It says: "May not shoot" or "may not fire". I agree with you though. But some say: "Why not stop at step 2 instead of step 1."

Plus some even debate if you need step 1 of the shooting sequence in order to use the searchlight. They said for example, look at a walker. He may opt to run in the shooting phase instead of firing (even if he has no weapons). Following the same logic they opt to use the wargear 'searchlight' in the shooting phase and it has nothing to do with the shooting sequence on page 15.
I disagree ofcourse. I say you can't opt to use the wargear searchlight as it's a passive effect which activates because you acquired a target in step 1 of the shooting sequence.

I simply want to collect more views on this internationally so see what the worldwide concensus is on this matter. Since in the Dutch tournament scene they seem to be quite single minded on this subject:

- You can use searchlight after 'shaken' result;
- You can use searchlight after you moved 12" (cruising speeds).
etc...

[Archangelion]

The answer is as simple as can be. If you can't shoot, you can't enter the shooting sequence.

[Bunnahabhain]

Ahh, ok, that makes more sense then. Sorry.

Presumably tournament scene means 5th ed codicies, so we don't have to worry about older versions of the search light rules.
However, there may be a translation issue in play here.

Also, if there is a case of groupthink, it can be very hard to shake.

[tlronin]

@Archangelion:
I agree with you. The counter-argument however is that it doesn't say so explicitly in the rulebook. It says: "may not shoot..." And so on. See the problem?

And how do you feel about a vehicle should be able to take step 1 of the shooting sequence to be able to activate the searchlight? True or false?

@Bunnahabhain:
Well, perhaps a language barriere more than a translation issue. Since we all quote from the English teksts.

There is definatly a case of groupthinking. I don't know if I'm able to shake it. I think I need GW to FAQ this.

The discussion is going on for a month now. It's ridiculous really...

[PRoeske]

As i'm active on the other (Dutch) forum as well, I think I might as well point out my case here.

In my opinion, there is a factual difference between 'Firing a Weapon' and 'Using Wargear'.

Is seems like you keep hanging on the part where you are only allowed to pick a target when shooting at something. If you could possibly tell me where the rulebook says so, I might actually be convinced.

Some examples where you pick a target, but don't actually shoot:
- DA Mind Worm power -> is used instead of firing a model, but no 'Psychic Shooting Attack'.
- IG Weaken Resolve -> Used in the shooting phase, but again not a Shooting Attack
- Close Combat -> Per the rulebook it is allowed to 'target an independent Character' with some kind of attacks.

In all of these situations, if it were true you can only 'target' something in the shooting sequence, these actions would not ever be legal.

To quote the Searchlight:

"Searchlights are used when the night fight rules are in effect. If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight. For the rest of the shooting phase, any other unit that fires at the illuminated unit does not use the night fighting special rule. However, [etc etc]"

The only exception on this versions is in the DA FAQ, where it is explicitly stated the target is only illuminated AFTER firing with the model. We all know Games Workshop sometimes has problems with finding the [copy]/[Paste] button, but a FAQ is only ever ligit for the Codex is is attached to.

Just my 2 cents.

[edit]
As for the part whether or not 'Not being able to shoot' meens 'not being able to do anything'. There's plenty of actions different models are still allowed to perform (even in the shooting phase), when being shaken or stunned (like Walkers Running, using Smoke Launchers etc).

As far as i'm concerned, the 'Shooting Sequence' (which is a summary of things, per the BBB; not some clarification or whatsoever) is not just the only thing vehicles of models can follow in the Shooting Phase. But still, if you want to go that route, would you allow me to have a look alongside my vehicle's guns if it is shaken? As that action is described in Step 1 of the sequence, it would actually be cheating...

[Bunnahabhain]

but a FAQ is only ever ligit for the Codex is is attached to.

Generally in the rules forum the opposite rule applies. If there is a FAQ that answers the question, that answer is held to be valid for all armies and situations, unless it is contradicted somewhere.

Examples. Do reserve modifers stack? The Eldar FAQ answer was Yes, so they did for everybody, as it was clearly directly relevant and not contradicted UNTIL the Guard FAQ went the other way, and now we have to go on a case by case basis.

The DA FAQ applies.

[PRoeske]

@Bunnahabhain,

If this is so, could you explain why every and all Errata documents start with the following text:

Although we strive to ensure that our codexes are
perfect, sometimes mistakes do creep in. In addition,
we occasionally print new versions of our rules, which
require amendments to be made in older versions of
our codexes. When such issues arise, we feel that it is
important to deal with them as promptly as we can,
and we therefore produce regular updates for all of
our codexes. When changes are made, the version
number will be updated, and any changes from the
previous version will be highlighted in Magenta. Where
a version number has a letter, E.g. 1.1a, this means it
has had a local update, only in that language, to clarify
a translation issue or other minor correction.
Each update is split into three sections: Errata,
Amendments, and ‘Frequently Asked Questions’. The
Errata corrects any mistakes in the codex, while the
Amendments bring the codex up to date with the latest
version of the rules. The Frequently Asked Questions
(or ‘FAQ’) section answers commonly asked questions
about the rules. Although you can mark corrections
directly in your codex, this is by no means necessary –
just keep a copy of the update with your codex.

This stronlgy suggests an Errata document is only attached to a single codex.

Grt. Pim

[Bunnahabhain]

Because, as they say, GW combine errata, updates and FAQs into one document, with three sections.

The updates and errata's only apply to the one codex ( for obvious reasons- ) the FAQs are universal.

For examples, I've pulled up the Blood Angel FAQ.
Q: Can a Baal Predator use smoke launchers during its
Scout move? (p36)
A: Yes.

So your interpretation says that this ruling has no meaning for any other unit with scout and smoke launchers?

Q: When a unit of 10 Space Marines with the Combat
Squad special rule arrives from reserve as two combat
squads, can they move on from, or Deep Strike onto,
two different locations? (p23)
A: Yes.
Q: When Infiltrating a unit of 10 Space Marines with
the Infiltrate special rule, can both Combat Squads be
deployed in different locations? In addition, does this
still only count as a single deployment? (p23)
A: Yes to both questions.

And those don't apply to any other marines with the combat squads rule?

Or an old chestnut- how to handle a weapon with the barrage rule and more than one shot. The ONLY guidance we have is the Eldar FAQ on tempest launchers. So does that not apply to the IG manticore....

[tlronin]

Is seems like you keep hanging on the part where you are only allowed to pick a target when shooting at something. If you could possibly tell me where the rulebook says so, I might actually be convinced.

To quote the Searchlight:

"Searchlights are used when the night fight rules are in effect. If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight. For the rest of the shooting phase, any other unit that fires at the illuminated unit does not use the night fighting special rule. However, [etc etc]"

It's right there in the description, which is my argument. I'm not saying it counts for ALL wargear, as you keep coming with wargear examples. But when you read the description of the searchlight I come to the conclusion that it's done in step 1 of the shooting sequence.

Please also stop talking about Walkers running... We've covered it. It fits perfectly fine in the idea. And smoke launchers are used in the movement phase! Bad examples...

But I know what you think and you know what I think. Now I want to know what our brethren over the world think.

[PRoeske]

@Bunnahabhain

To break down your post:

1. As far as I know, there are no other vehicles with scout & smoke launchers around in the game.
2. The Combat squad entry actually is in all marine FAQ's since the latest update.
3. The Tempest launcher is not relevent, as is has a 4th ediotn weapon profile (with G36" as range). When Guess weapons disappeared, they had to clarify how it works in the current rules set. The IG Manticore actually is an Ordnance(D3) Barrage weapon, so there couldn't possibly be any misunderstanding how to use it. 'Multiple Barrage' weapons are actually handled on page 32 of the BBB.

Oh, and there is one big difference here:

FAQ are clarifications on existing rules, so the answers should somehow be able to be found in the normal rules.

Errata's and Amendments are actual rules changes. This change on Searchlights for DA happens to be in the 'Errata' part of the document, so i assume we both agree this is only for Dark Angel players.


@TLRonin,
That's the whole point. Nowhere in the ruling of a Searchlight it says the vehicle actually has to fire a gun to use it. And the fact it needs to acquire a target, doesnt actually mean is has to follow the Shooting Sequence, as targetting can be done numoures times in a turn on different ocassions.

[don_mondo]

1. As far as I know, there are no other vehicles with scout & smoke launchers around in the game.

Any dedicated transport that has smoke and is carrying a unit with Scout.................................
I can do it with both my IG Chimeras and my SoB Immolators.

3. The Tempest launcher is not relevent, as is has a 4th ediotn weapon profile (with G36" as range). When Guess weapons disappeared, they had to clarify how it works in the current rules set. The IG Manticore actually is an Ordnance(D3) Barrage weapon, so there couldn't possibly be any misunderstanding how to use it. 'Multiple Barrage' weapons are actually handled on page 32 of the BBB.

Actually, the 'Multiple Barrage' rules don't cover a Manticore at all. Nothing in either Mulitple Barrage or Multiple Blasts tells us how to handle a single weapon that fires multiple blasts. The Eldar FAQ is the ONLY indication we have on how this should work, ie you resolve the multiple blasts from a single weapon using the mode of fire to determine Multiple Barrrage/Blasts. Per the main rules, we cannot fire any weapon that fires multiple blasts as it does not tell us how to resolve them.

Oh, and they did clarify how G weapons work, they work as Barrage. Page 32, main rulebook. The FAQ is solely for clarifying how to resolve multiple barrage blasts from a single weapon. Which means it is quite relevant in any discussion on how to resolve multiple blasts from a single weapon.

[PRoeske]

@don_mondo,
You're right on the Scouting Chimera's.

Leaves the point where a FAQ-entry only is a clarification contrary to Errata/Amendments, which are codex-specific changes to rules. Which means referring to another codex's Errata to solve some kind of rules problem is wrong, as the Errata/Amendments part id army-specific (refer to my quote earlier in this treat).

[don_mondo]

Regardless of it being an FAQ vice an errata, it's still the only indication from GW telling us how to handle this particular situation, as it is not covered in the main rules. And as already noted, there are multiple other examples of FAQs from one army that can be applied to all armies.

[tlronin]

@TLRonin,
That's the whole point. Nowhere in the ruling of a Searchlight it says the vehicle actually has to fire a gun to use it. And the fact it needs to acquire a target, doesnt actually mean is has to follow the Shooting Sequence, as targetting can be done numoures times in a turn on different ocassions.

For the love of god. I am NOT saying that a vehicle has to fire a gun in order to use it! As silly as it is, the searchlight can be activated when all weapons are destroyed on the vehicle according to the rules as they are right now. I'm saying that the description of the searchlight tells you clearly when it is activated. It's activated AFTER you roll 2D6 for the night fight check. And WHEN do you do this check? That's right, in the shooting sequence. You can't deny this fact, can you?

[Seattledv8]

Some examples where you pick a target, but don't actually shoot:
- DA Mind Worm power -> is used instead of firing a model, but no 'Psychic Shooting Attack'.

That one is a Psychic shooting attack, treated as a Heavy weapon DA FAQ

Q: Does Mind Worm need to roll To Hit? (p39)
A: Yes.

The only exception on this versions is in the DA FAQ, where it is explicitly stated the target is only illuminated AFTER firing with the model. We all know Games Workshop sometimes has problems with finding the [copy]/[Paste] button, but a FAQ is only ever ligit for the Codex is is attached to.

Except this one is not a FAQ but an Errata, a change to the wording of the codex.
In the orginial wording you had to score a 'hit' instead of just 'aquiring a target' for the searchlight to illuminate it.

[PRoeske]

Well, actually you do say you have to enter the Shooting sequence in order to use a searchlight. When are you allowed to enter the shooting sequence? Right, when you fire a gun.

If this weren't so, i'd be allowed to 'start the shooting sequence' with my weaponless razorback, actually measure range (what range, i don't have a gun?), and then not shoot...

My whole point is the Searchlight is a piece of wargear that allows you to:
a. pick a target
b. roll for night fight
c. illuminate it if you manage to roll high enough on the Night Fight check.

All these things are described in the ruling of a Searchlight, right?

Oh, and yes, you do A nightfight check in the shooting sequence, to check LoS to A target. As you need to see a target for your searchlight, you need to roll for nightfigt as well.

Example: My Pskyer Battle Squad want to do 'Weaken Resolve (lower leadership of a target unit, NO shooting attack!). It does need Line of Sight, so I have to make this NightFight check to actually use it, altough as far as i know I'm not in the Shooting Sequence.

@Seattledv8:My reference to the DA FAQ was to the whole document. As you can see above, I'm actually stating the change of wording is a Errata, so codex-specific.

[don_mondo]

[QUOTE=PRoeske;6089342]Example: My Pskyer Battle Squad want to do 'Weaken Resolve (lower leadership of a target unit, NO shooting attack!). It does need Line of Sight, so I have to make this NightFight check to actually use it, altough as far as i know I'm not in the Shooting Sequence.

QUOTE]

Not necessarily. IIRC, there was a thread similar to that quite a while back about whether an IG Commander had to roll for Night Fight to have LOS to the target for another unit that he was issuing an order to. I believe the consensus was no, he does not. In addition, Night Fight is rolled for "After selecting a target, but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly spot their target through the darkness." OK, if I'm not firing, there's no need for a night fight check. And WR using WR is not firing.

[tlronin]

My whole point is the Searchlight is a piece of wargear that allows you to:
a. pick a target
b. roll for night fight
c. illuminate it if you manage to roll high enough on the Night Fight check.

All these things are described in the ruling of a Searchlight, right?

Nope. That is not how I read the description of the Searchlight. It's a passive piece of equipment. A side effect. You can't actively seek out targets with the searchlight.