The Primarchs [spoilers in tags]

[Sqallum]

I am furious about Nemiel/Zahariel.

This is because:

Nemiel had his character built up over two books. He provided a great contrast of character with Zahariel, and it was certain (well, not really in hindsight) that they would meet on Caliban, Fallen vs Loyalist. But no.

Mr.Thorpe simply kills him off, wasting some great build up of character from Mr.Scanlon and Mr.Lee.

Not only that, but his death was incredibly clumsy and simply confuses me about the character of the Lion. Nemiel obeys the Emperor, as he says, but when the Lion hears this he just decapitates him. Which none of the characters mention later in the book. Like Nemiel never, ever existed.

If the Lion had simply smashed Nemiel and demoted him in rank, it would have shown how conflicted his character is. But as Nemiel mentioned the Emperor, all this does is just confuse me.

The rest of the story was really good, as I love the Iron Hands and Death Guards. Also, I loved Deliverance Lost.

That bit just left me feeling disappointed and angry as it destroyed the mirror of the Lion/Luther, played down to the level of Astartes. So how are they going to adapt the story of Zahariel now?

I just feel a bit disappointed.

N:B I am welcome to listen to other peoples opinions on this, so argue with me if you want.

[shadowhawk2008]

You have a Primarch who just killed one of his senior officers for no apparent reason. The ship is still under attack. Are you really going to bring up the topic with him? Even later when he is busy trying to settle this "debate" between the Iron Hands and the Death Guard?

Jonson kills Nemiel because the latter "obeyed" a higher power than the former. Jonson is a Primarch, one of the more arrogant ones who also happens to have trust issues on a massive scale. Loyalty is its own reward but that loyalty should first and foremost be to him and not to the Emperor.

As for Nemiel being killed so early. Big deal? Several characters are being/have been bigged up since the first novel with the promise of some really defining face-offs around the Siege of Terra/Fall of Caliban. While I agree that it seems a waste in the previous DA novels where Nemiel is concerned, it could also mark a change in tactics for the writing team. They have changed what the confrontations will be like in the end.

Maybe in the end it isn't a Nemiel v/s Zahariel battle we are going to see, but Zahariel against Jonson himself, in revenge of his cousin. I've only read like the first third of Fallen Angels so I don't really know what happens to Zahariel in it once he finds out the traitorous stuff happening on Caliban, but maybe when he "gets the news" of Zahariel's senseless death, it is the impetus for him to give himself over to Chaos and seek out Jonson to exact his vengeance.

With Eidolon, perhaps the writers are bringing him back as a Daemon Prince or some such? Doesn't really matter to me. I was quite happy to see that bastard die in such a senseless manner. Serves him right.

[Sqallum]

Thanks. I do personally agree about Eidolon. As for Zahariel in Fallen Angels....

He and the Marines help restore order on Caliban. Eventually, however, many things in the plot happen and Zahariel turns on Israefel, Jonson and the Emperor with Astelan and Luther. Cypher shoots Isfaefel through the chest with his plasma pistol, then they lock Israefel up in the Tower of Angels. They then try to bind a daemon before making plans for the freedom of Caliban

[shadowhawk2008]

So he's halfway there already. Turning fully on Jonson to avenge Nemiel and giving himself completely over to Chaos for an epic confrontation with the blonde-haired bastard sounds just as awesome to me.

[Ragnarfan_12]

you cant blame luther or zhariel for acting is they did IMO like the lion dosent care about them anymore as seen by the end of the short story and they were forced to watch tehre beautiful world torn apart and reformed in an industrial world for the emperor and everyone starting the rebelions was terran so it makes sense why theyd turn

[shadowhawk2008]

What short story??

[Sqallum]

Fallen Angels? BTW, is Battle For The Abyss a good read? I am thinking of buying it, but I have heard plenty say it is awful, plenty say it is brilliant. Me confused

[shadowhawk2008]

Fallen Angels is a full-length novel, not a short story.

BFTA is a bad read the first time around. Then over time, you mellow towards it. At least I did. I still think it is one of the weakest HH novels but it's just that the World Eater Skraal and the Thousand Son Mhotep are REALLY good characters.

[Sqallum]

Thank you. Fallen Angels is what I thought originally, but now I think Ragnarfan 12 meant The Lion as Lion'El Jonson decides not to return to Caliban, but I thought that was because he cared about the Imperium more than his home planet, something I find that redeems him a bit

[Wrenchmuller]

Sorry, I don't normally comment on here (prefer to read ), but just thought I'd offer my opinion on the El' Jonson thing in this novella having just read it myself.

The problem with the Lion killing Nemiel the way he does is that it reduces the character of the Lion too much. We're given plenty of information in the other books to show how seriously the Nikaea (sp?) Edict is taken, even Magnus loses everything because of it. Nemiel did nothing wrong, in fact he did his duty perfectly, and instead of recognising that the Lion executes him. It's almost impossible for me to sympathise with that kind of ruthlessness. In that one moment he goes from being a cold, distant but ultimately honourable Knight to being a petulant maniac.

[stormblade]

Eidalon wasn't really a built up charater, he was put into books simply for the sake of being annoying, his death is inconsequental as his former role.

[Ragnarfan_12]

anddd like everyone keeps saying nemeiels a chplain-redemptor made to enforce the emperors will and keep the faith if his brothers strong of course he wont defy the emperor nad the deseperate measures dosent even work because punching his head off i way to extreme in my opinion...yea sorry i guess i shoulda been more speicific the lion short story and hes not even saveing the imperium hes gonig to attack guliman from what i understood of it ... am i wrong? and i actually really like bfta it starts off slow but personally by the end i couldnt put it down

[stormblade]

Nope, I think he is planning on aiding him (but still making sure he doesn't get too much power).

[Wrenchmuller]

Nope, I think he is planning on aiding him (but still making sure he doesn't get too much power).

The impression I got was that preventing Guilliman becoming the 'new Horus' was as important as stopping the Traitors. I can't remember the quote but he says something along the lines of fearing they were trading one threat for another, or something, which is somewhat supported by Horus himself says in one of the original books that Guilliman clearly wanted to be Warmaster.

Then again, it could just be old-fashioned Lion paranoia

[Ragnarfan_12]

well everyones kinda paranoid at this time but the lions takeing it way to an extreme guliman does want to be warmaster and he is building up his forces also takeing in the iron hands to his cause. as seen in rules of engagement hes not exaccttly makeing to terra with all haste i ( i dont remember if a reason is given or not) the lion going to battle against guliman or in some way weakening guliman so he dosent have absolute power is traitourous complletly bot are loyal and the lions motives are unjustififed ( i know its all speculation because theres nothing written on it yet but still) thats just my thoguhts on what i read/ think is gonna happen

[Wyrmwood]

The Lion has always been a cultured savage. Brought up in the chaos saturated forests of Caliban, a Death World, he was forced to adapt and become the apex predator to survive the nightmares given form that inhabited the area. Hell, he couldn't even speak until he was tutored by Luther. He's constantly suspicious, forever paranoid because that's what it took for him to survive at all. The parallel with Curze is brought up in Savage Weapons.

My take on his murder of Nemiel is that he let slip; at his core, the Lion is still a savage; he was shaped by the forests of Caliban and his shot at nobility has always been a facade, albeit a very heartfelt facade -- the projection of who he wished he could be. In the chaos of that moment aboard his flagship, the savage he worked so hard to bury lashed out at Nemiel before the Lion could gain control of himself again. He's simply a very primal being who tried to master himself, hence his desire to control any given situation; in order to continue his pursuit, he needs to essentially know what he's in for. The Heresy brings out the savage because it fulfills his darkest desires in that it confirms his paranoia.

His buried, true self agrees with the Night Haunter but he wishes he didn't, because he wants to be more. Curze no longer does -- and that's the key difference.

In no way, shape or form does this make him disloyal to the Emperor or guilty of treason, as SunTzu suggested. Granted, he's entitled to his own opinion as I am mine.

[shadowhawk2008]

The Lion has always been a cultured savage. Brought up in the chaos saturated forests of Caliban, a Death World, he was forced to adapt and become the apex predator to survive the nightmares given form that inhabited the area. Hell, he couldn't even speak until he was tutored by Luther. He's constantly suspicious, forever paranoid because that's what it took for him to survive at all. The parallel with Curze is brought up in Savage Weapons. My take on his murder of Nemiel is that he let slip; at his core, the Lion is still a savage; he was shaped by the forests of Caliban and his shot at nobility has always been a facade, albeit a very heartfelt facade -- the projection of who he wished he could be. In the chaos of that moment aboard his flagship, the savage he worked so hard to bury lashed out at Nemiel before the Lion could gain control of himself again. He's simply a very primal being who tried to master himself, hence his desire to control any given situation; in order to continue his pursuit, he needs to essentially know what he's in for. The Heresy brings out the savage because it fulfills his darkest desires in that it confirms his paranoia.

His buried, true self agrees with the Night Haunter but he wishes he didn't, because he wants to be more. Curze no longer does -- and that's the key difference.

In no way, shape or form does this make him disloyal to the Emperor or guilty of treason, as SunTzu suggested. Granted, he's entitled to his own opinion as I am mine.

An excellent theory :-)

[stormblade]

The parallel with Curze is brought up in Savage Weapons.

To be fair he had, as far as origin story goes, always been more similar to Russ. I don't know why ADB felt the need to compare him to Curze in that aspect.

[Wyrmwood]

To be fair he had, as far as origin story goes, always been more similar to Russ. I don't know why ADB felt the need to compare him to Curze in that aspect.

It makes more sense, IMO. While Russ was essentially a "Wild Man", he was still raised by... Something, by the Wolves of Fenris themselves; they were his family. The Lion, like Curze, survived alone in extremely hostile places and because of the nature of Caliban and Nostramo, darkness was instilled into both.

[Wrenchmuller]

Yeah, Russ was always part of a pack. Curze and the Lion were decidedly on their own, so the comparison makes sense, although there are still similarities between Russ and the Lion. Having said that, after the Lion's tantrum with Nemiel it seems he's got a bit in common with Angron too