Thoughts on Grey Knight?

[druchii]

This kind of made me laugh... A huge point in favor of GK for me. Why, because I want an overpowered juggernaut? Nope! Because usually I'll take a dex and instantaneously choose to go with the one strategy that simply isn't viable in that particular book :-)

Maybe if I play GK, I can play a fluffy list that is still competitive.

This is actually the problem with GKs.

You deliberately have to hamstring yourself to build an enjoyable army.

The other problem with them is that I could give them to my girlfriend, who's never played 40k, ever, and point out which things in an opponent's army are scary, and watch her wreck face with them.

Finally, to the person who said demons are any shade of good against GKs has obviously never played a game of 40k.

d

[LonelyPath]

So long as you avoid taking lots of Purifiers and Rifleman Dreadnoughts with Psy-bolts (known as Psyfleman Dreads) then you should be okay and not chase off other players. I've tried the list myself and it is truly evil against other armies. Personally though I prefer a list of Strike Squads lead by a brother captain or Librarian (usually the latter), 1 Psyfleman Dread, a Las/Missile Dread and a Vindicare. it can be strong, but not to oppressive.

Henchmen lists are also fun with lots of variety, but sadly they lack anything in the Fast or Heavy sections of the list to get a full all round selection across the army.

As for the fluff, the less said about it the better. Ward trod on many toes with what he wrote there.

Finally, in regard to Daemons, I sometimes take them against GK for a chuckle, knowing that I'll be wiped off the table unless my opponent rolls so badly I can manage a draw. We really don't take those games seriously, but it breaks up the monotony of just trying to beat each other with a fun scenario we write up ourselves.

[Grimtuff]

Finally, to the person who said demons are any shade of good against GKs has obviously never played a game of 40k.

He was referring specifically of Khornate Daemons, and only then when you spam units that have Blessing of the Blood God, which gives you, amongst other things, a 2+ invulnerable save vs. Force Weapons.

[althathir]

Tell that to Tyranids. They're the GK's whipping boys.

Nids really have pretty much been every 5th edition armies whipping boy (with the exception of vanillas). Its sad but I think their 4th edition book would be more competitive.

It's hard not to be, honestly. While I will never refuse to play a person, mind you - there is absolutely nothing enjoyable about playing against Grey Knights; especially as a Marine variant. They will out-shoot and out-melee even your dedicated units, and often times, do it for significantly less than you payed.

It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth, even if you pull out a win.

I like pulling out a win when I feel outmatched.

I really don't have a problem with GKs for the most part, but the Inquisitor rules, made for an easy way for GK players to get around their weakness. I think they're the best book right now, but they aren't 3.5 chaos, craftworld supplement Eldar good either.

[KeyOfTwilight]

I think GK are vastly overrated in their abilities. Sure, a GOOD player can consistently win with the army, and a bad player can win pretty good too with a cheese army, but against a player who knows their army, and knows their opponents army, and can use those two factors to their advantage, GK pretty much crumble. Even nids can beat them by playing with shadow in the warp. I'm looking at nids for my next army even, just to show how it can be done.

To the topic at hand, however, I would say take some of the lesser known units in the books, like their jump troop equivalent, or their devastator equivalent. Spread out your points more in 3+ rather than all in 2+/5++. I would say don't even use dreadnoughts, they're sort of against what grey knights philosophy is anyway. Take rhinos or stormravens as your transports, and eschew using cheap cheese like razorbacks. Or if you use any RBs at all, take one only. Heck, even use a land raider. Play it how you would play a vanilla marines army.

I really don't have a problem with GKs for the most part, but the Inquisitor rules, made for an easy way for GK players to get around their weakness. I think they're the best book right now, but they aren't 3.5 chaos, craftworld supplement Eldar good either.

I don't think anything comes close to the Daemon Princes in 3.5 chaos in terms of cheese. "Oh, you have an invulnerable save? Nope, I'm pretty sure you don't. Oh, you don't have a normal save either. And I can fly."

[Bunnahabhain]

An awful lot ( IMO) of the bad feeling that the GK book generates comes from the way it ignores so many conventions.

The +1 strength Psy power- applies BEFORE doubling, not after, like everything else
The grenade effects, similarly, kick in at a step to make them much better than they would be anywhere else.
Grand strategy ( gives D3 units a choice of useful upgrades, like making them scoring) gives you a simple way to cover weaknesses
Fortitude ( ignores shaken & stunned) makes their shooty vehicles so much better, for next to nothing, and with no downside.

Basically, if there were two ways something could work, GKs just about always got the cheaper, more effective, better way.

[BBWags]

Does anyone think that GK might have been designed for 6th edition and maybe some of the things that seem outrageous now will be much less so at that time? After looking through the book a little, the first thing I've noticed is it seems to be quite hard to kit out your own grandmaster when you have draigo awesome-sauce staring you in the face. Doesn't make it easy to go non-excellent.

[rocdocta]

People are just sick of facing GKs. Next tourney this weekend literally 50% of all players are GKs. They are seen as a noob army. This due to being undercosted and OP. Anyone can use them and do well in a tourney. Check out their wargear and compare the points and effect to every other army. They are the one army that i refuse to play against in friendly pick up games. Its not my oppos fault, but i have better things to do than be someones punching bag for 3 hours. Now before people say "hey i just like the models and fluff...its not my fault they are so strong!" how many people played them before the new codex? very very few. maybe 1 per tourney. lo and behold they get the abomination and now everyone uses them. same fluff.

I could take my Mech IG but thats just as boring to use/face. In the quest to sell more models they made GK far too strong.

to the OP if you want repeat games and actually learn the 40k rules/ how to play well, dont take GKs. You will always be seen as "yeah he won but he had GKs, enough said..." If you like marines, take vanilla marines as they are damn fine but still forgiving. Plus you will get more games, better opponents and understand the rules.

[BBWags]

Is this really the way it is? Because a person may or may not believe this, but as I described in my op, I love the idea behind GK... The only reason I didn't play them before is because they were very NOT newbie friendly. The models were awesome, but let's face it, they really weren't competitive. Now unfortunately the pendulum swung too far the other way, or so it seems.

I just don't want to finally find an army I like and plays exactly as I've always wanted, but not have anyone even want to play me...

[Craftworld]

Finally, to the person who said demons are any shade of good against GKs has obviously never played a game of 40k.

Man up and call me out specifically, or don't make snarky comments at all.

As Grimtuff pointed out, having 2+ invulnerable saves in CC is pretty damn nice. While the Grey Knights have relatively mediocre ++ saves - if at all.

I'm curious to hear about your professional gaming experience though, since you're clearly leagues above the rest of us.

[BBWags]

Ok, so I realize this is not the tactic forums, and as such, I'm not posting this list asking for tactical advice. Repeat, I am NOT asking for tactical advice. The only reason I am posting this list is so that anyone willing to comment can answer this one simple question: Is the list below one that would make you hate playing me as Grey Knights? To put it another way, I have spent all of an hour or two reading the codex and these are the units I've chosen to put in my first list for a couple basic reasons; i.e. I like the concept (paladins), the models (terminators in general), or the specific abilities (interceptors). So here it is:

Grand Master - 3 Servo-Skulls, Master Crafted Halberd, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Paladins - Apothecary, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Incinerator, Psycannon

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Strike Squad - 2 Psycannons, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Interceptors - 2 Incinerators, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

So again, I'm not asking you to critique the list. I don't want strategy help or telling me my choices are stupid. I am only interested in if this is a list you'd hate to play against or if you would see it as a "fair" list. My intent would be to throw out the servo-skulls, deep strike and go from there.

So what do you think, is this broken?

[KeyOfTwilight]

Ok, so I realize this is not the tactic forums, and as such, I'm not posting this list asking for tactical advice. Repeat, I am NOT asking for tactical advice. The only reason I am posting this list is so that anyone willing to comment can answer this one simple question: Is the list below one that would make you hate playing me as Grey Knights? To put it another way, I have spent all of an hour or two reading the codex and these are the units I've chosen to put in my first list for a couple basic reasons; i.e. I like the concept (paladins), the models (terminators in general), or the specific abilities (interceptors). So here it is:

Grand Master - 3 Servo-Skulls, Master Crafted Halberd, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Paladins - Apothecary, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Incinerator, Psycannon

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Strike Squad - 2 Psycannons, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Interceptors - 2 Incinerators, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

So again, I'm not asking you to critique the list. I don't want strategy help or telling me my choices are stupid. I am only interested in if this is a list you'd hate to play against or if you would see it as a "fair" list. My intent would be to throw out the servo-skulls, deep strike and go from there.

So what do you think, is this broken?

Interesting that it has no armor. I like it, I mean, it almost reflects what I'm doing with my red scorpions as far as spamming infantry units goes. As far as fluff goes, it's nice in that respect as well. A completely deep striked army. I'd play it, I'd love coming up with tactics against it too.

[Soupcat]

Man up and call me out specifically, or don't make snarky comments at all.

As Grimtuff pointed out, having 2+ invulnerable saves in CC is pretty damn nice. While the Grey Knights have relatively mediocre ++ saves - if at all.

I'm curious to hear about your professional gaming experience though, since you're clearly leagues above the rest of us.

TBH khorne deamons are already pretty awful to begin with. Yes the 2++ is great but of the models that can get it on the blood thirster is any decent. Warp quake means that the "safe zone" for anything after the 1st wave if you go first (which already means your gonna eat an extra round of fire) is much further away leading to another round of shooting. You still dont have anything with grenades so FC on the bloodletters don't do much. Deamons tend to do very poorly against mech, and GKs do mech better then most. If you do poorly against khorne deamons you either are still getting used to facing against deamon deployment or really are not very good at this game.

[rocdocta]

Ok, so I realize this is not the tactic forums, and as such, I'm not posting this list asking for tactical advice. Repeat, I am NOT asking for tactical advice. The only reason I am posting this list is so that anyone willing to comment can answer this one simple question: Is the list below one that would make you hate playing me as Grey Knights? To put it another way, I have spent all of an hour or two reading the codex and these are the units I've chosen to put in my first list for a couple basic reasons; i.e. I like the concept (paladins), the models (terminators in general), or the specific abilities (interceptors). So here it is:

Grand Master - 3 Servo-Skulls, Master Crafted Halberd, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Paladins - Apothecary, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Incinerator, Psycannon

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Strike Squad - 2 Psycannons, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Interceptors - 2 Incinerators, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

So again, I'm not asking you to critique the list. I don't want strategy help or telling me my choices are stupid. I am only interested in if this is a list you'd hate to play against or if you would see it as a "fair" list. My intent would be to throw out the servo-skulls, deep strike and go from there.

So what do you think, is this broken?

hard to say.

Plus
It doesnt have any landraiders/armour inc Psyrifledreads etc

Ok
2x10 troops that arent that hard to kill.

Minus
It has paladins with an apoth. 2wounds 2+/5++ and FNP is almost impossible to drop without Ap2 and Str8+ ranged weaponry. They DS in, weather 1 round of largey ineffective shooting and then clean up with force weapons.

so for me facing that list (how many points?) i would be half annoyed at facing another GK army with pallidins and half thinking, oh well it could be worse. But if it was a gamefinder post on a forum i wouldnt answer it as I play nids, chaos necrons, daemons, marines, Mech Guard (rarely). Just being honest. Fore warned is fore armed.

[fubukii]

Gk are fine, they are a strong codex, but no worse then SW/IG. IG is still the top dog, i find the one problem is gks are cheap to field a strong army, so people who run "fluffly" lists gte stomped by competitive gk armies. The book is desgined so there arent those Ultra ****** choices that other books have. If people stop taking terrible armies they would complain less.

GK's have alot of weaknesses. A common misconception is that several different kinds of grey knight lists are sprinkled in. Usually you run into MEQ GKS, Henchmen, Paladin deathstar, Henchmen with minor GK MEQ Support. You wont see for example Grand strategy, Might of hte titans and death cult assassins in the same army. Just doesnt happen. But internet nay sayers make it seem like every list has purifiers, 6 dreds, dcas, and strike squads. Internet exaggerations .

Armor 12+ . Grey knights have trouble with high armor value targets since psy heavy bolters and psy cannons are not nearly as effective vs them. In particular armor 14 is near impossible to deal with since 99% of grey knight armies lack melta guns. You can use this to your advantage, stop using nothing but armor 11 tanks.

High armor save models. Grey knights lack alot of AP punch. In particular 2+/3+ save models in mass are tough to shoot off the table. If they have FNP this becomes even worse. THe only hope is to get into combat. Use this to your advantage if you can. Most GK lists suffer vs Alot of Tyranid monstrous creatures. WHen i was at the nova i experienced this problem first hand.

Psychic defense, Bring some if you can. SHutting down foritute and force weapons and other powers just makes them pricey 3+ save guys.

Minus dreds 90% of the list operates entirely from 24 inches or closer.

FYI space wolf players, your grey hunters are much cheaper. Instead of the usual Tactic of Rapid fire and counter attack its usually better to SHot your bolt pistols and charge, so the strike squads only get 1 atk each. SHould net you a huge advantage in cc resulting in your cheaper unit winning. RUne priests are MVP too.

Grey knights are a blast to play, and are a great army best probably used with people who are competent players, and know how to make good army lists and play on a somewhat competitive level. If you are in a group that enjoys fluff bunny style lists with illogical choices, no list synergy and just play for giggles and a excuse to roll dice then maybe you shouldnt do grey knights. Ultimately, If you like the army play them, the models are great, most of the book is viable (minus dreadknights), and you seem to like them!

[Mánagarmr]

Most GK lists suffer vs Alot of Tyranid monstrous creatures. WHen i was at the nova i experienced this problem first hand.

Grey Knights struggle against monstrous creatures? Was this an attempt at humor - and I just missed it?

[Oppressor]

If you want to play grey knights, then play grey knights. I don't understand what the problem is. Why bother picking an army that is a hardcore group of badasses that can kill tremendous amounts of enemies while outnumbered and purposely make a list that is weak? Do you intend to use this to make people more likely to play against you by telling them you purposely made a weak list so that people can feel either cheated if they win against you or like a complete failure if they lose?

[Challenge Accepted]

TYRANID monstrous creatures, at that. I think we're getting trolled by the tourney "pro" over here.

[Death Company]

Grey knights are a blast to play, and are a great army best probably used with people who are competent players, and know how to make good army lists and play on a somewhat competitive level. If you are in a group that enjoys fluff bunny style lists with illogical choices, no list synergy and just play for giggles and a excuse to roll dice then maybe you shouldnt do grey knights.

This is rubbish.

We took an absolute new-comer in our store, and entered him into a tourney between three local gaming clubs here, running a Grey Knight list we made on the fly - and he took second place, behind another Grey Knight player. Please don't pretend you're playing a tough army.

You would actively have to try to cripple yourself to make a bad Knights list.

[fubukii]

To answer the questions it really does depend on the list. Grey knights are ld8 9 with the justicar. In general they dont have the usual ap1/2/3 weapons used to slay monsters Like for example SW/IG have (las/plas/melta/rockets etc) THis makes shooting them down very troublesome especially if buffed by a tervigon with FNP. Your only hope is that you have actual grey knights in your army, (As dreadnaught fire bounces off). Pray to pass a ld9 test on 3d6 with the average roll being 10.5, and hope to wound them on a 6. (obviously hammers wound better) Most GK lists will run MSU style units typically with 1-2 psycannosn per 5 man, thus leaving only 3-4 men with force weapons to attack. Between shooting you can whittle down a few, then mop them up with cc. Trygons are tervigons do well vs gk, terivgons make alot of little stuff, give fnp to stuff, and tervigons go first usually, and get a good amount of attacks. 6 attacks with rerolls and ws5.... should Mangle any marine unit. Nothing rerollable 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound .

If you must know i play a mostly henchmen grey knight army, and i do not have many force weapons at all. SO yes, tyranids in particular are a fairly good matchup. Dreds while good arent amazing at killing 3+ save guys with potential fnp.