The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

[Ragnarfan_12]

yea but Luther came and got the lion itsn ot like he was alone his entire life like curze was and LOL i agree with the angron comparison

[Wazzahamma]

The Lion has always been a cultured savage. Brought up in the chaos saturated forests of Caliban, a Death World, he was forced to adapt and become the apex predator to survive the nightmares given form that inhabited the area. Hell, he couldn't even speak until he was tutored by Luther. He's constantly suspicious, forever paranoid because that's what it took for him to survive at all. The parallel with Curze is brought up in Savage Weapons.

My take on his murder of Nemiel is that he let slip; at his core, the Lion is still a savage; he was shaped by the forests of Caliban and his shot at nobility has always been a facade, albeit a very heartfelt facade -- the projection of who he wished he could be. In the chaos of that moment aboard his flagship, the savage he worked so hard to bury lashed out at Nemiel before the Lion could gain control of himself again. He's simply a very primal being who tried to master himself, hence his desire to control any given situation; in order to continue his pursuit, he needs to essentially know what he's in for. The Heresy brings out the savage because it fulfills his darkest desires in that it confirms his paranoia.

His buried, true self agrees with the Night Haunter but he wishes he didn't, because he wants to be more. Curze no longer does -- and that's the key difference.

In no way, shape or form does this make him disloyal to the Emperor or guilty of treason, as SunTzu suggested. Granted, he's entitled to his own opinion as I am mine.

Very nice, Wyrmwood.

[Jim]

I've finished reading The Primarchs today...at times it felt like a slog and consequently its taken me a lot longer than usual to finish...

My thoughts on the 4 stories were:

1) Fulgrim:

Bit confusing about whether Daemon is there or Fulgrim has retaken control but enjoyed the Captains bundling Fulgrim and subduing him!

2) Ferrus:

Agree with others that Nick Kyme is not my fav author and felt the same about this as I did about Promethean Sun, was very Meh

3) The Lion:

Enjoyed parts of this, especially El'Johnson suspicious of Gullimans motives and evidencing his paranoria. Liked the Alpha Legion connection with the Mechanicum allies...Not so sure of his off hand killing of Nemiel and ignoring the Edict

4) The Twins:

This saved the anthology for me and whereas I felt I was slogging my way through the other stories this was one I read all in one go and thought was superb. It captured the spirit of the Legion it was descrbing perfectly, it had fights and battles and an awesome revelation at the end...Still not sure of the significance of the empty suit of armour but thank everyone else for their thoughts about what it represents - its fun to speculate!

Jim

[Wyrmwood]

Yeah, Russ was always part of a pack. Curze and the Lion were decidedly on their own, so the comparison makes sense, although there are still similarities between Russ and the Lion. Having said that, after the Lion's tantrum with Nemiel it seems he's got a bit in common with Angron too

There are, yes. In a way, Russ could be a sort of role-model for Jonson.

yea but Luther came and got the lion itsn ot like he was alone his entire life like curze was and LOL i agree with the angron comparison

Just like the Emperor arrived on Nostramo to meet Curze who was consequently tutored by Fulgrim. In short, we don't know when Curze was discovered -- it may have been before the Lion, it may not have been. Either way, the when isn't really that important; Curze and Jonson raised themselves in isolation for the most important formative years of their lives.

[Ragnarfan_12]

fair enough actually... and i was looking over the books earlier and why does Fulgrim receive so much love ? he has his own book, now a novella and he apears in quite a few others

[shadowhawk2008]

Because the other Primarchs are not being picked up by the authors?

[Ragnarfan_12]

really thats the only reason why?

[shadowhawk2008]

really thats the only reason why?

Unless you are suggesting that the HH team just doesn't want to cover all of them?

They can't exactly do everything on them that people seem to want most: "origin" novels, "change" novels, "Siege" novels and so on. There appears to be a big narrative in progress and Primarchs/legions are added to it as it seems fit.

Like the Blood Angels/Sanguinius for example. Their first book is the 21st in the series and is one of the biggest moments: Signus Prime. It will lead-in to a future story about the Siege as per Jim himself.

Look at Vulkan. He doesn't do much in the HH, except to get his legion smashed at Istvaan and then that's it. Lore needs to be created and then made a part of the larger story they are telling. Hence that Promethean Sun novella, and Nick's novel next year called Scorched Earth that takes place on Istvaan V after the Dropsite Massacre. There's also another short story to be released called The Firebrand (it's currently with the editors).

Most of what we've seen so far is the result of the initial phases of planning from the team: here's the events we want to hit and this is how we are doing it. Now that we have more authors on the table, we can afford to write about more legions/primarchs/events/factions.

[Aranel]

I don't see the issue with this. The only 'evidence' that Jonson was a traitor was an paranoid account from a deranged heretic in a book that the author admitted to be biased. Jonson disobeyed the Nikea edict, so what? His decision to unleash warp powers on the daemons was pragmatic, how could he serve the emperor if he had been loSt in the aether? The lion is the ultimate big picture strategist. It was quite clearly the lesser of two evils. I don't condone the massive overreaction with Nemiel, I completely agree that you see his conflicted personality. However, his subordinate was offering insubordination in a combat environment, censure was natural. The Lion's appeal is in his flaws and his constant effort to overcome them. Yes it makes him hard to like and understand at times but a true hero is defined by his ability to conquer his inperfections. How hard is it for Superman to save the world next to batman? A practically invulnerable alien compared to a flawed mortal genius. Who's the more heroic? I read Sunw Tzu's argument with interest and was grateful for the information he conveyed before the book was released. However, I find his premise to be based on misinterpretation and a subjective thought process. When there is solid evidence to support a traitorous Lion theory I will retract that statement!

Nemiel should never have got killed off!

[Frgt/10]

Regarding Eidolon: One of my mates asked Graham on his FB page about why he was killed off when IA states he's alive to which Graham replied 'don't worry it's all part of the plan...'
My guess is he comes back via Slaneesh.

[Animal310]

Regarding Eidolon: One of my mates asked Graham on his FB page about why he was killed off when IA states he's alive to which Graham replied 'don't worry it's all part of the plan...'
My guess is he comes back via Slaneesh.

Facepalm! I think I'm going to stop reading anything by Graham. After The Outcast Dead debacle, the Fulgrim horror show in the Primarchs anthology and now this! His 'plans' are a mess.

[Goosey_J]

Facepalm! I think I'm going to stop reading anything by Graham. After The Outcast Dead debacle, the Fulgrim horror show in the Primarchs anthology and now this! His 'plans' are a mess.

That would be a pretty silly thing to do, especially as he's written one of the best (and I am sure many people would argue THE best) HH books out there; the mighty A Thousand Sons. And let's not forget Mechanicum which was bloody fantastic.

With perhaps the exception of ADB, all the authors have had hits and misses with the HH series. Nemesis by Jim Swallow is widely regarded as not being very good (though I personally enjoyed it), but he also wrote Flight of the Eisenstein and Fear To Tread. Likewise, there were many that disliked Prosperous Burns by Abnett, but I don't even need to list all the great books he's done. The point being, you can't write off a great author because of their blips. No one get's it right all the time.

Really looking forward to what becomes of Eidolon though he's one of those dudes you love to hate, and the HH needs those characters. It's like Joffrey or Circe from Game of Thrones; every ounce of you wants them to die horrific and agonising deaths, but if they did who would you have to focus your hatred on?

[shadowhawk2008]

Facepalm! I think I'm going to stop reading anything by Graham. After The Outcast Dead debacle, the Fulgrim horror show in the Primarchs anthology and now this! His 'plans' are a mess.

This really bears repeating again and again because people love to ignore this, either wilfully or out of ignorance:

None of the HH writers work in a vacuum. Every character death is not a matter of a single author's decision. These things are born out of regular team meetings between the authors and the editors. So don't blame just Graham if you think he's done something you don't like. It was a team decision. Do you think Graham could really kill off such a major character without his editor or the other authors going "whaa??"

[Animal310]

That would be a pretty silly thing to do, especially as he's written one of the best (and I am sure many people would argue THE best) HH books out there; the mighty A Thousand Sons. And let's not forget Mechanicum which was bloody fantastic.

With perhaps the exception of ADB, all the authors have had hits and misses with the HH series. Nemesis by Jim Swallow is widely regarded as not being very good (though I personally enjoyed it), but he also wrote Flight of the Eisenstein and Fear To Tread. Likewise, there were many that disliked Prosperous Burns by Abnett, but I don't even need to list all the great books he's done. The point being, you can't write off a great author because of their blips. No one get's it right all the time.

Really looking forward to what becomes of Eidolon though he's one of those dudes you love to hate, and the HH needs those characters. It's like Joffrey or Circe from Game of Thrones; every ounce of you wants them to die horrific and agonising deaths, but if they did who would you have to focus your hatred on?

I understand your first point, I love both A Thousand Sons and Mechanicam. They are great books and because of this I was very much looking forward to reading The Outcast Dead. I also liked the sound of the synopsis, I loved the sound of the 'outcast dead' running around Terra and loved the idea of the secret message that could have changed the outcome had things gone differently. I was horrified when I finally read the book! I didn't and still do not understand the chronology change. The only answer that fits is that the Emperor sent the wolves before he received the message. That doesn't sit well with me as I hoped that they would start portraying him in a better light. The second thing was the actual message! Dreadful on so many levels!

As for Eidolon, I and many many others want some of the traitors to actually die (and that includes dying and not coming back as a deamon). There are already far too many utter bastards that survive the HH and we don't need any more IMO. Anyway I will probably get his next HH book but I hope that I don't just find it annoying to read, as I read for enjoyment and Graham, for me has not provided that with The Outcast Dead and Refection Crack'ed.

[Animal310]

This really bears repeating again and again because people love to ignore this, either wilfully or out of ignorance:

None of the HH writers work in a vacuum. Every character death is not a matter of a single author's decision. These things are born out of regular team meetings between the authors and the editors. So don't blame just Graham if you think he's done something you don't like. It was a team decision. Do you think Graham could really kill off such a major character without his editor or the other authors going "whaa??"

I don't think that is a fair comment to make. I suspect the individual authors have a lot more say in what they write than you suggest above. I may be wrong as I don't know what is discussed in the HH meetings. However for me the buck stops mainly with the author.

[shadowhawk2008]

It's a fair comment to make and an accurate one because this comes straight from the authors themselves and the editors. The point is that they have a lot of say but it is still decided on within the team and is not a single individual's decision.

[Lupe]

Well, when you've got other people working with your characters, possibly at the same time as you, you really want to make sure you're all on the same page...

[Sqallum]

As for Eidolon, I and many many others want some of the traitors to actually die (and that includes dying and not coming back as a deamon). There are already far too many utter bastards that survive the HH and we don't need any more IMO. Anyway I will probably get his next HH book but I hope that I don't just find it annoying to read, as I read for enjoyment and Graham, for me has not provided that with The Outcast Dead and Refection Crack'ed.

I agree 100% with this. I really want some Traitors to die. If Eidolon *does* come back via Slaanesh, well, no massive deal. Hopefully someone, *cough cough Sigismund* will make up for it when he does his Emperor's Champion gig

[shadowhawk2008]

Kharn being the notable exception in that regard so far :-) In Butcher's Nails and Rebirth that is.

[Wyrmwood]

I agree 100% with this. I really want some Traitors to die. If Eidolon *does* come back via Slaanesh, well, no massive deal. Hopefully someone, *cough cough Sigismund* will make up for it when he does his Emperor's Champion gig

Well, he takes part in the 13th Black Crusade.