Know No Fear - Whats new in fluff? (SPOILERS!!!)

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't disagree - but I also think I perhaps didn't convey myself rightly.

I'm more worried about the placing of Babu & Oll, their inclusion in TOD & KNF. I understand their relevancy and, to tell the truth, I really do like the notion of them, but they seem...shoehorned into events. Their stories, in my humble opinion, the very ideas of them merit more than being side-notes and (almost) afterthoughts as part of the backdrop of something far greater.

I distinctly remember (though with no clue as to where the mention is for verification) that the Ordo Malleus is said to predate the Imperium. We should start to see them. By rights, they ought to be out there, in the background. But it'd be silly to have a section of a chapter in Horus Rising dedicated to an OM agent simply because they happened to be present at one of the briefings.

Similarly, I think Oll's story and Babu's story would have worked better if they were done...Kasper-style in Prospero Burns, or in the style of Legion. That is: dedicated to that story, adding a new angle on other things.

With the way it's done in KNF and TOD I don't think it's executed so...skillfully. There's an edge of dissatisfaction about it that I can't quite put my finger on other than saying 'they seem out of place'. They're more than cameos, and it's both stealing the limelight from the rest of the book and diminishing the worth that's given to them; too...diluted. (The examples I gave - Dorn, Loken/Tarvitz/Garro/Fabius are much more...agreeable.)

Having said all that, it could be a question of balance. The earlier cameos & 'special guest star appearances' were perhaps not quite enough, I'm confident a more pleasing equilibrium can be reached!

I think you're commenting on what is going to be a fundamentla problem of any 'shared' universe collaboration like 40K or Star Wars even when you get a cooperative arc like the HH series going. There are always going to be different ideas and methods and approaches that the authors want to take or explore, and that is going to cause problems no matter how thorough or well meaning they are. They have to work on a timetable, and things can change over time (ideas, the authors participating, teh direction they take, etc.) and that can lead to the sorts of things like 'late introductions' of characters. And yes, it is shoehorned, I won't deny that. What you're describing basically describes the entire pre-NJO Star Wars novel continuity (which I assume you have read - that was all over the place lol) and it gets messy and looks awkward, but its not that bad. Some TV series like Babylon 5 had similar problems (things had to be changed, or shoehorned in or altered at a later date and it changes how things that came along previously went.)

The main advantage the novel series like the HH will have is that they can go back (at a later point) and develop those characters if they want and how we get to the point they are introduced. There's actually been parts like that in the HH series already - the HH series is doing a greatl deal of that 'point of view' type stuff, where one novel presents events from the viewpoint of one faction or force, and then in a latter novel we may get a different perspective (the differing POVs on the Dropsite massacre for example, or the devastation of Prospero. Contrast how the Space Wolves look in ATS to how they're portrayed in Prospero burns. Alone they seem odd, but there's a sort of complementary aspect when you put them together.)

In any case, its' not something you can do away with without changing the universe and the way its developed dramatically, which probably isnt going to happen (but hey maybe they'll give Mat Ward creative control over BL and FFG too. lol)

(As for the Necromunda stories - I'm eager to get my hands on TKJ Omni & NO2. NO1 is now one of my most treasured purchases, such an unexpected gem.)

I bought them all and read them individually. I think the Kal Jerico stuff was the best, although it was better whne Gordon REnnie was writing it (he only wrote one novel sadly, but I think he was more involved in the comics. Execution Hour and Shadow point were the first 40K novels I ever read and I still have a fond place for them in my heart.)

[Mammomancer]

Long time lurker - first ever post, so bear with me!

Can I ask why the assuption seems to be that Oll actually reincarnates? I know reference is made by Grammaticus to his (Perrson's) "living many lives," but why do people leap to the conclusion that this means he is actually dying and being reborn? Surely it could also be read in the sense that he just has one life, but is forced to move around and adopt a number of different identities over the course of a long life, thus metaphorically "living many lives" rather than literally?

As well, I'm not sure he's 44,000 years old: upon rereading the book last night, it refers to him referring to notes in a book he wrote 22,000 years ago, and that this book itself itself was based upon something written 22,000 years before that. It doesn't suggest he wrote it 44,000 years ago: it could have been written by someone else. I'd personally read this as saying he's over 22,000 years old, but not necessarily as old as 44,000 years old. This is important, because if he's younger than 38,000 years old (the rough age of the Emperor) he's capable of being the Emperor's son, which casts the confrontation with Horus and Pius' death in a whole new light.

[Xisor]

Edit: Welcome to Warseer!

Mammomancer: I can't say on the reincarnation bit - it honestly just struck me that way. Nothing specific, so in that regard...sure, he could be undying rather than reincarnating.

Similarly with the 44k thing: it mentions his handwriting was worse then, which I took to be referring to the original map, not the copy. It is...ambiguous. For one: how does Oll know it was 22k old when he copied it? The impression it left me with was that he'd written it initially 44k ago, copied it out again 22k. Of course, as you say, it could be that he simply copied it and that was the handwriting referred to.

In that regard, I do see your point rather more clearly. It's certainly neater if he's at least 30k years old (he's been an Argonaut), not 44k. (The Emperor would be 38k, sortof.) In that regard it makes him pretty plainly a Sensei rather than a shaman.

(Then again, the discussion between Grammaticus & Oll suggested a similarity. John is [forcibly] reincarnated when he dies, Oll is similar [but not forced]. That doesn't mean 'therefore reincarnate', but it accounts for the ambiguity. Now it's stark, I'm not sure which I prefer. [Reincarnation is a form of immortality.])

[AlphariusOmegon20]

So where before we had the whole "there are no wolves on Fenris" debate that Abnett threw a wrench into... Now we have the Mystery of Ollanius Pius: The Oldest Human in Existence.

Speaking properly, it was McNeill (chronologically) who threw the "there are no wolves on Fenris" wrench, Dhurrin. We don't know the ins and outs of the genesis of that idea (to my knowledge).

Similarly, Londinium: he was hardly ever noted to be particularly significant as an individual save the fact that he was a saint. Saints, of course, even out here in the real world are the pinnacle of accurate retelling of stories that have never been adapted over time. It surprises me this'd be a problem in fiction. That said, this strikes me as an innovative way of unifying the 'distracting sacrifices' as well as telling another more interesting story. And allows an interesting retrospective yet continuous (ish) narrative into the Emperor and the Emperor's life without necessarily involving the Emperor himself.

Whether it turns out to be any good or not...I can't say.

Dhurrin: Plainly you're as unfamiliar with 'there from nearly the beginning' 40k as almost everyone ends up at some stage, including myself very often.

The pre-Emperor humans were. They reincarnate. It's implied that Oll reincarnates. We know JG does. The reason the Emperor, the New Man, was brought about was so that the shamans didn't have to reincarnate.

The Sensei, the literal sons of the Emperor (though it's explicit: the Emperor vanishes sharpish, kids never know their dad) are indeed immortal and have special powers. There's a massive conspiracy involving the hiding of their existence. They're also 'blanks' (think Tau rather than Pariah) and thus the Emperor is blind to their power.

The Emperor, when the shamans died, inherits all their worldly (and otherworldly) wisdom...eventually. There's a period (think Jesus <30years) when he's a 'regular guy'. At such a stage he could be doing anything, the 'New Man' (planned by the shamans) isn't about yet, just the vessel. Over the course of time, the Emperor makes Sensei, never knows about them or what can be done by using them. The Illuminati (played nowadays by the Cabal) seem to have the insight into how to employ the Sensei. Enter Abnett to shuffle things up. But that's okay because the last we properly seen of the Illuminati (even though The Inquisition War was republished a few times) was their having Exterminatus dropped on them by Salamanders in the 3rd Edition Rulebook.

How the reincarnation/immortality isn't at all well explained. Indeed, what we've got here is a tantalising glimpse hinting at 'old, old lore', think conspiracy pieced together with a mind towards the style of The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, as opposed to the outright prescription given in the Realms of Chaos books. We've got the mysterious man (who exist in setting), we've got vague knowledge about immortals in the setting and in reincarnation and vessels (Sebastian Thor the definitive case and, in my reading of it: Kaldor Draigo who makes for a fine Thorian receptacle for reincarnating old Empychops). This stuff, albeit more outré and fanciful, is part of the setting.

Why the Emperor isn't shepherded by immortals and perpetuals is probably better explained/hand-waved-away by the film Highlander.

My point, if anything, is: yes it complicates things. It's fusing old to new and giving newer still. I'd appreciate a bit more neatness, but it's still enjoyably neat (for my tastes).

As for the wolves: I don't see it the same way, but I see what you're getting at. (I'm also not happy with what I've said above as 'explanation', but it accounts for ... something.)

I have my own theory as to what that line means, but I won't clutter up this thread with it.

PM me if you'd like to hear it. I think the answer is actually in the new codex.

[ryng_sting]

Received book Monday, finished it in my lunch break today.

I was surprised to see Abnett given this one - the obvious choice, you might have thought, would have been Graham McNeil. I was even more surprised to find that I quite enjoyed it, since Abnett isn't my favourite horse in the Black Library stable.

Having everything unreel in almost documentary fashion was an inspired move. When you have war as seen by scores of inhabitants - in space, on land, in dreadnought sarcophagi - and war that includes sorcery and daemons, it helps to make things as matter-of-factly as possible. It also outlaws sentimentality. Whatever happens to one person is shown to pretty small compared to what's happening all over (and above ) Calth.

I also liked seeing Guilliman finally lose his temper and turn the air as blue as his armour. It helps to remind you even someone as cool as him has a boiling point.

The logistics were satisying, if a little different from what I expecting. From the way it was written up in the HH artbooks, I got the impression barely half the Ultramarines were there, with the Word Bearers making use of greater numbers, Titans, daemons and the element of surprise to compensate. Ventanus does his thing, Guilliman wins back the advantage in space, reinforcements arrive to finish the job.

Instead, of the 250,000 strong Ultramarines, 200,000 were there, attacked by a smaller number of Word Bearers; eventually they pull themselves back from the brink and barely drive the Word Bearers off, who have by this point finished their ritual in any case. The story has ended the myth that the Ultramarines were largely untouched by the Heresy.

I'd have liked a little more on Guilliman co-ordinating the pockets of survivors into an efficient fighting force, and winning back the advantage through each group - getting to see how his mind works, able to shift from the squad holding a watch tower to the big picture and back again. As it is, there's surprisingly little room for the state of the Ultramarine fleet, which still must be the largest belonging to a loyalist chapter even after the battle. Some kind of estimate of the survivors might have helped, but I'm guessing they're at least half the size they were before.

[nagash66]

ryng_sting- Ultra casualties can be estimated at 70% ground forces and 80% fleet assets from various pockets of information from the book itself ( or at least that my count), what we dont know if how many of the surviving Ultras got trapped on calth for the next couple of years.

[Kenzaburo]

uhm, just a short question, you guys. what makes you think that the emperor is 38k years old? because KNF mentions nietzsche being M2. that means 40k history records still start at 0 BC/AD. if the emperor was 38k, he would have been born M2, so in our day and time. as far as i understood it, big E is more likely to be 50k years old.

[Idaan]

He's 38k (well, 39 actually) from the perspective of M31, when the HH books are set.

[ChrisMurray]

I got the feeling that Oll reincarnated due to how different he was in each of his lives. I can't remember exact details off the top of my head at the moment, but there is definately mention that in some of his lives he smoked and in others he didn't. I can't think of a reason why he would smoke for one lifetime and then when he moves on\changes identity he would stop smoking only to take it back up in another identity. His handwriting too I took to as when he says was worse was different, but this one could be that he does more writing now and his handwriting has improved over the years, but it could still be a hint.

@Kenzaburo in the original fluff sources of 40k (possibly rougue trader I can't remember where it's from to be honest) there is the story of how the Emperor was created and it mentions what year this was. So we are able to work out his age at any chosen point in the background.

I hope that in future HH books we get the details of the space battle between the UM flagship and the WB flagship and of the Underground war. It seems that these books were deliberately set up from the way this book was written.

[Lupe]

@Kenzaburo in the original fluff sources of 40k (possibly rougue trader I can't remember where it's from to be honest) there is the story of how the Emperor was created and

Also, in Horus Rising, Part Three, chapter 1, there is a passage that suggests that the Emperor was born in Persia's ancient days

It was made in Persia, the year before the Emperor was born. The dreadful Sagittary.

Now, I know Persia has been an active power well into the early middle ages, but just a few rows earlier, there's another relevant quote, that suggests the Emperor was born towards the earlier periods of the ancient world (i.e. before or around the same time that the Zodiac was being developed). That gives us, if not a solid reference, at least a somewhat reliable timeframe to the Emperor's birth...

In Anatoly in his own childhood, the centaur had been a revered symbol. A rider upon a horse, so he said, armed with a bow. The most potent martial instrument of its age, conquering all before it.

[Kenzaburo]

ah, now i see the flaw in my math...going backwards from 40k instead of 30k. thanks for clearing up the obvious. should've noticed.

about that whole oll reincarnating thingy...as far as it is actually said in the book, he just has lived for a crapload of time. the different lives...well, anyone seen highlander? and the change of the handwriting? well, MY handwriting has changed in the past 10 years. smoking or not smoking? seriously, ever met ppl who smoke? some of my friends quit smoking on an annual basis. one year they do, one they don't.

and as far as i know, grammaticus can only reincarnate, because the cabal changed him that way. before, him and oll were supposedly alike in their "perpetual" way, having lived for very long times, but without being entirely invincible or anything.

also, oll's belongings he's kept through the ages and millenia, they would be kinda hard to keep if you are happily reincarnating away.
anyways, the truth about all this is kinda hard to tell right now, since only abnett knows what's behind it. and the information we got was vague enough that it's more down to each reader then pure facts we can use.

about KNF in general: loved the book. still have 30 pages to go, but it was one enjoyable thrill ride. i enjoyed the difference in style used by abnett for the entire novel, and at times the different styles in chapters and sub-chapters. this felt very different from, say, traitor general, which i only finished 2 weeks ago.
storywise i would have wished for more stuff about guilliman, but i like the overall portrayal of the 30k ultras. even though i never was a hater (2nd company player myself), i like how they act in here, how their beliefs and actions are displayed.

i would have liked to see more of abnett's strenght, characterisation, in here, though. so many characters with potential in this book that could use a bit more fleshing out. thiel, telemechrus, lamiad, gage, come to mind. also, wet leopard growls seem to be missing from the book, only to be replaced by "bastard", a seemingly favorite swear among the people of ultramar.

one more question though: the ultramar of 40k is no longer 500 worlds, right? because that's a lot of space. if macragge still ruled over that many worlds, they'd also need a lot more astartes for safeguarding it, i think. and if successors are doing part of that job, those would be actually under ultramar jurisdiction and command, something that only has been hinted at before but never admitted outright.

another question: so garro was sent to calth to pick up rubio. i haven't listened to "oath of moment" for a while, but did the sigilite know that calth was under attack? i don't remember garro being all that surprised about the devastation going on. and how the hell did he even get into orbit or close enough to the planet to make planetfall with the WB fleet dominating the system?

[flota]

from what i gather they could only contact 30,000 ultras at the time of that report, when planetary comunications are brought back online we dont get another estimate of KIAs, could be more could be less, we know they were hit hard.

i just finished mechanicum :P, and reading the book i got again the term noosphere (dont remember correct spelling), the adept in the book mentions that her system is new and few use it, but in KNF calth has this and they talk of this as is pretty common, someone made a mistake?

[Cenyu]

As far as I can tell, the "reappearance" of Tarik Torgaddon during the Summoning supervised by Erebus has not been discussed yet. During the naming of a variety of daemons, Erebus also mentions "Tormaggeddon". Before this, we are treated to something like a small moment of introspection or maybe even regret of the First Chaplain when Tarik's mortal remains pass him prior to the Summoning.

To the best of my knowledge, this sheds new light on what actually happens with Tarik Torgaddon after he gets killed off on Isstvan - he is collected alongside all other Space Marine corpses/gene seed to serve as the offering which in the end causes the Warp Storms... what I find interesting is, that he somehow is a daemon(host) now for a quite powerful daemon (if we take into account that Tormaggeddon is called alongside such illustrious names like Epidemius or N'Kari).

What do you think, will there be a "Tarik" comeback, possibly even an encounter in his new daemonic form with Loken as a proto-Grey Knight? This may be quite far-fetched from starting at an off-hand remark by Dan Abnett but I found the mentioning during reading KnF quite interesting.

By the way, I enjoyed Oll's storyline and am looking forward to his further appearances. While he seems to be immortal, to me he seems nowhere near as powerful as the Emperor or even John Grammaticus - he is a resigned, fatigued individual who has spent millennia as an average soldier - his flashbacks of Austerlitz or Verdun or even his retiring from the Guard regiment which led to him being on Calth all do not seem particularly glorious to me. As such, I really can envision him as both an "average joe" who has to overcome his frustration, limitations and fears to make a difference and as a nice way to add some kind of overall perspective to the setting due to his time-spanning experience.

[Nazguire]

As far as I can tell, the "reappearance" of Tarik Torgaddon during the Summoning supervised by Erebus has not been discussed yet. During the naming of a variety of daemons, Erebus also mentions "Tormaggeddon". Before this, we are treated to something like a small moment of introspection or maybe even regret of the First Chaplain when Tarik's mortal remains pass him prior to the Summoning.

To the best of my knowledge, this sheds new light on what actually happens with Tarik Torgaddon after he gets killed off on Isstvan - he is collected alongside all other Space Marine corpses/gene seed to serve as the offering which in the end causes the Warp Storms... what I find interesting is, that he somehow is a daemon(host) now for a quite powerful daemon (if we take into account that Tormaggeddon is called alongside such illustrious names like Epidemius or N'Kari).

What do you think, will there be a "Tarik" comeback, possibly even an encounter in his new daemonic form with Loken as a proto-Grey Knight? This may be quite far-fetched from starting at an off-hand remark by Dan Abnett but I found the mentioning during reading KnF quite interesting.

By the way, I enjoyed Oll's storyline and am looking forward to his further appearances. While he seems to be immortal, to me he seems nowhere near as powerful as the Emperor or even John Grammaticus - he is a resigned, fatigued individual who has spent millennia as an average soldier - his flashbacks of Austerlitz or Verdun or even his retiring from the Guard regiment which led to him being on Calth all do not seem particularly glorious to me. As such, I really can envision him as both an "average joe" who has to overcome his frustration, limitations and fears to make a difference and as a nice way to add some kind of overall perspective to the setting due to his time-spanning experience.

In the CV:HH art books, there is a picture of Tarik Torgaddon all daemonic like. When I first read Horus Rising, I was positive that this guy would turn traitor, and Little Horus wouldn't...because of that picture. Now it's starting to come together.

I really think that Know No Fear was also used as a way to start off a lot of little side stories and other novels to flesh out (read: cash in) the Horus Heresy storyline. We have off hand without the book in front of me...


-The duel between the Infidus Imperator and the Macragge's Honour (I think that's the name)
-Tarik 'Tormageddon' (whom I think will turn into an audio where he gets dominated by Loken/Cerberus.
-Ollanius the Pious and where he is going (I personally think Colchis)
-The characters Thiel and Ventanus (of which the latter has an exceptionally important role of being the first Ultramarine to step foot on conquered Colchis)

I sense many more audio novels, short stories and limited editions to be made yet...

[WarBoss PuG]

Any one notice the fluff has changed on whirlwinds... always thought they weren't around in the heresy ere due to chaos not having them! Now the smuff's has assault cannons and whirlwinds pre heresy... Joy!

[stormblade]

Tormageddon is a deamonship which appears in Salvation's reach

[trigger]

Any one notice the fluff has changed on whirlwinds... always thought they weren't around in the heresy ere due to chaos not having them! Now the smuff's has assault cannons and whirlwinds pre heresy... Joy!

The assault cannon came in just before the heresy , the reason chaos don't have it as it's harder to maintain and get ammo for than the reaper auto cannon.

I think your right on the whirlwind though. But then alot of fluff has changed , valdor dosnt cut bjorns arm off any more

[Havarel]

I'm doing second read of the book and picking up on some of the more subtle references, like the Illuminator pattern lasguns

Did anyone else notice in the section about the book of Lorgar the reference to the version given to Alpharius? Specifically that he will be given two versions, each subtly different. Damn you Abnett that's a beast of a line to have in this book! I badly want a sequel to Legion even more now!

[Fluxeor]

A lot of posts here debating the experiences of Oll making him more than an average joe.
For all intents and purposes Oll simply wants to be that average joe until he's shown Horus and Earth burning.
The book shows that Oll has extensive knowledge of combat from experience, and is exceptionally skilled in putting that experience to good use. He also seems to know the true nature of the Warp, Chaos and daemons, so far as remarking that the Word Bearers are idiots who only think they know the truth and he's able to see daemons true form (possibly? It's implied that he does) and knows how to kill or banish them.

Definately not an average-joe, but maybe he was once.

[Londinium]

I'm doing second read of the book and picking up on some of the more subtle references, like the Illuminator pattern lasguns

Did anyone else notice in the section about the book of Lorgar the reference to the version given to Alpharius? Specifically that he will be given two versions, each subtly different. Damn you Abnett that's a beast of a line to have in this book! I badly want a sequel to Legion even more now!

Deliverance Lost kinda works as a semi sequel to Legion in a way I guess.