The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

[Nazguire]

Can someone please give me the low down of the Fulgrim story? "The Exorcist in 40k'' sounds like an awesome premise, some one spoil the hell out of it for me please. Don't hold back!

[Aranel]

Hey Guys,

Haven't read this book yet but based purely off what you have described the Lion appears to be loyal. I fully admit that I have more than a slight bias in Jonson's favour yet I don't believe I'm blind to his flaws.

Egotistical and Ambitious, yes
Secretive and Paranoid, of course
Prone to serve misjudging of other peoples character, definitly

There have been times that I have not enjoyed the way he has been portrayed throughout the series, that these flaws have been highlighted at the expense of his strengths. However, he has never indicated that he wanted to betray the emperor or sit on the sidelines etc.

From what has been said on here about the novella, he takes Nemiels head off for reminding him about the Nikea edict. Fair play, a bit harsh; but he was trying to fight deamons with a failed geller field so it is hardly suprising he drew on every resource in order to banish them. My impression is that he over-reacted to his inferior failing to grasp the precariousness of the situation. Magnus was severely loyal to the emperor and was parley to much worse. Malcador overturned the edict in regards to Garro and his merry men.

The Lion doesn't like what Guilliman is doing. Again, hardly a shocker. Dorn (post heresy) almost came to blows with him over it, as did Vulkan if I remember the old fluff right. A paranoid Lion might attempt to saboutage the smurfs out of loyalty to his father and/or his own ambition. I personally can't see the problem with his dedication to the emperor.

I really want to read this book and analyse the tone and statements made but tbh I feel more positive about this issue than I did two weeks ago. Normally hate spoilers before reading books but thanks for posting.

[Aranel]

Btw Sun Tzu, I can't understand how you got that the Lion was sitting out of the fight from Savage Weapons. It is my understanding that he is trapped by the warp/Kurze and refuses to aid Guilliman. Kurze even tells him how he will be veiwed by the imperium in the years to come and his eloquant response was to stab him in the gut 'Loyalty is its own reward'.

I think we are coming at this from opposite directions man!

[Wazzahamma]

Didn't ADB himself say several times that Savage Weapons was intended to make the Lion's loyalty to the Emperor clear and dispel the conspiracy theory?

[SunTzu]

If you can find a quote saying that, I might believe you... though to be honest, even if you do find such a quote, and Savage Weapons (against all the implication that I can find in the text) was intended to show the Lion was trying to get back to Terra... he (the Lion) has now said (in The Lion) that he very specifically was not trying to get back to Terra... even though the last two pages seemed to contradict that (or at least, his motivations) again! So, yeah, an actual quote will be more convincing than "didn't X say Y...?"

If anything I've noticed ADB tends to avoid commenting on discussions of his own work in that way. My guess is that resolving the disputes of random geeks on the internet (no offence intended; I include myself in that category) probably isn't high on his list of life goals, particularly nowadays. But by all means, surprise me.

[samiens]

Trying to get back to Terra as soon as possible isn't the ultimate idenifier of loyalty- neither Russ or Gulliman sprint back- and nor does Corax remain for long. Its is strongly implied in Savage Weapons that Jonson is hounding Curze on the orders of, if not the Emperor, Dorn which would still be a loyal activity.

Lets be clear, Dark Angels are sinister, isolationist and capricious but are loyal to the Emperor. The Horus Heresy books exist to (as well as farm cash) reinforce the archetypes of 40k factions and, in a way, sell more product so to outright contradict the background of an extremely well established chapter is highly unlikely- so the Lion is portrayed as loyal but withall the issues his progeny are known for. I do think BL are being more explicit about the Lion's loyalty because of the, relatively unsupported, fan element that suggests he was traitorous which would in turn damage a major product line.

Both the context, and the evidence, support the Lion being a loyal (if distrustful and paranoid) character and until something is published that evidentially shows him as disloyal then we should view him as such (but as a DA player for 16+ years I am biased...)
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[shadowhawk2008]

Just finished the anthology. My god it bloody rocks. My favourites are The Reflection Crack'd and The Serpent Beneath. And Feat of Iron for me just screams Iron Hands throughout. Top mention to The Lion. All great stories from a talented bunch.

[Nazguire]

Can someone please spoil the entire Fulgrim story for me please? Get onto it !!

[SunTzu]

Since you asked so nicely...

Basically (and as I understand and I remember it) it comes down to this: at the end of Fulgrim, Fulgrim was possessed, with his own essence trapped inside a painting. In Aurelian, the newly awesome Lorgar confronts the Fulgrim-daemon-thing when they meet after Isstvan, and (with Horus basically staying out of it) confronts it; then gets taken to the painting, where Lorgar sees his brother, but decides not to interfere, leaving Fulgrim's body to the daemon.

In The Reflection Crack'd, Lucius and his comrades realise that Fulgrim is not entirely himself, and (after viewing the painting, and partly with the help of Fabulous Bill) make a pretty good guess at working out what's happened. (As a side note, we are told that "Fulgrim seems to remember past events as though they had happened to someone else", though the only time he really mentions past events, that's not what we're shown; so I wasn't 100% satisfied with that, but could overlook it). They decide to trap the Primarch and attempt what is effectively an exorcism, only without the benefits of the knowledge that someone like Lorgar might have had, they don't really know how to do it. So they torture him at length, trying to force the daemon out of his body. Only then they realise that it gets off on pain, so actually pain isn't a very effective technique in this case.

In the end, Lucius has a bit of an epiphany and realises he's been mistaken. The Primarch releases himself, and explains that although the daemon had forced Fulgrim out of his body and into the painting, Fulgrim had (eventually, after coming to terms with having slain his closest brother) forced his way back in, rejecting the daemon. The thing trapped in the painting is now the daemon - which, being an entity that delights in the fullness of experience, is now suffering agonising torment being denied any and every possible means of experiencing anything.

There were a few things that didn't sit well with me (notably I felt that Lorgar's awesomeness in Aurelian is weakened a bit by every man and his dog realising Fulgrim was possessed if they only sit and think about it for a bit; the extended torture scene wasn't very good IMO; and the exact mechanism of how Fulgrim was able to swap places with the daemon again was never explained, though that in itself is excusable I suppose) - but it did draw a line under the "is Fulgrim a daemon prince or just possessed" question, in a fairly clever (if not, to me, entirely satisfying) way. Though of course, we have to consider the possibility that Fulgrim/daemon was lying and he really was still possessed after all (though I don't think that's the conclusion we're intended to draw; Fulgrim being himself again was expressed pretty strongly).

It wasn't bad, but I felt like the material was there for it to have been a lot better.

[Son of Sanguinius]

SunTzu, would you kindly recount any of the other tales you can remember?

[Londinium]

Since you asked so nicely...

Basically (and as I understand and I remember it) it comes down to this: at the end of Fulgrim, Fulgrim was possessed, with his own essence trapped inside a painting. In Aurelian, the newly awesome Lorgar confronts the Fulgrim-daemon-thing when they meet after Isstvan, and (with Horus basically staying out of it) confronts it; then gets taken to the painting, where Lorgar sees his brother, but decides not to interfere, leaving Fulgrim's body to the daemon.

In The Reflection Crack'd, Lucius and his comrades realise that Fulgrim is not entirely himself, and (after viewing the painting, and partly with the help of Fabulous Bill) make a pretty good guess at working out what's happened. (As a side note, we are told that "Fulgrim seems to remember past events as though they had happened to someone else", though the only time he really mentions past events, that's not what we're shown; so I wasn't 100% satisfied with that, but could overlook it). They decide to trap the Primarch and attempt what is effectively an exorcism, only without the benefits of the knowledge that someone like Lorgar might have had, they don't really know how to do it. So they torture him at length, trying to force the daemon out of his body. Only then they realise that it gets off on pain, so actually pain isn't a very effective technique in this case.

In the end, Lucius has a bit of an epiphany and realises he's been mistaken. The Primarch releases himself, and explains that although the daemon had forced Fulgrim out of his body and into the painting, Fulgrim had (eventually, after coming to terms with having slain his closest brother) forced his way back in, rejecting the daemon. The thing trapped in the painting is now the daemon - which, being an entity that delights in the fullness of experience, is now suffering agonising torment being denied any and every possible means of experiencing anything.

There were a few things that didn't sit well with me (notably I felt that Lorgar's awesomeness in Aurelian is weakened a bit by every man and his dog realising Fulgrim was possessed if they only sit and think about it for a bit; the extended torture scene wasn't very good IMO; and the exact mechanism of how Fulgrim was able to swap places with the daemon again was never explained, though that in itself is excusable I suppose) - but it did draw a line under the "is Fulgrim a daemon prince or just possessed" question, in a fairly clever (if not, to me, entirely satisfying) way. Though of course, we have to consider the possibility that Fulgrim/daemon was lying and he really was still possessed after all (though I don't think that's the conclusion we're intended to draw; Fulgrim being himself again was expressed pretty strongly).

It wasn't bad, but I felt like the material was there for it to have been a lot better.

Sounds awesome but Fulgrim just popping back into his body without any real explanation sounds rather like a poor deus ex machina. It also rather begs the question of just what is up with Fulgrim now. He seemed to regret his decisions just before he killed Mannus, thus why he let himself be possessed in the first place because he wanted to end everything and kill himself. Now he's suddenly back, without the influence of the Daemon he's somehow conquered while being imprisoned in a painting and yet he's just going to carry on like nothing happened? Like he's happy with the state of his legion? Like he wants to continue the rebellion even though he was at such a loss on Istvaan he wanted to kill himself? hmmm.

[Freak Ona Leash]

Have not read the story, but

Daemons lie.

[SunTzu]

Sounds awesome but Fulgrim just popping back into his body without any real explanation sounds rather like a poor deus ex machina. It also rather begs the question of just what is up with Fulgrim now. He seemed to regret his decisions just before he killed Mannus, thus why he let himself be possessed in the first place because he wanted to end everything and kill himself. Now he's suddenly back, without the influence of the Daemon he's somehow conquered while being imprisoned in a painting and yet he's just going to carry on like nothing happened? Like he's happy with the state of his legion? Like he wants to continue the rebellion even though he was at such a loss on Istvaan he wanted to kill himself? hmmm.

The explanation given is basically that he came to terms with what he's done, and decided that he enjoyed it. I agree, IMO it's not entirely satisfactory, but maybe the story will be more convincing to you when you read it, than it was to me; of course anything I write about it here is unavoidably coloured by my perception of it, perhaps "in the flesh" you will find it more compelling.

Have not read the story, but

Daemons lie.

Yes. This thought occurred to me too, and I did mention it in my summary above. But

I don't think that's what we're supposed to get from the story. Certainly all of Fulgrim's closest companions including Lucius and Fabulous Bill are convinced he's now the real deal again; maybe they were duped by the daemon's lies, but I think we're intended to accept it at face value. In a sense, I suppose it could still be considered unresolved, but on the basis that they seem more likely to write a novella to resolve the Fulgrim question than to write an entire novella to not resolve anything, for out-of-book reasons I think it's intended to be conclusive. Again... other people's readings may disagree with my analysis.

[Xisor]

Yep, The Serpent Beneath is thoroughly excellent. Reading SunTzu's spoilers really sells it short. DON'T READ THEM. (Though kudos to ST for doing a very decent job of summarising.)

I felt The Lion was pretty plainly a case that:

The Lion believes the Emperor to be the highest authority.
The Emperor isn't there, so the Lion is deciding instead.

Nemiel's challenge was (in my reading of events) categorically opposed to what would save lives. It's still a blunt and slightly shoddy way of doing it (what with the repercussions in story being precisely zero), but the motivation itself sits alright with me. Spending even a moment more debating with Nemiel risks the ship. Allowing Nemiel to try and interfere risks the ship. It's a massive moment, but somewhat bungled (due to lack of noted consequences).

In the end, however, the Lion's paranoia is paramount. He only trusts the Emperor. That's the big revelation from the Lord of Change for the Lion - the Emperor still lives. Moreover, the Lion trusts the Emperor not to need him at Terra. It's the same argument as has been done with the Ultramarines - why didn't Guilliman bother even seriously trying to go to Terra? For me, it's not an issue. We're aware that travel's difficult. Going straight to Terra isn't the major problem.

---

Feat of Iron

The daemon vexing Ferrus - it's Fulgrim's daemon which we 'know' has been ousted by Fulgrim and put in the picture. Ferrus' head & the daemon picture end up in the Angel Exterminatus mirror palace, making something of a 'forever loop', wherein Fulgrim can torment Ferrus. Sortof. I'm not clear on it, but that seemed to be the indication.

Right?

[Deepsix81]

Is this available for pre-order/delivery from bl.com or did you pick your copies up from one of the live events?

[Xisor]

Nope, no pre-orders yet, probably not for another month at best. We've been picking them up at live events, I'm afraid.

(Though it's drawing my attention to a potential flaw in BL's marketing. The enthusiasm generated from the early released versions might not be working in their favour, overall - they could just be better off...releasing them all at once, normally. [Save for the review copies which'd go out only a little earlier?])

[SunTzu]

(Though it's drawing my attention to a potential flaw in BL's marketing. The enthusiasm generated from the early released versions might not be working in their favour, overall - they could just be better off...releasing them all at once, normally. [Save for the review copies which'd go out only a little earlier?])

Shhhh... they might stop doing it...

To be fair I don't suppose it makes much difference. They sell hundreds of thousands of copies of each book, I think it's unlikely that that's going to be adversely affected by selling 20 or so early. They generate a bit of goodwill among the people who get a copy early, and a bit of resentment among those that don't; but people still buy the books, so...

[Xisor]

Shhhh... they might stop doing it...

To be fair I don't suppose it makes much difference. They sell hundreds of thousands of copies of each book, I think it's unlikely that that's going to be adversely affected by selling 20 or so early. They generate a bit of goodwill among the people who get a copy early, and a bit of resentment among those that don't; but people still buy the books, so...

Yeah, that is the thinking. It leaves me, bewildered - it could well be nothing more'n a drop in the ocean.

To illustrate my suspicions:
With Early Sales: Sell a 100 early (plus goodwill & exposure), sell 100,000 through normal release.
Without Early Sales: Sell nothing to begin with, but sustained 'enthusiasm' at release ('going viral'? might be induced, but that seems to be 'the thinking') could generate 110,000 sales from 'phenomenon' sales.

If I'm wrong/my suspicions are for nought, however, then it's quite possibly more in the region of: Early Sales ~1000, 'phenomenon sales' ~1000. Or worse, so my suggestions wouldn't have any benefit at all.

On the other hand, if they did stop doing it, we'd (eventually) have much more folk to talk to (excitably) about the implications of The Serpent Beneath.

[samiens]

Think were talking about such minute sales I verymuch doubt it affects overall sales
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[Kijamon]

Trying to get back to Terra as soon as possible isn't the ultimate idenifier of loyalty- neither Russ or Gulliman sprint back- and nor does Corax remain for long. Its is strongly implied in Savage Weapons that Jonson is hounding Curze on the orders of, if not the Emperor, Dorn which would still be a loyal activity.

Actually Russ knew full well that he HAD to pull the ships out of the warp to defend an Imperial World that was vital to the war effort. The guilt is there to see in a short story when he arrives back just too late to do anything.