The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

[shadowhawk2008]

It's a tie-in the grahams next book called angel exterminatus

Indeed. The two novellas are linked by that as are The Lion and The Serpent Beneath as a "duology".

[RadiO]

Regarding The Lion;

When El'Jonson asks Corswain how he'd feel if he was told the Dark Angels weren't going to return to Terra, isn't the Lion just seeing what happen if he asked his own legion to do what Guilliman has done? The Ultramarines must have sat on the sidelines for years pretending to fight the Salamanders and such while the galaxy burns, and all with little apparent complaint from the legion's officers and men.
But when El'Jonson poses a similar question to Corswain, he immediately goes "What? But we have to fight Horus!". Which probably pleases El'Jonson, to be honest. Notice how the Lion drops the conversation immediately after replying, "who mentioned Horus?". If he's not confortable with the idea that an apparently Loyalist Primarch may not fully commit themselves to fighting the traitors, Corswain probably isn't ready to handle the concept of an assualt on Ultramar (which seems to be where El'Jonson is aiming towards)

[boogle]

I believe the lion doesn't trust Guilliman at all and sees him as much of a threat as Hours himself.

Does anyone else feel that the main struggle with feat of iron is the fact that we know the end product (the death of Ferris) so it becomes an irrelevant story within the heresy? If it were a 40k story, written before Fulgrim, then it might have worked a bit better.

[shadowhawk2008]

But that's the thing!! Just like with Fulgrim, Ferrus is offered the chance to change the course of the Heresy. It also shows that there are so many similaritied between the two, irrespective of what their ultimate fates were. The novella is a far more compelling and powerful piece thsn most people give it credit for.

[DietDolphin]

But that's the thing!! Just like with Fulgrim, Ferrus is offered the chance to change the course of the Heresy. It also shows that there are so many similaritied between the two, irrespective of what their ultimate fates were. The novella is a far more compelling and powerful piece thsn most people give it credit for.

I really liked it too. It really flesh out Ferrus which he desperately needed. I couldn't help but laugh when

Ferrus's answer to everything is "hit it with my hammer", I literally laughed when he smashed the emperor on the throne

However the big difference between fulgrim and Ferrus is that Ferrus wouldn't even consider listening, where as Fulgrim wasn't as stubborn initially, and he had a daemon blade yelling "killkillkill!" as well. Though I think this was to highlight Ferrus headstrong determined nature, unshakably loyal (the title Feat of Iron really cements this idea)

I do have a two questions though:

When Ferrus sees the statues of the primarchs, I knew who they all were except the "horse with the wild mane", was that the Khan?

Also at the end it talks about there being another in the battle kings realm "he who would install an heir... One who was lost". The battle king is Guilliman, but anyone have idea who they are talking about (it doesn't sound like Fulgrim)

[SunTzu]

But that's the thing!! Just like with Fulgrim, Ferrus is offered the chance to change the course of the Heresy. It also shows that there are so many similaritied between the two, irrespective of what their ultimate fates were. The novella is a far more compelling and powerful piece thsn most people give it credit for.

I found it neither compelling nor powerful, so not sure what that means for any objective statement of what the novella "is".

Foreshadowing is lathered on with a trowel, nobody's actions or motives seem to make much sense, and the "moral of the story" was like watching an episode of Thundercats: "I've learned something today... biology and machines are both good and it's important to play nicely with your friends". It was a load of rubbish.

[shadowhawk2008]

I found it neither compelling nor powerful, so not sure what that means for any objective statement of what the novella "is".

Foreshadowing is lathered on with a trowel, nobody's actions or motives seem to make much sense, and the "moral of the story" was like watching an episode of Thundercats: "I've learned something today... biology and machines are both good and it's important to play nicely with your friends". It was a load of rubbish.

Its impossible to have an objectivity when you are talking about any kind of media, whether it be books or movies or music or whatever else. People talk about what they like and what they don't like and everything in between.

What worked for me, didn't work for you. /shrug

[SunTzu]

Exactly my point.

[Steve54]

I found it neither compelling nor powerful, so not sure what that means for any objective statement of what the novella "is".

Foreshadowing is lathered on with a trowel, nobody's actions or motives seem to make much sense, and the "moral of the story" was like watching an episode of Thundercats: "I've learned something today... biology and machines are both good and it's important to play nicely with your friends". It was a load of rubbish.

Exactly my views on it, typical of the author

[nagash66]

I found it neither compelling nor powerful, so not sure what that means for any objective statement of what the novella "is".

Foreshadowing is lathered on with a trowel, nobody's actions or motives seem to make much sense, and the "moral of the story" was like watching an episode of Thundercats: "I've learned something today... biology and machines are both good and it's important to play nicely with your friends". It was a load of rubbish.

Have to agree, Kyme has never impressed me but this was lackluster even for him.

[Deepsix81]

Observations and comments looking forward:

(1) Interested in reading more about Lucius, but other than the 'Angels Exterminatus' tale with Perturabo, I don't know if I have anymore interest in Fulgrim's band of mischief-makers.

(2) What is Angels Exterminatus, and what the heck do all of those crystals have to do with it?

(3) Would like to see more about the workings of the Iron Hands without Ferrus, especially with the idea of non-loyal elements added in.

(4) I don't know if there are enough books in all of creation to adequately satisfy my fascination with both the 1st and 20th legions.

[Ragnarfan_12]

what short story is it that Russ drops out to defend an imperial world? :S

[boogle]

Observations and comments looking forward:

(1) Interested in reading more about Lucius, but other than the 'Angels Exterminatus' tale with Perturabo, I don't know if I have anymore interest in Fulgrim's band of mischief-makers.

(2) What is Angels Exterminatus, and what the heck do all of those crystals have to do with it?

(3) Would like to see more about the workings of the Iron Hands without Ferrus, especially with the idea of non-loyal elements added in.

(4) I don't know if there are enough books in all of creation to adequately satisfy my fascination with both the 1st and 20th legions.

http://black-librarium.forumgratuit....graham-mcneill this may help in a small way

[stormblade]

nobody's actions or motives seem to make much sense,h.

How so!
IH have a goal with some nodes, something- somthing and go about achiving it.
eldar are a standardised punching bag and choose to get themselves killed as usual
Ferrus likes to bash stuff with a hammer

plain as daylight!

[DDM]

I have only read the Fulrgim story so far, but here's my take:

Obviously, McNeill is trying to occlude the truth of who Fulgrim actually is right now. He asserts his identity at the end, but daemons, as we all know, have a bit of a lying problem. However, no evidence is provided after the fact to dispute "Fulgrim's" claim, so barring a later revelation, we can only speculate.

However, the following leans me more toward the "Actually Fulgrim" camp:

• Fulgrim refers to the other primarchs as "my brothers," even when he's just talking to himself.
• The inner voice talks an awful lot like a daemon, arguing that true freedom can only be obtained by absolute power, promising knowledge and an ascent to the heavens if Fulgrim will only let him out. I find it hard to believe that Fulgrim would be talking this way to the daemon.

This is by no means a certain thing, and others will view it differently. There is enough ambiguity in the dialogue for it to go either way.

Whelp, that's all for now. Looking forward to the next story!

[SunTzu]

My view was a bit more meta:

The Fulgrim/daemon thing was somewhat unresolved before. It seems like it would be completely pointless to go to all the effort of writing a novella just to... leave things somewhat unresolved. "Here's a hundred thousand words to tell you precisely nothing!", or whatever. So, I figure we are supposed to take it at face value - Fulgrim kicked out the daemon and was telling the truth about doing so. Otherwise what was the point in the story?

[Ragnarfan_12]

I was just thinknig and what would you guys rather have It actually be him or it still be the demon?

[SunTzu]

Not massively bothered, but I quite liked it when he was the daemon. Not many of the Primarchs actually die, and it seemed like a lesson in the harshness of the galaxy that we "lost" another Primarch. Fulgrim beating the daemon is a little bit too "Primarks r teh awesum" to sit entirely comfortably with me... except... Primarchs actually are quite awesome, so maybe it all works out. Meh, either way really.

[Steve54]

I wonder if the reconnning in the HH series will include more Primarchs actually dieing? One of the AL twins or the loyalist ones with unknown whereabouts - Vulcan, Khan, Corax or even Russ+Dorn

[shadowhawk2008]

That'd be severe retconning because the missing loyalist Primarchs are all prophecied to return at the End of Times and are to fight the last war alongside the Emperor against Chaos. This is a central concept with the Grey Knights, the Space Wolves, Salamanders and so on. Vulkan is to return when his sons have found all his missing (deliberately hidden) artefacts, hence why the office of the Forgefather is so important to the Salamanders' central beliefs. The Space Wolves sort of have a similar thing re: Russ' armour. The Khan is said to have disappeared hunting teh Dark Eldar who attacked Chogoris sometime after the Heresy. Corax has plain disappeared and there is nothing more about him sadly.

The thing is, if there is a retcon and more loyalist Primarchs are killed, it totally upsets the balance of power between the survivors re: Codex Astartes. And will also devalue Dorn's stubborness and reluctance which almost caused another civil war. He *did* have the support of some of his brothers against the Codex, Russ for one.