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Thread: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

  1. #61
    Chaplain ltsobel's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    Got the book at Salute. It was ok, i agree with the earlier poster that some of the stories seem to be increasingly based on quick intro, hidden vital McGuffin, last minute twist rinse and repeat - something different would be nice.
    I liked the Fulgrim story as it was trying to be different and was worked into the larger metastory. I feel the Horus Heresey series has lost this generally in a rush to get as many money making books out as possible. The coherent story in the first 3/6 books has disappeared into a flood of publications covering every viewpoint. Its nice to see what all the legions were doing but the larger plot seems to have been sacrificed for quick releases (although i realise this is a cash cow for BL and they as a company are dedicated to making money!)
    The IH story i felt was a bit meh and struggled to find a way in with the protagonists,i find FMs motivations unconvincing - other primarchs seem to have been done so much better. The DA story is so-so but im very confused about what were supposed to be Lionel's reasoning, it seems to change as authors do. The AL story seemed to suffer from the same McGuffinitus as the other one and it seems a professional hazard that any AL texts have to be twisty :P

    I'll keep buying them as soon as they come out for the moment but hope it begins to pick up soon - hopefully with the BA books. Thinking about this though i suppose so much of the established backstory is based on huge battles and it must be difficult to write the same stories about such without being repetative, hence the focus on small groups in the last few books. Also they need ADB to write some more
    Last edited by ltsobel; 28-04-2012 at 17:36.
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  2. #62
    Chapter Master shadowhawk2008's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    I disagree that the coherency has been lost. Know No Fear is an excellent sequel to both The First Heretic and to Aurelian. Deliverance Lost is an excellent sequel to Legion and Raven's Flight. Battle for the Abyss is the odd one out since AFAIK, there is absolutely no mention of it in Know No Fear. Nemesis gives that alternate viewpoint away from the Legions but is still a decent sequel to the first four novels. Together, Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels are good at what Nemesis offers, a detached, alternate view of the heresy. The Garro audios complement all the other stuff brilliantly too, especially Oath of Moment + Know No Fear.

    Aaron's next, Betrayer, and Dan's next, The Unremembered Empire are both as direct sequels to Know No Fear as you can get to the original trilogy. Dan has said as much. Jim's next, Sword of Justice is a great midpoint between his two current audios, all of which continue the story of Garro from, again, an alternate viewpoint to the "directness" of the Heresy from the legion viewpoints.

    Nick's Salamanders novel, coming out next year, is a sequel to the first three novels, to Legion, to Promethean Sun and even to his short story Forgotten Sons in that it involves a Salamanders team going back to Istvaan to find out what happened to Vulkan. And this, in a tangential manner, ties in to Garro: Legion of One.

    Sure, you are not getting a direct sequel like the original trilogy or what you get from the Ultramarines novels or the Night Lords novels, but there are a lot of themes and plot threads and characters and events being carried out from one novel to the next, one audio to the next, one anthology to the next.
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  3. #63
    Chapter Master Xisor's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowhawk2008 View Post
    Battle for the Abyss is the odd one out since AFAIK, there is absolutely no mention of it in Know No Fear.
    I'd say that's slightly missing an opportunity available in placing BftA. It's not so much a prequel to KNF as much as it is (surely) an effective prequel to four books: Mechanicum (showing the complicity & alliance of Mars), Prospero Burns/A Thousand Sons (the roles of Mhotep, Skraal, Cestus and Brynngar parallel very well the other tales; I think it'd be view much more favourably if it'd been held back for post-Age of Darkness, and if the WB/Ultras were more interesting in it!) and, this is critical, Unremembered Empire.

    The whole intent of the Furious Abyss is to annihilate Macragge and begin the process of mopping up the Ultramarines whilst the Legion itself is busy at Calth. Of course, given the outcome of the novel, all that we're likely to hear of it is the investigation of the crash-sight and the tales of the investigators are they piece together a vague idea of what's happened and why an entirely new type of starship is crashing into a moon without any sort of heralding.

    Hell, it works even as a precursor to some of the shorts in Age of Darkness too and somewhat tangentially leads into The Outcast Dead too.

    Otherwise, you're bang on, SH, there's massive overlaps and continuations of themes without just hammering and retreading old ground or sticking close to the same few characters. Then again, certain characters are undeniably spread through it all: Garro, Typhon, Fabius, the Imperial Fists in general etc are getting quite a share of cameos and movement.
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  4. #64
    Chapter Master shadowhawk2008's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    Indeed.There are a lot of connections all over the place :-) Just gotta look for them.
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  5. #65
    Commander Nineswords's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    Quote Originally Posted by SunTzu View Post
    The Third Paradox!

    The Emperor upholds a teleological scheme for the future of man, unifying and perfecting humanity through the intense application of martial violence, and I will endeavour to uphold it.

  6. #66
    Commander Nineswords's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    My appraisal, analysis and unresolved issues from The Serpent Beneath.

    Last edited by Nineswords; 06-05-2012 at 00:24.
    The Emperor upholds a teleological scheme for the future of man, unifying and perfecting humanity through the intense application of martial violence, and I will endeavour to uphold it.

  7. #67
    Chapter Master Xisor's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    Excellent, Nineswords (and others in the thread) - your discussions & thoughts here are extremely interesting!

    On the armour:
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    "Xisor's lucky he didn't get bundled to the ground and shot in the head six times."- Charax
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  8. #68
    Commander Nineswords's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xisor View Post


    Quote Originally Posted by Xisor View Post


    Quote Originally Posted by Xisor View Post


    Last thing:

    Last edited by Nineswords; 06-05-2012 at 15:52.
    The Emperor upholds a teleological scheme for the future of man, unifying and perfecting humanity through the intense application of martial violence, and I will endeavour to uphold it.

  9. #69
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    With both Angels of Darkness (40K, I know) and this story, I just feel like Gav Thorpe gets the Dark Angels. It seems that others have wildly different opinions, but the two stories that he's provided feel like a great look into the torn soul of the legion and the primarch.

    On another note, is there evidence that anyone else is distrustful of Guilliman, or is this only in the mind of Lion El'?

  10. #70

    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    Fulgrim story - excellent, really provides an insight into EC post 'turn' and advances the storyline
    Dark Angels+Alpha legion stories - short story themselves are nothing special really and have no significance. Both merely ladle on the same themes as previous books - how niether chapter is what they seem. Possible interesting future AL storyt set up though

    Iron Hands- dire, does absolutely nothing of any relevance. Having read the salamanders books, the salamander HH book and this I don't believe Nick Kyme would get published if he wasn't a BL boss. All are full of inconsistencies with no subtlety in thier foreshadowing. I really hope he doesn't get a significant HH book to write.
    Last edited by Steve54; 18-05-2012 at 06:02. Reason: Wrong legion

  11. #71
    Chapter Master shadowhawk2008's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    There is no NL novella in The Primarchs. There is however an Alpha Legion one. Did you read the novel? And pray, what inconsistencies are there? And you'll be absolutely DEVASTED to know that Nick is writing a novella set after the Istvaan Massacre on Istvaan itself. Scorched Earth I believe is the name.
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  12. #72
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    I wouldn't say that his story was the best of the four, but I enjoyed the Ferrus Manus/Iron Hands short. I choose to believe (glass half-full) that the story was deliberately heavy-handed and blunt as this reflects the nature of this particular legion. Also, enjoyed the look into Ferrus' psyche, that his irrational behavior is due to a 'complex' of not wanting to be seen as the weak link.

  13. #73

    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowhawk2008 View Post
    There is no NL novella in The Primarchs. There is however an Alpha Legion one. Did you read the novel? And pray, what inconsistencies are there? And you'll be absolutely DEVASTED to know that Nick is writing a novella set after the Istvaan Massacre on Istvaan itself. Scorched Earth I believe is the name.
    Typo - I meant AL. I wouldn't say I'm DEVASTATED but I expect it to be more Battle for the Abyss than a Thousand Sons. Regarding the IH story its just so crudely written - machinery is better, machinery is better - your flesh is weak, your flesh is weak, Then machinery fails and flesh saves them. Compare it to ABD and its like its a child writing in crayon. Foreshadowing is fine but a skilled writer should do it with subtlety. Being short though its not as bad as the salamander series -chaplain/librarian who sees into your soul but misses everything of significance, Star Trek style we'll keep running into new groups of people who can die so no actual characters have to etc

    That Nick Kym has HH novels+significant 40k series just isn't warranted on ability as a writer

  14. #74
    Chapter Master shadowhawk2008's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    The success of his novels and his work obviously argues against your judgement but that's fine. Not everything is for everybody. But I feel compelled to say that taking potshots at him just because he is also one of the editors at BL is a really low blow.
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  15. #75

    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    Not really when his editorial status gets him titles that surpass his ability as a writer

  16. #76
    Chapter Master shadowhawk2008's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve54 View Post
    Not really when his editorial status gets him titles that surpass his ability as a writer
    According to YOU. Not the editors. And it is their evaluation that matters. Christian Dunn is the longest-serving editor at Black Library IIRC (he's worked since the early days of Inferno I believe). I'm sure HE can tell who is good and not. Anyway, this discussion detracts from the purpose of the thread.

    Deepsix put it well. The novella reflects the character of the legion and that is a good thing. Otherwise it would not be an Iron Hands story.
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  17. #77
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    In relation to the bull-headedness of Ferrus: Other than the Alphas, are there any Primarchs/Legions whose allegiances weren't completely black and white? By that I mean, anyone else who didn't fit into either 'My daddy knows best,' or 'These demons sound really convincing?' Alpha seems to have the best interests of humanity at heart, did any of the other Primarchs take that approach, or was it strictly a taking sides deal either with or against the Emperor? (I haven't read the two LE novellas, so I may be missing some nuance)

  18. #78
    Chapter Master Xisor's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepsix81 View Post
    In relation to the bull-headedness of Ferrus: Other than the Alphas, are there any Primarchs/Legions whose allegiances weren't completely black and white? By that I mean, anyone else who didn't fit into either 'My daddy knows best,' or 'These demons sound really convincing?' Alpha seems to have the best interests of humanity at heart, did any of the other Primarchs take that approach, or was it strictly a taking sides deal either with or against the Emperor? (I haven't read the two LE novellas, so I may be missing some nuance)
    The Lion & Guilliman both have rather odd views. The Lion ostensibly sits very much in the 'daddy knows best' camp, yet he declares that he definitely wants to ensure the Emperor survives - an Imperium without the Emperor is worthless. Or something to that effect.

    Guilliman, by contrast, admits to himself in Rules of Engagement that the ultimate goal/outcome/endgame of the isn't about whether the Emperor survives, but whether the Imperium survives and endures.

    There's suggestion that after Ferrus' death, portions of the Iron Hands turn traitor. (Which is hardly surprising - if there's loyalists in the Traitor legions, one would imagine that by reflection there'd be traitors in the Loyalist Legions.)

    With the Blood Angels, White Scars, Imperial Fists, Ravenguard and so forth, there's a bit less leeway or room for variation. Nevertheless, it's telling in the early meeting of Sigismund of the Imperial Fists and Loken of the Sons of Horus that Sigismund is just as disenfranchised with the 'Imperial Utopia' as any of the Alpha Legion: words to the effect of 'the Great Crusade never ends' were used; which is pretty dissenting, really (and arguably in stark opposition to Rogal Dorn's outlook, if only we knew more).

    Finally, with Mortarion and Typhon of the Death Guard, we know that Typhon is much more invested in the 'these demons sound really convincing' side of it - so much so he has to go to highly elaborate lengths to 'truly' bring Mortarion & Co. over to the Nurgle camp. (This could be applied to Horus & Abaddon too - Horus believes in challenging the Emperor and reforming the Imperium, Abaddon believes in the supremacy of the Space Marines.)
    "Never! The bandwagon will leave without us!"- Sojourner
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  19. #79
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    One of thing on Feat of Iron. I like the node fight with Santar etc , but
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hatl View Post
    ALL SHALL FALL BEFORE THE ENDLESS CRUSADE! HERESY IS WEAKNESS! HUMANITY SHALL PREVAIL, WITH THE EMPROR'S WILL AS ITS STANDARD AND WATCHWORD! ONWARD, MY BROTHERS!

    Seriously, if you're such a **** that you need a Chaos god to back you up in any fight you enter you deserve to get murdered. Real men do it by force of their own badass. And don't even get me started on those weak-ass mother **** psyker witch losers.

  20. #80
    Chapter Master boogle's Avatar
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    Re: The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

    It's a tie-in the grahams next book called angel exterminatus
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