Plasma and Melta

[EpicWarGamer]

Melta has seen some serious use since 3rd... Plasma is really taking it when it should not be. Please pick from below.

[althathir]

I voted left alone. The reason melta is so popular has more to do with how good vehicles are in this edtion, if vehicles become less durable than plasma will get more popular IMO.

[EpicWarGamer]

I voted left alone. The reason melta is so popular has more to do with how good vehicles are in this edtion, if vehicles become less durable than plasma will get more popular IMO.

That makes sense. Has anyone heard that Vehicles will be less durable this edition?

[Oppressor]

Noone knows what is in store for vehicles next edition.

I voted for leave them alone because if plasma gets str or ap changed it's now a rip-off of Tau and loses it's superior versatility, and melta is already hampered by range to compensate.

[althathir]

That makes sense. Has anyone heard that Vehicles will be less durable this edition?

No unless you think the "leak" is legit. But it wouldn't shock me, GW likes to change things up to keep people adapting their armies and in 5th mech has been king. I don't expect it get horrible though cause I think they make a ton of money off of rhinos.

But a small change like making it so you score victory points for holding objectives per turn, and making so embarked units can't hold objectives would make it so that troops got out of their rides making options like plasma better.

[Vaktathi]

Plasma was significantly more popular than melta weaponry in 3E and 4E. Melta-weaponry got more popular for two reasons. First they made plasma weapons 50% more expensive pretty much across the board with the 5E and near 5E books. Then they made vehicles reasonably durable, meaning melta and especially AP1 had more of a role, and plasma guns were no longer often better vehicle killers than meltaguns, making them less versatile.

Really, what they need to do is just dump plasma weapons back down to 10pts and/or dump Gets Hot! for Plasma weapons since it no longer serves a legitimate balance purpose anymore and hasn't for years. There's no reason Melta's should have Gets Hot!

[Friedrich von Offenbach]

I never got the differnce between melta and plasma. Quoting from the 3rd edition rulebook (so might be differnt now): "Melta weapons fire a sub-molecular thermal blast" and for plasma " The molten gas explodes on impact". Aren't these essentially the same thing as they both fire a very hot substance, surely both should over heat and both should have the melta rule.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

Honestly, I'd like to see Plasma lose GH. It's an unnecessary mechanic and makes Plasma an unattractive option compared to Melta and Flamers. I voted to remove GH, but I'd loathe to see a strength reduction in the process.

I can already hear posters now about my view point. Let me point out that Assault Cannons once upon a time blew up in your face too. That mechanic was removed and it did not break the game to do so.

[althathir]

What about keeping Gets hot, and making ap 2 weapons have the +1 bonus on the vehicle damage chart as well? I mean if you objectively look a lot of the common ap 2 weapons they could use the boost, lascannons, bright lances, plasma guns/pistols, and starcannons all come to mind (granted I play Eldar and SW), and melta would still have the advantage (the railgun might need a boost but so do Tau).

Dark Eldar would receive a pretty big plus, but with their vehicles already being open-topped and several armies gaining more reliable anti-vehicle options I think it would balance out.

[Charistoph]

Vehicle toughness is one reason that Melta has gained supremacy. Another is price. Another one is that plasma is either Heavy, Rapid-Fire or a Pistol, where as the most common Melta is an Assault weapon. When you add that this Assault weapon also turns most Space Marines into pink mist when it hits them and doesn't blow up in your face, it almost becomes a no brainer.

The only reaons to take Plasma over Melta is range on the rifle (which matches the heavier Melta), Blast template, or you want the punch AND a pistol.

[Lothlanathorian]

I never got the differnce between melta and plasma. Quoting from the 3rd edition rulebook (so might be differnt now): "Melta weapons fire a sub-molecular thermal blast" and for plasma " The molten gas explodes on impact". Aren't these essentially the same thing as they both fire a very hot substance, surely both should over heat and both should have the melta rule.

In 2nd Edition, only Chaos plasma weaponry had 'gets hot' and that was due to 10,000 year old plasma tech. It's the same reason Chaos has never had troop carried plasma cannons. At the time of the Heresy, the coolant systems for such large plasma weapons was only practical in/on vehicles. Imperial plasma weapons didn't have 'gets hot' back in 2nd. With 3rd Ed came a simplification of the rules and so Gets Hot was made for all Plasma type weapons.


EDIT: And the poll is flawed because there is no option for 'Plasma no GH; Melta left as is.'

[agurus1]

that doesn't make any sense for chaos plasma to have gets hot and imperial not too. didn't the Imperium understand more about its tech 10,000 years ago? EG: all of the rare stuff now was more popular then and better maintained? Anyway...

I vote Plasma to be the same points as melta, simple fix, and compensates for both of their weaknesses and strengths.

[Lothlanathorian]

It did make sense. In 2nd Edition, Plasma Weapons were one of the few things that the Imperium managed any sort of technological advancement on. So, Heresy era plasma weaponry was inferior to modern Imperial plasma technology. So it did make sense. And no, the Imperium didn't understand more about it's tech 10,000 years ago. They haven't been good at understanding tech since the Dark Age of Technology happened. If anything, it would be easier to assume that their tech has gotten better than 10,000 ago not because of science advancing, but, because in those 10,000 years, they'd have recovered more lost technology.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Part of it was also a different design philosophy in plasma weapons. Imperial Plasma weapons was safe to use, but the Chaos versions had a higher rate of fire (a sustained fire dice if I remember correctly). Imperial weapons was made safe by slightly lowering there rate of fire to let the cooling system actually work as intended.

As for any changes, I think they should just get rid of the Get Hot rule. It's a terrible way of trying to balance a piece of equipment and it's not very fun or interesting. It's contribution to the game is almost entirely negative and we don't need to keep these things around.

[Sons of Lorgar]

If plasma looses gets hot, it can stay at a premium points cost, if not, it needs to drop back to the old level, also I'd like to see a different cost between pistol/rifle.

[Radium]

I say leave them both alone. Drop the plasmagun to meltagun points, and hopefully the changes in 6th will reduce the number of vehicles seen making plasma more desirable again.

[Battleworthy Arts]

Change the Gets Hot rule. The firer can overload the weapon, giving some sort of boost, and that is the only time it might get hot.

[Sotek]

10 points for SM, remove GH. Then it is ok :-)

[Denny]

Part of it was also a different design philosophy in plasma weapons. Imperial Plasma weapons was safe to use, but the Chaos versions had a higher rate of fire (a sustained fire dice if I remember correctly).

I think both had sustained fire, but the Imperial weapon could only fire every other turn (it needed to cool down).
The Heavy plasma could be fired on low power every turn, or a super high power blast that need a turn's recharge.

Plasma weapons are supposed to kill light tanks/heavy infantry. Under current rules they lack the rate of fire/AP to reliably kill tanks, and the abundance of cover often renders the high AP irrelevant.

I think the issues with plasma need to be addressed by changes to the core rules . . .

[Lothlanathorian]

I think both had sustained fire, but the Imperial weapon could only fire every other turn (it needed to cool down).
The Heavy plasma could be fired on low power every turn, or a super high power blast that need a turn's recharge.

That's what it was! Bringing something similar to Sustained Fire (something akin to Rapid Fire, but, optional) so that if you choose to fire multiple shots, then Gets Hot would apply. So, the risk would lie in firing it too much as opposed to just one shot per turn.

And I agree with everyone else who wants 'Tournament Rules' and then a more in-depth set of rules for fluffier/campaign style games. Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer 40,000: Advanced