Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

  1. #1
    Librarian
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Moncton, NB, Canada
    Posts
    357

    Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

    I decided to try a game with forces from my two main armies (Gondor and Rohan) and I discovered some things. First off, let me say, that I am a WotR player, so I still have to get used to some of the differences. I love WotR, but even just trying to get familiar with the SBG, I had a blast.

    I set a Minas Tirith force of Knights of MT, Rangers of Ithilian, and MT Warriors with Faramir leading, against Red Sheild Riders, Helmingas, and Royal Guards on foot led by Erkenbrand. (Each had 3 warbands at 500 points)
    In summary, I expected Faramir's forces to smash the Rohirim into ity bity peices but I was pleasantly suprised. Through a combination of luck and tactics, the Rohirim managed to take the victory. At the end of the 'To the Death' scenario, Faramir and his Banner were both casualties, and both sides' armies were broken, giving Rohan the edge in Victory points.

    Here are some of my observations:
    Erkenbrand and Grimbold are worth their points and it's worth upgrading their forces. Erkenbrand increases his riders' Fight from 3 to 4, and Grimbold improves his Warriors' Strength the same. I found this made a huge difference, as there were many times that Rohan rolled just enough to carry the fight or wound the enemy. Without these small stat bonuses they would have often been 1 under!

    Lances are a bit situational. They seem powerful, essentially giving you the bonus of 2H weapons without the Fight penalty, but because they only work on the charge, getting priority is essential. The only other options is burning might on heroic moves. I only had Faramir's 3 might available, which he used trying to take Erkenbrand out. It might have worked, but for Erkenbrand's successful Fate roll.

    The Rohan horse archers were flexible. They could try skirting around the Knights, harrassing them with arrows when they didn't have the best position, but they could also charge in when they had priority in order to limit the KoMT lance bonus. Once the KoMT were within 10 inches, though, they were forced to either run or charge.

    A small number of throwing weapons can make a big difference. They aren't super powerful, nor are they consistant, but if your strategy doesn't depend on them, they can be a nice little random element in your favour. That randomness can throw a monkey wrench into an enemy's othewise solid looking defence, sowing some chaos in his ranks, which can have a bit of a psychological effect on your opponent as well.

    Once the fight was joined in earnest, mixing the Helmingas and Royal Guard worked well. Multiple combats where the Royals' Fight helped them win the battle, while the Helmingas Strength caused the wounds were very effective. The Royal's high Fight and Defense also held off the WoMT nicely, even when the Gondorians had spear support.

    I love Erkenbrand, but I don't know if he should lead. With only 1 wound, he is a bit vulnerable, especially if Nazgul come in to play.

    A good part of this game is position, so spending might on the right Heroic move can go a long way toward a win.

    The banners were more effective than I'd first thought. Being able to reroll in a fight was a nice edge. However, they are a bit pricey.

    Faramir is a beast! For 95 points he got some sweet options that gave him real staying power. Three rounds in a row he went toe to toe with 3 riders at the same time, one of which was Erkenbrand. As mentioned, he should have quickly dispatched the Rohirim leader, but Erkenbrand's successful fate roll kept him in the fight. Faramir was finally overwhelmed on the fourth round of this barrage. I can only imagine the damage Aragorn could do with his free Might and Anduril. Due to his cost, I'd have to reserve him for some really big games.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Brother Sergeant
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    71

    Re: Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

    Thanks for the detailed analysis, it's interesting to see how KOM perform under the new edition.

    I'm primarily interested in your Rohan analysis as that's the army I'm collecting/fielding so its's good to hear of them getting a win! I've played my first few games using the new system/scenarios over the weekend and have a lot of issues (look for a new thread tomorrow if I can find the time!) but have to agree on some points.

    I took both Grimbold and Erkenbrand and upgraded their warriors and the impact was easily apparent, Erkenbrand's Redshields balanced the odds against Uruk Hai whilst Grimbold's Helmingas provided a Strength boost that's useful against almost any race given the proliferation of Defence 4 troops. Erkenbrand's +2 courage horn is also a welcome benefit to the Rohan once the forces get broken.

    I think where the Rohan really suffer is their lack of F6 heroes (sadly unchanged in the new books). I took Eomer, Knight of the Pellenor to lead my forces and was duly impressed with him...until he came up against a cave troll. His high Defence and Fate points protected him in the first few rounds but it was clear that the troll had the upper hand from the start. Due to swarms of goblins and a lack of Might I was essentially at the evil players mercy and so found myself praying for a six every turn and then equally praying that my opponent fluffed his rolls, this hardly seemed like the behaviour of a great hero. The obvious answer is to avoid enemies with F6 and above but the fact is almost every other race/region (think Aragorn/Boromir, Gimli, Legolas from the Fellowship alone) has F6 heroes and it seems strange that a warrior like Eomer who is geared towards combat simply can't compete at this level. In the end I was able to overcome the troll but this was absolutely down to my opponent fluffing his attacks and me managing to roll a six rather than some glorious charge - in all honesty Eoemer only took the troll's last wound, Erkenbrand had taken the first 2 before he fell!

    I'm also a big fan of throwing weapons. Whilst I sorely missed spears when the fighting got close, the ability to make a full move, stop outside a Moria Goblin's charge range and then shoot was priceless! Similarly, charging at a shield/spear wall with a group of warriors/Riders/Royal Guard with throwing spears and managing to take down a fair few of the front row, thus neutralising the combat benefit was highly effective. I think you have to be aggressive when playing Rohan to stand a chance (another point at which our character's low fight value has an effect) and think the choice of heroes to lead your warbands is really crucial, perhaps more so than other armies.

    I managed a win over the weekend though so I'm not disheartened and have now returned to my desk to keep painting up more Royal Guard!

  3. #3
    Librarian
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Moncton, NB, Canada
    Posts
    357

    Re: Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

    I don't think Rohan would have faired nearly as well had they not gotten priority as much as they had.
    Also, my teams were under 500 points. Over that and I could have fielded Aragorn for a F6+ hero, but with Faramir as my main leader, Erkenbrand matched his Fight. It will depend on the player, but with the Warband rules, many people will be keeping the more expensive heroes (like Minas Tirith's F6 heroes) for larger games only. I see your point, though.

    I was able to get a few lucky shots with the throwing spears and actually take out a couple of the MT Knights. I can imagine that would be a lot more effective against the goblins!

  4. #4
    Brother Sergeant
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    71

    Re: Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

    You could well be right, hopefully must players will respect the spirit/size of the match and not take a 200 points-ish combat monster in a game that small. Our (Rohan's) issue is what happens when you play above that points size. Whereas other heroes have Aragorn/Boromir etc. to expand to we have the same F5 heroes whatever the size of the game. I just find it frustrating because it informs the way you play, Eomer's Pellenor profile is meant to represent him charging head-first into danger against anyone and everyone but the rules make you cower from anything F6 and above. Perhaps if his devastating charge rule made him S5 and F6 on the charge it would go someway to off-setting the disadvantage. It's just another frustration in a list I want to love but keep finding fairly big gaps/weaknesses.

    It's interesting what you say about priority, one of the games I played at the weekend (and won actually) had me win priority but constantly have it stolen from me by heroic moves. Even when I countered with my own, I lost every roll off and the mighty Rohirrim were swarmed by goblins who found it remarkably easy to take down my riders (largely 2 on 1 fights needing 5s to wound). I ended up winning due to my infantry grabbing the objective rather than by the might of my cavalry, left me feeling slightly hollow :-)

    I definitely think the TS are worth it, my 6 spear armed Riders killed at least 6 goblins with them and thus easily made back their 10 point investment. They were also a great bonus at breaking up formations and presenting different, more appealing targets. They're definitely staying in the list!

  5. #5
    Librarian
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Moncton, NB, Canada
    Posts
    357

    Re: Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

    Priority: This seems to be a lot more crucial with cavalry. For my Minas Tirith, they couldn't bring their lances to bear as long as Rohan kep winning priority/heroic move rolls. In your contset with the goblins, your Rohirim cavalry would really only get the best benefits of being cavalry (knock down, double attacks, etc.) when charging.

    Besides the F6+, the other benefit of the point heavy heroes (like Boromir and Aragorn) is the extra might, which Rohirim Cavalry could make good use of. Mind you, taking Gamling, or even Merry, for the extra might could be considered more cost effective, if all you were looking at were Might.

    Throwing Spears: Even when I needed 6's to wound with them, the random chaos they could sow in the enemy's tactics were worth it. Sometimes more fun than effective, but at other times opening up some real vulnerabilities in the enemy's formation.

    As an aside, it doesn't look like there's much reason to take Hama over Gamling. They have the same stats but Hama is missing Fate. His King's Man ability doesn't really make up for that, especially where most players don't want to take Theoden due to his glaring lack of Will.

  6. #6
    Brother Sergeant
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    71

    Re: Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

    I'm inclined to agree about Hama, if you have a look at my Rohan doubles tournament list you'll see I've taken him but that's only because I've still got Theoden in the army due to my love of the theme/fluff. When I played at the weekend Hama's rule really helped towards the end of the game when I was broken. With Erkenbrand dead (so no courage bonus) and a Moria drum banging away Hama had a courage of 3 and his warriors 2 so the King's Man rule really helped. That said, if Theoden dies (not entirely unlikely) or Hama is killed then you might really miss that Fate point...

    When you take Gamling do you take the Royal Standard? I can't decide if the extra 25 points is worth the Might replenishing bonus, I suppose if he's on a horse he should be able to get within 3" of whichever hero needs him.

  7. #7
    Librarian
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Moncton, NB, Canada
    Posts
    357

    Re: Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

    I haven't got the Gamling figure with the banner yet, so I haven't used the option. However, where the banner is a full 50 points more, I would have to be playing a larger game to spend those kind of points. In 500 points games I've been restricting myself to one major hero (Erkenbrand or Eomer). The good thing about Gamling and Grimbold is that they're only about the price of a regular captain.

    However, in a larger game, you could probably manage to keep him within 3" of a couple of heroes, when you really needed it.

  8. #8
    Chapter Master Spiney Norman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    The Macu Peaks
    Posts
    8,671

    Re: Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

    Its worth noting that Rohan generally works better vs evil forces than it does against other good forces.

    Generally evil armies work around even strength values, str 2 archery or str4 crossbows and an abundance of str 4 in combat, which makes odd defence values more efficient (since you are effectively getting the same protection, but paying less points for it).

    In addition Rohan is the only good army that can field cheap, abundant str4 infantry (helmingas), dwarfs can do this too, but by no means cheaply (khazad guard). This gives Rohan an edge against evil armies who are expecting to face mostly str3 (and therefore build their defence around even numbers).

    Regarding throwing weapons: I find they work better on infantry rather than cavalry because its much less of a loss for infantry to move into range and throw a volley then charge next turn, getting into charge range with your cavalry is a big no-no in case you lose priority on the next turn.
    Last edited by Spiney Norman; 13-03-2012 at 12:14.
    Proud Owner of Warhammer Armies: Lizardmen Ltd Edition no. 0865

    Quote Originally Posted by Muad'Dib View Post
    'Cinematic' is an..euphemism* for "made so because teenagers enjoy it" or "dumbed down for teenagers".

  9. #9
    Librarian
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Moncton, NB, Canada
    Posts
    357

    Re: Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

    I suppose it depends on if you plan on charging infantry or cavalry. Obviously, you can be in your own charge range with cavalry while still outside of the infantry's range.

    Part of our gaming group's problem is that most of us have good armies.
    We have effective Rohan, Minas Tirith, Dwarf, and Elf armies, while on the evil side we only really have Moria and Easterlings, and the Easterling player just started collecting.

    Edit: I should also say, good observation on the effectiveness of the Rohirim numbers.
    I've been subbing in a generic captain, but have Grimbold on order. He makes a huge difference.
    Last edited by Peregrin; 13-03-2012 at 12:41.

  10. #10
    Chapter Master Spiney Norman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    The Macu Peaks
    Posts
    8,671

    Re: Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrin View Post
    I suppose it depends on if you plan on charging infantry or cavalry. Obviously, you can be in your own charge range with cavalry while still outside of the infantry's range.

    Part of our gaming group's problem is that most of us have good armies.
    My point was you can't be within range of throwing a spear and out of the charge range of infantry (unless you're fighting Moria goblins).

    Most people around here have at least one army of each good and evil, I have three of each, if you're looking for an evil army then Easterlings aree pretty cheap to get off the ground because you can make plastic captains using parts from the cavalry set.
    Proud Owner of Warhammer Armies: Lizardmen Ltd Edition no. 0865

    Quote Originally Posted by Muad'Dib View Post
    'Cinematic' is an..euphemism* for "made so because teenagers enjoy it" or "dumbed down for teenagers".

  11. #11
    Librarian
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Moncton, NB, Canada
    Posts
    357

    Re: Aftermath Observations on Men in SBG

    The buddy with the Dwarf army is starting an Easterling army.
    My own armies are geared toward WotR, so they're large, but I have a small number of Isengard Uruk from the original Two Towers set, as well as Saruman. I could probably build that into a small SBG army if I picked up a few elites. I have 8 Uruk with shield and 8 with pikes.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •