Thoughts on Grey Knight?

[althathir]

I'd like to see some of the big independant tournaments ban GK. Show GW that their sell moar models strategy won't be tolerated.

I think this is silly, i mean after you ban GK, are you gonna ban IG, SW, BA as well? GK are really good but they aren't as bad as some of the top books from the past, and 6th may have some negative effectives on them that bring them more in line. Off the top of my head if you scored VPs for holding objectives per turn, and you couldn't be embarked when you it did it, alot of GK, and MSU lists would struggle.

As I mentioned before, I'm pretty out of touch with the current meta, but isn't it true that a number of current races can spam their best units and turn the game into an exercise of frustration for their opponent? This is an assumption at the moment, but maybe someone can back it up?

I would probably collect enough (if I collected at all) to field both a "friendly" GK list, like the one I posted above, as well as a hardcore list, just to see how far I could stretch the "few against the many" idea. Also, sometimes you meet someone else who just says, "bring it, no holds barred.". When both players have that mentality, the game really can be fun as well.

But the friendly style list would certainly be my default choice :-)

Spamming does occur units like long fangs, and psy riflemen are good examples. In competitive play there really isn't any stigma, in casual play there is (even if what your spamming is bad). Having the models to do both is ideal (I tend to just count my grey hunters as blood claws it tones wolfs down fairly fast). That said talking to your opponents before the game really takes care of most of these problems more so if your willing to think outside the box and be flexible.

[GrogDaTyrant]

After all if they ban Grey Knights this time, who knows whether or not your army will be the next to be declared unacceptable.

Way back when GW was still running their own grand tournaments (4+ years ago), there was a huge deal about which armies would be 'acceptable' during that go-around. The old Lizardmen book had a Southlands list that was quickly banned from tournaments. Likewise the Chapter Approved list for the Kroot Mercenary army was up in the air most of the time.

The one to impact me the most, was when they were on the fence about the Ork Clans. It took them roughly 2 years of saying "No... we're not sure about these, so we're banning them this year" before they finally made a decision and allowed them, for the last year of the GT circuit, right before they were all made obsolete by a fresh (sub-par) Ork codex.

Banning armies that are deemed 'too much' in a tournament, isn't exactly a new idea.

[Spider-pope]

Way back when GW was still running their own grand tournaments (4+ years ago), there was a huge deal about which armies would be 'acceptable' during that go-around. The old Lizardmen book had a Southlands list that was quickly banned from tournaments. Likewise the Chapter Approved list for the Kroot Mercenary army was up in the air most of the time.

The one to impact me the most, was when they were on the fence about the Ork Clans. It took them roughly 2 years of saying "No... we're not sure about these, so we're banning them this year" before they finally made a decision and allowed them, for the last year of the GT circuit, right before they were all made obsolete by a fresh (sub-par) Ork codex.

Banning armies that are deemed 'too much' in a tournament, isn't exactly a new idea.

The fact it has some precedence doesn't make it a good idea though. When you couldn't use your army, did you stop playing the army or did you feel annoyed that the tournament banned your chosen force?

[Kevlar]

You wouldn't be banned from the tournaments though. Your Grey Marines would just be Iron hands or grey ultramarines... Ban the book, not the models.

[KeyOfTwilight]

Or, uh, learn2play your army and beat the snot out of everyone with it. It's not that hard to win with any of the armies if you know what you're doing. We have a guy at our store by me who can whoop any army he faces with a footdar army. Why? He knows each army's weak points and their strongpoints, as well as those for his own army. He knows how to use whatever army he builds to defeat any foe. Why can't you beat grey knights? maybe because you go at it thinking the same "oh, grey knights, not them!"

Seriously, people, we don't need to ban units or armies.

[althathir]

You wouldn't be banned from the tournaments though. Your Grey Marines would just be Iron hands or grey ultramarines... Ban the book, not the models.

What ultramarine unit has stormbolters and force weapons/power weapons?

I'd much rather see some form of comp that restricts spamming, or like I suggested earlier better mission design that curbs MSU a bit. Than just ban an armythat people dropped a ton of money on.

[Spider-pope]

You wouldn't be banned from the tournaments though. Your Grey Marines would just be Iron hands or grey ultramarines... Ban the book, not the models.

Well i wouldnt be banned at all, since i don't collect Grey Knights. I sold my Daemonhunters after reading the Grey Knights book because i didnt like the way the fluff was altered.
But again, you're still punishing the player not the cause. In fact your version would be even less effective, because there would be no drop in miniature sales at all.

[druchii]

Man up and call me out specifically, or don't make snarky comments at all.

As Grimtuff pointed out, having 2+ invulnerable saves in CC is pretty damn nice. While the Grey Knights have relatively mediocre ++ saves - if at all.

I'm curious to hear about your professional gaming experience though, since you're clearly leagues above the rest of us.

If this were a thread about demons vs GKs I'd point out how AWFUL khorne demons are against any single other army (so you're making a list JUST to beat GKs? Have fun playing any other army).

Or how you have to get through TONS of psycannons/razorbacks/psyflemen dreads. You know GKs do things other than fight stuff in CC, right?

I'd be curious to hear YOUR experience even playing demons (especially khorne demons) against GKs, or any other army for that matter. Heck, take a gander at the demon tactica thread in my signature and see how many of the players who have been playing demons for like three years think demons fare against them.

Just because I called your comment asinine doesn't mean "I'm leagues above the rest of you", just capable of rational thought.

Snarky enough?

d

[Bunnahabhain]

Or, uh, learn2play your army and beat the snot out of everyone with it. .

The plural of anecdote is data.

A few people complaining isn't important.
Many experienced players saying Grey knights are more powerful than most or all other armies, and easier to build and play well than most/all forces, and present hard counters to several otherwise vaible lists... now that starts to look like a pattern.

As a simple example, I consider myself a fairly expereinced player, and I have run a variety of Guard lists for several editions. Assuming roughly equal skill levels, I can beat Grey Knights, if I use a mechanised list of some kind. I've tried my foot lists (which are otherwise fairly successful) against them a few times, and never got close to winning...

This kind of measured, detailed, non hyperbolic feedback en masse say Grey knights are too powerful at the moment, compared to the rest.

[KeyOfTwilight]

The plural of anecdote is data.

A few people complaining isn't important.
Many experienced players saying Grey knights are more powerful than most or all other armies, and easier to build and play well than most/all forces, and present hard counters to several otherwise vaible lists... now that starts to look like a pattern.

As a simple example, I consider myself a fairly expereinced player, and I have run a variety of Guard lists for several editions. Assuming roughly equal skill levels, I can beat Grey Knights, if I use a mechanised list of some kind. I've tried my foot lists (which are otherwise fairly successful) against them a few times, and never got close to winning...

This kind of measured, detailed, non hyperbolic feedback en masse say Grey knights are too powerful at the moment, compared to the rest.

If we listened to what we couldn't do, where would the world be today? Keep at it and you'll find a way to beat it. remember also that the internet is a small percentage of what constitutes the hobby as a whole.

[Spider-pope]

The plural of anecdote is data.

The plural of anecdote is anecdotal data.

A few people complaining isn't important.
Many experienced players saying Grey knights are more powerful than most or all other armies, and easier to build and play well than most/all forces, and present hard counters to several otherwise vaible lists... now that starts to look like a pattern.

Presumably you've polled the entire playerbase of 40k then, to make these claims. You cannot take a relative handful of complaints, compared to the number of people actually playing the game, and extrapolate a pattern and consensus amongst all players.

As a simple example, I consider myself a fairly expereinced player, and I have run a variety of Guard lists for several editions. Assuming roughly equal skill levels, I can beat Grey Knights, if I use a mechanised list of some kind. I've tried my foot lists (which are otherwise fairly successful) against them a few times, and never got close to winning...

Well done. Nice anecdote. And other people have detailed anecdotes of their own saying they've pounded the Grey Knights into the dirt. Neither is more valid than the other.

This kind of measured, detailed, non hyperbolic feedback en masse say Grey knights are too powerful at the moment, compared to the rest.

Now i agree that Grey Knights are overpowered, along with the fluff its one of the reasons i didnt decide to carry on playing them. But that was a personal choice based on my own judgement and experience. To insist that others should be bound by it is folly.

[fubukii]

THis is 5th edition foot lists arent very good. You have to play mech and you stated when you play mech you win vs gk. IF you lose while taking a subpar list thats not the other players fault. You have Some of the BEST choices in the game. Vendettas, manticores, melta vets, THe leman russ with the special char that does 20 str 6 shots, out flanking platoons you name it. IF you choose to ignore those choices and run bad things thats on you.

[Bunnahabhain]

There is a big difference between a sub par list, and a list that does fine against most competitive lists.

And including the Leman Russ Punisher with Pask in the most powerful unit list... it would be a steaming **** of a unit in the CSM book, let alone the Guard book.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Imperial Guard are generally accepted as having the strongest army at present. Grey Knights are, against most enemies, the second strongest. They do have bad match-ups, as against (ironically) Tau, but most armies will find fighting them an uphill battle.

That said, true 5th edition armies like Dark Eldar and Necrons do seem to have counters to them. Marine armies suffer because while every troop unit in the Grey Knights are useful, Marine troops aren't, and that is because the equipment and options for them are still based on 2nd edition from 20 years ago.

[fubukii]

There is a big difference between a sub par list, and a list that does fine against most competitive lists.

And including the Leman Russ Punisher with Pask in the most powerful unit list... it would be a steaming **** of a unit in the CSM book, let alone the Guard book.

It pretty much kills any Light transport (razorback equiv) Gets about 2-3 glances vs armor 12, or shreds the units inside with alot of bs4 shots. Its totally a really good unit for sure! I have seen alot of people use them in their guard armies, And i must say they have been doing very well.

[BBWags]

I have my answers and I appreciate everyone's input. Unfortunately, the conversation now will likely just turn into a couple people yelling at each other, so I think maybe I'll just close the thread . . . thanks again to everyone who gave objective feedback! It's much appreciated!