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Thread: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

  1. #1

    WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    I know tournaments require everything to be wysiwyg but this is also a hobby that revolves around models and conversions as well.. so where is the line? A lot of people like to use different Space Marine chapter specific models to represent other marine forces and that is generally considered to be ok. Does that only apply to space marines though?

    Can I use daemonettes or dark eldar wyches to represent Death Cult assassins in a Cortez GK list that "counts as" Renegade Guard?

    Can I use a Chaos Sorcerer Terminator Lord model to represent a Herald of Khorne w/bloodcrusher in a Daemon list that "counts as" a lone Sorcerer summoning the daemons?

    I'm obviously not talking about using an Ork to represent a Fire warrior, but was wondering how people decide what the difference is between following the rules vs being creative.

  2. #2
    Penance of the Elder Gods wyvirn's Avatar
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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    It's an incredibly subjective argument, I can't really say without seeing the model and the intent of the player (This looks cool versus gaming the system). There really isn't a hard and fast line.

    In the end, this is just a game that two people will play between themselves. If those two people can agree in the situation, great. If not, every opinion on the internet isn't worth a reroll.
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    Chapter Master Chem-Dog's Avatar
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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    The line, to me, is a very obvious one. As long as everything is easily identified on the table without having to ask what it is, you should be golden. If your version of unit X is a little on the abstract side, that's fine too BUT ensure there is no confusion. Coteaz DC Assassins represented by Daemonettes is fine, for example, right up until you decide you'll use exactly the same models to represent Heavy Bolter Servitors or different models to represent the assassins in another unit.

    To cover all bases you could provide a crib-sheet with your army list that simply identifies what each unit counts as or even paint the model's type on it's base for absolute transparency but on the whole I think it's more satisfying if you can accomplish a substitution without resorting to such measures.

    Be mindful also, that just because you've made these alternates and you know exactly what they all are as you've built and painted them, somebody else's brief glance may not be able to do the same. I recently had this happen to me as a player couldn't easily identify a Commissar from the squad he was in. To me it was obvious, he was the only one in the unit with Horns, a bolt pistol and a tiger-skin cape, but those subtle(!) differences passed my opponent by as otherwise the commissar looked very much the same as the rest of the 30 men he was with.

    In essence, be clear and avoid anything which could confuse the opponent, whatever your flamers look like (for example) make sure they look like that through the army, because "that THAT flamer with the yellow canister is actually a Multimelta, and the one that's yellow with the black dot is actually a powerfist" will win you no friends.
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  4. #4

    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    A)Try to represent all the options you're taking WYSIWYG style;
    B)All non-infantry (and some infantry) conversions can be seen as gaming the system in some way; it's really a mixed bag if you'll be called on it. For example I've been converting a valkyrie using a devilfish; but if I don't go buy the $8 or whatever base for it I'm likely to receive flak. Likewise the wings are smaller so it might be immeasurably more difficult to hit it with a blast; and any opponent who does miss with said blast on that 1x2" space will potentially throw a fit. Meh.
    C)Try to make the conversion obvious; as stated above

    Those "conversions" you're talking of should be fine to most people; they "feel" close enough for the most part that people will get over them. There isn't really a limit other than trying to appease the opponent. It's mildly insulting that you use the example "I'm not trying to use an Ork as a firewarrior" because I know for a fact that there are "Rebel Grotz" armies that utilize Tau rules; and others that utilize IG rules. The idea behind that is that it's a "Total Conversion" army. This is much different than let's say putting orks in an actual firewarriors squad and saying they're the markerlight troops.

  5. #5

    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    As mentioned already, conversions are fine but you should (And more importantly anyone else should.) be able to identify what each model is preferably without having to ask to many questions.

    Things should be equipped with the right weapon and be approximately the right size for the thing they represent and probably have a passing resemblance to that. For example, I do would not have a problem with people using ogre models as Ogrins if they were suitably equipped and painted up to fit in with the rest of the army, similarly your example of Death Cultists would be fine.

    A Leman Russ with a bigger turret being called a Baneblade would be unacceptable though, however any suitable sized tank with the correct style of guns in roughly the right place would be OK to represent either.

    At the end of the day I have many converted models of all sorts of things but I make an effort to make them look like what they are supposed to be, at least to me. (And so hopefully to anyone else.)

    But it is supposed to be fun, a game to be enjoyed, so I think as long as your oponent is happy with what you have to represent whatever, that really is all that matters.

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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    . . . What he said.

    Quality helps. A beautifully painted and well themed unit will win more friends than the curse of the Generic Grey Marines.

  7. #7

    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    It's indeed something that you must take with a pinch of salt when working on a force with that intent. While conversions, sculpting and 'counting as' models can really bring some forces to life and breathe some fresh fluff into a game it can also do just as much bad.

    If you intent is to have some fun, be smart about it. Plot what you are going to do, find your reasoning for what you are doing. Why does my 'counts as Calgar' not have two powerfists? Well he wields a Thunderhammer instead, it represents the wargear specialty of Calgar's fists without becoming to confusing. If on the otherhand you decided to arm him with a power sword and bolt pistol with the exact same intention, it becomes a little more confusing and a little less fun...it starts to bleed into the wrong side of the fight.

    That being, you couldn't afford the model, be bothered to make a similar one or simply wanted to use a strong character and decided that your captain you made from bits and bobs will do fine to represent a terminator armed special hero.

    My current Ork force uses normal Warbosses armed exactly like the Ork special characters to utilize they're rules while playing games. They have different names but for all gaming purposes are the name characters, which I inform my opponents about during competitive play and whom my friends already know and fear (hur, hur) during play.
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    Chapter Master Havock's Avatar
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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    WYSIWYG isn't 'the law', it is a rule and it has a purpose. If someone adheres to the purpose but breaks the rule, it should be fine.

    Daemonettes as Death Cult is easily identifiable and can't really be confused unless you use them for other stuff too (in which case it is proxying), brain damage notwithstanding I don't think anyone really mixes it up there.

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    Chapter Master Wishing's Avatar
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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    Obviously this is simply a question of personal preference that will depend entirely on the specific model and how it fits in the army it is part of.

    Can I use daemonettes or dark eldar wyches to represent Death Cult assassins in a Cortez GK list that "counts as" Renegade Guard?

    - Sure, as long as they look good and make sense thematically in the context of the rest of the list (eg. it is a slaanesh cult theme). I can imagine daemonettes as being freaky looking mutant death cultists.

    Can I use a Chaos Sorcerer Terminator Lord model to represent a Herald of Khorne w/bloodcrusher in a Daemon list that "counts as" a lone Sorcerer summoning the daemons?

    - I personally don't like this one. A juggernaut goes on a dreadnought base and a terminator does not. Counts-as models should be about the same size as the models they represent. Also when the model has daemon rules it should be some form of daemon, not a marine. Just my personal preference.

  10. #10

    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing View Post

    Can I use a Chaos Sorcerer Terminator Lord model to represent a Herald of Khorne w/bloodcrusher in a Daemon list that "counts as" a lone Sorcerer summoning the daemons?

    - I personally don't like this one. A juggernaut goes on a dreadnought base and a terminator does not. Counts-as models should be about the same size as the models they represent. Also when the model has daemon rules it should be some form of daemon, not a marine. Just my personal preference.
    Ok, I was unaware that the two are different base sizes.. I agree that "counts as" models should be the same base size

  11. #11
    No one's hero Inquisitor Engel's Avatar
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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    If it's not using official models for WYSIWYG, it should be consistent and obvious what things are. Don't tell me Carnifex A is a Tyrannofex, Carnifex B is a Tervigon and Carnifex C is... a Carnifex. IMHO this is why I HATE playing Orks... *grumble grumble*

  12. #12

    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    I think the OP is confusing WYSIWYG and counts as. Whilst they impact on each other they aren't really the same thing. The intent of WYSIWYG is simply that an opponent should be able to identify at a glance what a model represents and what it is armed with. The model should be equipped with the weapons visable on the model and all relevant equipment should be modelled. So if the model has a melta gun it should be equipped with one, if a character has a laser lance then one should be visable on the model.

    Using counts as shouldn't be a problem as long as it preserves the idea of being able to tell at a glance what I unit is and what it is armed with. This basically comes down to making good choices for your counts as models and, as people have said, being consistent and having a clear, logical theme that when explained to your opponent makes it obvious what units are.

    In a friendly environment whether your use of counts as is acceptable is up to your opponent, in a tournament it is up to the organisers. However, this is a hobby that encourages creativity so as long as it isn't highly confusing/badly implemented/modelled for advantage (i.e. counts as models should be of similar size to what they are representing) I couldn't see anyone ever objecting.

  13. #13

    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    As an example in my Deathwing army all my terminators that have thunder hammers are instead modeled with the halberds from the GK sprues. They also have their stormshields though and it's consistent throughout the whole army. It's very easy for someone to remember that those are counts as thunder hammers. If I started mixing in actual thunder hammer bits it would be hard to tell apart and would no longer be WYSIWYG.

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    Commander madprophet's Avatar
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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    I am a big fan of conversions and counts as. I just made Ogryns out of old Battlemasters ogres - I used the shoota arm from the Ork warboss from the AoBR boxed set but a Shoota is close enough to a Ripper Gun to not cause too much confusion

    I am currently working on Rough Rider conversions to make them more "Cossack"-like. These are more look changes than actual counts as conversions. I made some rough riders out of I-Kore bikers too - they are pure counts as, though.

    I am a firm believer in the Rule of Cool - if it looks good, it is good - but your opponent needs to be able to keep it straight.
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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    Quote Originally Posted by wyvirn View Post
    It's an incredibly subjective argument, I can't really say without seeing the model and the intent of the player (This looks cool versus gaming the system). There really isn't a hard and fast line.

    In the end, this is just a game that two people will play between themselves. If those two people can agree in the situation, great. If not, every opinion on the internet isn't worth a reroll.
    While it is subjective, let's put this in perspective here: it will be very clear what is meant to represent what in most cases, and it will be even more clear when someone has done something purely out of psychosis.

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    Chapter Master TheDoctor's Avatar
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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike3791 View Post
    I know tournaments require everything to be wysiwyg but this is also a hobby that revolves around models and conversions as well.. so where is the line? A lot of people like to use different Space Marine chapter specific models to represent other marine forces and that is generally considered to be ok. Does that only apply to space marines though?

    Can I use daemonettes or dark eldar wyches to represent Death Cult assassins in a Cortez GK list that "counts as" Renegade Guard?

    Can I use a Chaos Sorcerer Terminator Lord model to represent a Herald of Khorne w/bloodcrusher in a Daemon list that "counts as" a lone Sorcerer summoning the daemons?

    I'm obviously not talking about using an Ork to represent a Fire warrior, but was wondering how people decide what the difference is between following the rules vs being creative.
    One of my friends has a Grey Knight Henchmen army.
    -The Death cultists are guardsmen with kroot heads/regular human heads and either kroot rifle thingies or just dual swords
    -His Crusaders are guardsmen with halberds and shields from the warriors of chaos kit.

    Pretty able to be distinguished between the two, and it's pretty creative and/or cheap.
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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    Personally, if I'm doing a pick up game and I see a count as army, I'm really weary of playing against them. If it will take more effort to try to remember every little thing about them then to play, what's the point? It's not like I'm going to be consistently playing against that army. If it's between friends, then why not, since once I learn to remember which unit/weapon represents what, I'm going to be playing against that for a long time.
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    Chapter Master Angelwing's Avatar
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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    Quote Originally Posted by Havock View Post
    WYSIWYG isn't 'the law', it is a rule and it has a purpose. If someone adheres to the purpose but breaks the rule, it should be fine.

    Daemonettes as Death Cult is easily identifiable and can't really be confused unless you use them for other stuff too (in which case it is proxying), brain damage notwithstanding I don't think anyone really mixes it up there.

    "I am playing Daemonhunters, hey look a Daemonette. Oh noes, the confusion! JUDGE!"


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    Or those daemonettes might be representing daemonhosts.

    As always, discuss any potentially confusing models with your opponent before the game.

  19. #19
    Chapter Master Chem-Dog's Avatar
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    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    Quote Originally Posted by Inquisitor Engel View Post
    If it's not using official models for WYSIWYG, it should be consistent and obvious what things are. Don't tell me Carnifex A is a Tyrannofex, Carnifex B is a Tervigon and Carnifex C is... a Carnifex. IMHO this is why I HATE playing Orks... *grumble grumble*
    Because....they.....use too... many proxy Carnifexes?!
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  20. #20

    Re: WYSIWYG vs Creativity

    Depends

    In tournaments its nice when people are fairly close to what they are fielding. Lets say an IG trooper has a melta-gun, he should be armed with a melta-gun, however the look of the IG can be different. Ive seen lots of IG converted from bretonnian peasents and that is creative and fine. Also certain armies promote count-as models as being run, such as Space Marines and their special characters counting-as the ones in the book (like Vulkan counting as your captain in your home built Dancing Unicorn Space Marine Chapter). In these cases is probably just easier to say hes Vulkan, then show the rules to your opponent so they understand.

    Against friends, who cares. one time me and a buddie represented two armies we didn't even have with trays and paper to get a feel for the rules. In pick up games same deal with tournies, but im sure it could be more laid back depending on who you play, the local rules lawyer probably wouldn't be a good option then.

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