Dueling Wood Elf Warbands - If you have the willpower

[Brother Fenix]

Summary In First Post - Help requested in last post:
See bold underlined section below

Alright, Dyrnwyn inspired me to try my own hand at the Wood Elf Warband. So first of all, thanks a lot to Dyrnwyn who I took most of the concepts from, but I have made some variations based upon the things I wanted to see included or changed.

Are the changes I made still fair and playable without being to overpowered or underpowered?

Also at Tom's Boring Mordheim Forum at link below in plain text (PDF in this post):
http://boringmordheimforum.forumiere...illpower#89135

Almost all of the changes suggested in the posts below have been incorporated into the list. (As well as those on TBMF)
-Modified Equipment List (Gladewood bows and Double Handed Weapons) (v2)
-Removed Traps special skill for Pathfinder (v2)
-Removed Warhawk (v2)
-Added Distaste for poison and drugs (v2)
-Stag to large target (v2)
-Changed Talismanic Tattoos (v2)
-Modified Familiar Spite and increased cost (v2)
-Removed Enchanted Acorns (v3)
-Removed Spellsinger added 2nd Pathfinder (v3)
-Changed Treekin Spirit Guardian to 18" (v3)
-Wild Hunter now 55 gc - Way Warden now 85 gc (in line with Dwarf noble from "Treasure Hunters") (v3)
-Waywatcher adept skill, you must remain stationary (v3)
-Removed Infiltration skill, added Armour of Ariel (v3)
-Asrai Archery for Pathfinder and Glade Guard Kindred only. (file v3)
-Change name of Pathfinder to Sentinel. (v4)
-Reword Bladesinger and Asrai Archery (v4)
-Treekin no longer REQUIRES spirit-touched Hero, but is severely hampered without one. (v4)
-Added Glaive to hero equipment list (v5)
-Wild Hunter now 50 gc - Glade Guard Initiative 4 - Minor wording changes (v6)
-Treekin now at Movement 2 if not within 18" of a Spirit-Touched, to make it slightly easier to get back in range i.e. 4" run (v7)
-Minor wording changes to emphasize the Wayfarers as younger Wood Elves and not as accomplished as their Warhammer cousins. (v7)

[Dyrnwyn]

Well, they say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, but I have to say that overall, I dislike it.

Here's the rundown of things I dislike -

• I changed Asrai Archery to only short range - in retrospect the original version is quite powerful.
• Spirit-touched is way more powerful than my version. I left it as a double skill because it was meant to be a naff choice that opened the gates for Treekin and Sprites.
• My talismanic tattoos are simply a 6+ unmodifiable save (and a 6+ save against magic), yours are a true ward - taken after other saves, and are available to anyone who rolls a skill.
• Bladesinger and Infiltration being restricted to two heroes each rustles my jimmies. I'm cool with restrictions on one special skill, but two bothers me. Especially annoying given that you've got restriction to a henchman type on Bladesinger in combination with Long Lived.
• Sense Corruption is interesting without being gamebreaking, but it'll just gather dust if you're not facing those warbands.
• Pathfinder's traps are essentially worthless. They'll do jack squat until he takes Infiltration as an advance, and enemy warbands can see where it is, and can walk around it. If you make it hidden, it's a huge gamble that anyone even walks near that area.
• Wild Hunter - It's clear you like the Alter Kindred and I favor the Wild Rider here, but like I said, I dislike beasts as warband members. others may not be as disagreeable.
• Your Wardancers are particularly nasty - denying parries is pretty huge in the early game were people eschew armor for bucklers and swords. I dislike the restriction on skill lists.
• Oddly enough, your Treekin is in my opinion, severely underpowered. It's a touch faster than my last version of it, but the drawbacks are immense. Trading 16% death chance for missing the next game every time it's taken OOA isn't great, especially combined with your version of Spirit Guardian which means that your opponents will dogpile on the Spirit-touched model first or try for a polearm crit to push him away, then murder the Treekin while it's WS1, I1, A1. I'd rather pick up another elf henchman rather than the Treekin with those drawbacks.
• The animals... aside from the fact that I dislike animals in warbands on principle, I feel like they are a huge waste of time. Go for anything other than the dog and you're sinking enough money into it that you could buy and equip a new warband member, who could have armor, ranged attack, and two weapons. You waste a rare roll trying to find these albatrosses, and even the dog is Rare 9, so it''s not easily replaced if you lose it. Pricewise, given the choice between a Stag or Gladewood Bow, or the Warhawk and an Elven Cloak, I wouldn't even bother with the animals. If I were playing this warband the animals would remain untouched until my warband was full and I had pretty good equipment on several guys already. Plus, three equipment entries just for one model when you can only have one at a time strikes me as a waste of space.

That said, there are aspects that I do like.

• You did include the standard Elf rules (Sharp Sight and Subtle), which I had forgotten.
• Sense Corruption is fluffy and interesting.
• I noticed a lot of little fixes and adjustments in some rules for clarifications.
• I'm not entirely happy with some of the changes to the Lore, but I agree with most of them.
• Looking at your price on the Spite, I've reconsidered my stance on his price - he can be expensive.

There are aspects of your re-write that I'll gladly adapt - I'm going to drop Forest Spirit and Woodland Adept from my skill list, and tweak my spells, but by and large I'm not sold on your changes.

[Zekk05]

The Bad:

The talismanic tattoos are broken. 6+ ward save on top of armor saves and step aside/dodge becomes too much. There are rare instances in the game where such a save is granted, and usually comes at a high cost.

Blade Singer IMO needs to go as well. it creates a rule that directly counters a balance issue GW set out to fix in the early days of mordheim when spears were 1 handed.

PathFinder ability, I like the ability and it could make sense to be in a wood elf band. seems to be a copy of the Berjerger (sp?) hero from the Averlanders. not a bad idea, but adding more abilities and not increasing cost is a big no-no. as it is, a Human Champion is 35 gc, and an Elf champion for 10gc more gets +1 M, +1 BS, +2 Init, and a special ability?

War Dancers Combat Specialist also creates an issue. Allowing a lads got talent roll to take an extra skill makes them better than Path Finders. (Like Dyrnwyn said, the traps arent particularily useful) which will encourage people to get more and more lads results and fire the core hero. This will create an imbalance late game and create another 'witch hunter' style of play: only 1 strategy worth playing.

Sprites - These things are better than magical artifacts. and you can purchase an average of one every 2 games (late game). No one else has such a powerful late game item. I dont agree with them in Dyrnwyns list, agree even less with them on this list.

Warhawk beast - the ability to place a model where ever you want, and allow it to charge as soon as it enters play... is too much for Mordheim. that ability is restricted in 40k to one or two models in the entire game. Adding that to Mordheim , where a single charge can have such a huge impact on the game is too much. especially at WS4 STR4.

Magic - still too powerful. Fluff wise, wood elf magic is very weak, and when it comes to Mordheim ,this spell list rivals Skaven for magical power. Every spell is not only useful, but Good! Most spell lists have one or two spells that simply suck, or have Very low use.

Spirit Touched - with so much emphasis on this skill with the treekin, a lot of elves will be taking it. All of a sudden, a warband facing off against wood elves will be taking more fear checks than one fighting an undead warband. Doesnt seem right.




The Good:
Treekin. balanced, maybe a bit under powered, but, the rest of the list is on the high end on the power side to make up for that. Balancing units and warbands is more than just individual characteristics, its how it fits into the warband.



Honestly, I wouldnt be comfortable fielding this list in my campaigns. not at this point. It feels like the original list was taken and everything buffed up. Elf warbands are too powerful to begin with which is why GW banned the first one from official gameplay, and the rest never made it in either. Drynwyns list managed to tone down the nature of the elf warbands enough that it would be compatible in a core-Mordheim campaign, which is what we all need! Theres lots of rules and abilities in this warband that could be abused and exploited heavily.


Hero - Spirit Touched, Talisman Save, Spear wielding skill, Step Aside.
Now your elf Causes Fear, Strikes First, gets his bonus attack, Gets an Armor save, A 2nd armor save, AND a third armor save.
this doesnt feel very elf like to me. And thats not taking into consideration the insane skill in the shooting department.

[Brother Fenix]

Well, they say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, but I have to say that overall, I dislike it.

So we begin with a shot across the bow, fair enough.

[*]I changed Asrai Archery to only short range - in retrospect the original version is quite powerful.

I agree, seems like a proper change, and more in line with real physics, (easier to aim while moving at closer targets.)

[*]Spirit-touched is way more powerful than my version. I left it as a double skill because it was meant to be a naff choice that opened the gates for Treekin and Sprites.

Yeah, the dispel may be too much, but I was going from the wood elf book Forest Spirit rule. A modification here is probably needed.

[*]My talismanic tattoos are simply a 6+ unmodifiable save (and a 6+ save against magic), yours are a true ward - taken after other saves, and are available to anyone who rolls a skill.

I was basing this on the Combat and Speed Skills, Step Aside and Dodge, respectively. They both use the “taken after other saves” language and so since this was a 6+ rather than 5+ I made it against both shooting and close combat.

[*]Bladesinger and Infiltration being restricted to two heroes each rustles my jimmies. I'm cool with restrictions on one special skill, but two bothers me. Especially annoying given that you've got restriction to a henchman type on Bladesinger in combination with Long Lived.

Which one would you open back up to all, infiltration maybe? I actually thought about scrapping infiltration in favor of a different skill.

[*]Sense Corruption is interesting without being gamebreaking, but it'll just gather dust if you're not facing those warbands.

Agreed

[*]Pathfinder's traps are essentially worthless. They'll do jack squat until he takes Infiltration as an advance, and enemy warbands can see where it is, and can walk around it. If you make it hidden, it's a huge gamble that anyone even walks near that area.

I wouldn’t say worthless. If the Pathfinder sets up the trap next to a stationary shooting model, the opponent either has to go 1-on-1 in shooting with that model or charge, thus setting off the trap. Or if being pursued the Wood Elf player can move to the trap and cause a potential additional hit on the pursuer.

[*]Your Wardancers are particularly nasty - denying parries is pretty huge in the early game were people eschew armor for bucklers and swords. I dislike the restriction on skill lists.

I felt that due to the Deny Parry special rule, a restriction was needed, plus he gets (3) skills for a henchman (this is or isn’t a bonus depending on how you play), and I upped the cost per model and lowered to 0-3.

[*]Oddly enough, your Treekin is in my opinion, severely underpowered. It's a touch faster than my last version of it, but the drawbacks are immense. Trading 16% death chance for missing the next game every time it's taken OOA isn't great, especially combined with your version of Spirit Guardian which means that your opponents will dogpile on the Spirit-touched model first or try for a polearm crit to push him away, then murder the Treekin while it's WS1, I1, A1. I'd rather pick up another elf henchman rather than the Treekin with those drawbacks.

Lower the gc maybe? Or increase the profile WS?

[*]The animals... aside from the fact that I dislike animals in warbands on principle, I feel like they are a huge waste of time. Go for anything other than the dog and you're sinking enough money into it that you could buy and equip a new warband member, who could have armor, ranged attack, and two weapons. You waste a rare roll trying to find these albatrosses, and even the dog is Rare 9, so it''s not easily replaced if you lose it. Pricewise, given the choice between a Stag or Gladewood Bow, or the Warhawk and an Elven Cloak, I wouldn't even bother with the animals. If I were playing this warband the animals would remain untouched until my warband was full and I had pretty good equipment on several guys already. Plus, three equipment entries just for one model when you can only have one at a time strikes me as a waste of space.

The biggest advantage is that you get a 13th model in your warband. However, maybe lower the gc? Or make them easier to obtain? I think the fact that both the Stag and Warhawk have over an 16” charge, and the Warhawk in particular can charge a model as soon as it comes into play, are pretty big advantages.

There are aspects of your re-write that I'll gladly adapt - I'm going to drop Forest Spirit and Woodland Adept from my skill list, and tweak my spells, but by and large I'm not sold on your changes.

Please, don’t feel obligated to make changes, unless you like the concepts. This wasn’t meant to be a “this or that or something in between” scenario. I wanted to put together a list for my group that I liked, they may shoot this one down in favor of yours, or we may end up with a mix. Just some other ideas and possibilities.

__________________________________________________ ________

The talismanic tattoos are broken. 6+ ward save on top of armor saves and step aside/dodge becomes too much. There are rare instances in the game where such a save is granted, and usually comes at a high cost.

Maybe then, if you have this skill you cannot take step aside or dodge, or maybe go with how it was before with a 6+ unmodified armor save?

Blade Singer IMO needs to go as well. it creates a rule that directly counters a balance issue GW set out to fix in the early days of mordheim when spears were 1 handed.

What if it was modified where they may fight with the (glaive)halberd but not spear, still too much? It is only available to the Way Warden, and Wardancer if they get TLGT, so some restriciton there.

PathFinder ability, I like the ability and it could make sense to be in a wood elf band. seems to be a copy of the Berjerger (sp?) hero from the Averlanders. not a bad idea, but adding more abilities and not increasing cost is a big no-no. as it is, a Human Champion is 35 gc, and an Elf champion for 10gc more gets +1 M, +1 BS, +2 Init, and a special ability?

Agreed, I actually did increase the cost by 5gc, but I’m not married to this special ability. However, since both you and Dyrnwyn think the traps aren't really worth anything, does it justify a significant cost increase? In the original list, Pathfinder was only 40 gc and was harding to spot if hidden, making it harder to charge (which is similar to the trap without the potential for injury).

War Dancers Combat Specialist also creates an issue. Allowing a lads got talent roll to take an extra skill makes them better than Path Finders. (Like Dyrnwyn said, the traps arent particularily useful) which will encourage people to get more and more lads results and fire the core hero. This will create an imbalance late game and create another 'witch hunter' style of play: only 1 strategy worth playing.

How about then, no 3rd skill set, but still must take Combat and Special?

Sprites - These things are better than magical artifacts. and you can purchase an average of one every 2 games (late game). No one else has such a powerful late game item. I don’t agree with them in Dyrnwyns list, agree even less with them on this list.

I actually charge more than the original list at 120 + 6X10, and other than the 1 that causes fear, I think the rules are exactly the same. However I digress, I think if they were Rare 12 that would make them hard enough to obtain.

Warhawk beast - the ability to place a model where ever you want, and allow it to charge as soon as it enters play... is too much for Mordheim. that ability is restricted in 40k to one or two models in the entire game. Adding that to Mordheim , where a single charge can have such a huge impact on the game is too much. especially at WS4 STR4.

This is kind of funny, since Dyrnwyn, thought the Warhawk was useless, so I was looking at them being more accessible, now you say less so. I think with a downgrade to WS3 Str3, which is probably more in line with reality anyway, it will be ok, since you can’t obtain this at the beginning of the campaign anyway, with only 1 attack, I think it may be dispatched rather easily, unless used in combination with another warrior. However with a 9 move, I am not sure it really needs the ability to charge when placed on the battlefield, since it can probably almost do that anyway.

Magic - still too powerful. Fluff wise, wood elf magic is very weak, and when it comes to Mordheim ,this spell list rivals Skaven for magical power. Every spell is not only useful, but Good! Most spell lists have one or two spells that simply suck, or have Very low use.

Again, I think I actually raised the required rolls and decreased the distances in inches from the original list, but it can go down more.

Spirit Touched - with so much emphasis on this skill with the treekin, a lot of elves will be taking it. All of a sudden, a warband facing off against wood elves will be taking more fear checks than one fighting an undead warband. Doesnt seem right.

Um, Spirit-Touched doesn’t give the fear special ability, it just allows the wood elf to not suffer from the effects of it. Maybe I wrote this wrong on the list.

Treekin. balanced, maybe a bit under powered, but, the rest of the list is on the high end on the power side to make up for that. Balancing units and warbands is more than just individual characteristics, its how it fits into the warband.

Lower by 10 gc? Or keep as is? Dyrnwyn also thought it was underpowered, but by a greater margin.

Drynwyns list managed to tone down the nature of the elf warbands enough that it would be compatible in a core-Mordheim campaign, which is what we all need! Theres lots of rules and abilities in this warband that could be abused and exploited heavily.

Again, I think I actually upped the costs of all models in the warband, except Way Warden and Glade Guard, so I was actually thinking that this was a more balanced list, but I do think the special rules need to be diminished, I was looking too much at the wood elf army book.

Hero - Spirit Touched, Talisman Save, Spear wielding skill, Step Aside.
Now your elf Causes Fear, Strikes First, gets his bonus attack, Gets an Armor save, A 2nd armor save, AND a third armor save.

He actually wouldn’t cause fear, but I do see a problem with the rest, yes. I will need to change Talismanic Tattoo's and the Bladsinger skill or remove it complely. I would like to keep the skill since the models for Wardancers with spear/glaive and sword look really cool.



It's kind of interesting, my general vibe from Dyrnwyn, was that other than a few "overpowered" skills(Spirit-Touched, Tattoo's and Wardancers) which I can modify, a lot of the items or skills on the list were too restrictive or not worth having (Bladesinger, Infiltration, Beasts, Traps) and that the list was generally weaker.

Zekk however, made similar comments about the power of the skills (Spirit-Touched-although it doesn't cause fear, Tattoo's), but thought that the rest of the list was stronger (Bladesinger, Beasts) even with the increased prices on most of the models and increased prices to standard and special equipment.

Must be some significantly different playing styles here. I have always felt that the elves were too powerful, if you look at the most recent shadow warriors thread though, it is funny how people are saying the opposite.

[Zekk05]

oops, mis read spirit touched. immune to fear isnt as bad.

when it comes to creating warbands, special rules are the last thing to be considered. The less special rules the better. elf lists are overloaded with special rules and extra abilities that go too far.

giving them all this crazy gear, with access to magic, powerful special skills, and the elven abilities (including move and shoot) is a bit much. The ability to move and shoot (in the other list as well) is effectively giving Everoyne +1 BS. IMO, something has to go entirely, (with both lists) and magic may be the key here. not all warbands get magic, warbands which would otherwise get magic in WFB. (dwarves, for example) Maybe just removing the spell caster all together is the best way to balance everything. (this goes out to Drynwyn too). replace the spell caster with a 2nd path finder, and the hero list would feel more elf-like.

[Brother Fenix]

oops, mis read spirit touched. immune to fear isnt as bad.

when it comes to creating warbands, special rules are the last thing to be considered. The less special rules the better. elf lists are overloaded with special rules and extra abilities that go too far.

giving them all this crazy gear, with access to magic, powerful special skills, and the elven abilities (including move and shoot) is a bit much. The ability to move and shoot (in the other list as well) is effectively giving Everoyne +1 BS. IMO, something has to go entirely, (with both lists) and magic may be the key here. not all warbands get magic, warbands which would otherwise get magic in WFB. (dwarves, for example) Maybe just removing the spell caster all together is the best way to balance everything. (this goes out to Drynwyn too). replace the spell caster with a 2nd path finder, and the hero list would feel more elf-like.

I think that is a really good suggestion. It would set them apart from Shadow Warriors, and like it says on Mordheimer "don't try to re-create the entire army book". Fluff wise I can see to how a Spellsinger would stay near Athel Loren to protect it, and also stay near other more experienced magic users to learn from them. In addition it doesn't seem like the Spellsingers use anything for equipment, other than a magic staff or wand, so this sort of felt wrong to me to provide them access to other weapons.

The move and shoot things is huge. It does seem very Wood Elfy though, I like Drynwyn suggesting that it only be allowed at short range.

[Zekk05]

Im not saying get rid of it. I think its suiting to the warband, but the rest of the band must be balanced around this global Ballistic Skill bonus.

Or
Restricting it to only certain warriors ala Reiklanders. (Only the Marksmen get the bonus ballistic skill, and then it only takes them to 4)

[Brother Fenix]

Im not saying get rid of it. I think its suiting to the warband, but the rest of the band must be balanced around this global Ballistic Skill bonus.

Or
Restricting it to only certain warriors ala Reiklanders. (Only the Marksmen get the bonus ballistic skill, and then it only takes them to 4)

Wait, ok, don't get rid of the Move and Shoot, ok. I thought for a second you were referring to the Spellsinger.

And...wait a second, what about your comments on this thread?:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...hadow+warriors

It almost seems as if we have switched roles.

[Dyrnwyn]

Actually, I think despite my comments - your warband is overall much more powerful. With the exception of the Treekin and Pathfinder, every model is overall better than mine. The Wild Hunter, despite my knocking on the animals, gets to bring an extra member to the warband. The reason I knock on the animals is that from a player's perspective, they are no more durable than henchmen, are much harder to find and replace. From a design standpoint, you've wasted half a page to make three pieces of unique equipment that are restricted to one model and are mutually exclusive. That said, the stag and warhawk are quite powerful - M8-9 is pretty huge, and the Hawk's ability to simply turn up and charge is beyond even 40k's Deep Strike - there's no scatter, no mishap chance, not even a 'to-hit' roll with the falcon. It's surefire, which is big. Plus, I'm pretty sure the stag and the warhawk ought to be Large Targets.

You have FAR more sources of boosted Str stuff than my band has. My band has the Treekin, blade staves on the charge, and short-range Gladewood Bows. Eventually blade staves might be S5 on the charge, and the poisonous Spite might help, but by and large my elves are limited to S4. You have Halberds for henchmen, double-handed weapons on the heroes, your Wild Hunter starts at S4, the Stag is S5 on the charge, Gladewood Bows are available to henchmen, and you've incentivized Ladding Wardancers by giving them a unique skill. I don't view the Combat Shooting Special skill lists as a boost because locally we play that racial Special skill-lists are always available to members of that band.

Couple other comments - I don't feel dropping the cost on the Treekin will help. Going down to M1, I1, A1, basically means you will never buy a Treekin until every single Hero you have is Spirit-touched, and even then, you have to baby the thing because if it charges out of the umbrella, or the umbrella charges away from it, it's HOSED. Your rule doesn't have a gate - it doesn't check for distance at a particular time, so if the Treekin EVER leave the umbrella, it immidiately suffers a stat drop. This means order of operations becomes incredibly important, and the Treekin is flat out useless if you don't have two Spirit-touched heroes in the band, because it and the St hero become rooted. If the hero charges or runs, the Treekin debuffs. If the Treekin charges, it debuffs. So basically you need multipl St heroes to use the Treekin at all, and if that's the case, your version of Spirit-touched basically makes the warband more magic resistant than dwarves. Part of the problem that I've realized with making my warband is simply making something cost more or more rare doesn't make it balanced - it makes it harder to obtain, but once you have it, you're still better off than Joe Everyman with his mercs.

[Brother Fenix]

Actually, I think despite my comments - your warband is overall much more powerful. With the exception of the Treekin and Pathfinder, every model is overall better than mine. The Wild Hunter, despite my knocking on the animals, gets to bring an extra member to the warband. The reason I knock on the animals is that from a player's perspective, they are no more durable than henchmen, are much harder to find and replace. From a design standpoint, you've wasted half a page to make three pieces of unique equipment that are restricted to one model and are mutually exclusive. That said, the stag and warhawk are quite powerful - M8-9 is pretty huge, and the Hawk's ability to simply turn up and charge is beyond even 40k's Deep Strike - there's no scatter, no mishap chance, not even a 'to-hit' roll with the falcon. It's surefire, which is big. Plus, I'm pretty sure the stag and the warhawk ought to be Large Targets.

You have FAR more sources of boosted Str stuff than my band has. My band has the Treekin, blade staves on the charge, and short-range Gladewood Bows. Eventually blade staves might be S5 on the charge, and the poisonous Spite might help, but by and large my elves are limited to S4. You have Halberds for henchmen, double-handed weapons on the heroes, your Wild Hunter starts at S4, the Stag is S5 on the charge, Gladewood Bows are available to henchmen, and you've incentivized Ladding Wardancers by giving them a unique skill. I don't view the Combat Shooting Special skill lists as a boost because locally we play that racial Special skill-lists are always available to members of that band.

Couple other comments - I don't feel dropping the cost on the Treekin will help. Going down to M1, I1, A1, basically means you will never buy a Treekin until every single Hero you have is Spirit-touched, and even then, you have to baby the thing because if it charges out of the umbrella, or the umbrella charges away from it, it's HOSED. Your rule doesn't have a gate - it doesn't check for distance at a particular time, so if the Treekin EVER leave the umbrella, it immidiately suffers a stat drop. This means order of operations becomes incredibly important, and the Treekin is flat out useless if you don't have two Spirit-touched heroes in the band, because it and the St hero become rooted. If the hero charges or runs, the Treekin debuffs. If the Treekin charges, it debuffs. So basically you need multipl St heroes to use the Treekin at all, and if that's the case, your version of Spirit-touched basically makes the warband more magic resistant than dwarves. Part of the problem that I've realized with making my warband is simply making something cost more or more rare doesn't make it balanced - it makes it harder to obtain, but once you have it, you're still better off than Joe Everyman with his mercs.

First of all, I really appreciate the comments, they are both constructive and helpful. I hadn't really thought about the double-handed weapon thing, since I never take them at the start of the game, but now in thinking about it, by putting it in the equipment list it allows them to get it without first getting the Weapons Expert skill, which is pretty big. I guess when I added that in I was just thinking about that noble model that is holding the huge sword.

Stag to large target, and I am thinking about removing the Warhawk all together. I think it is just too hard to bring a flying creature into Mordheim, and it's rules are too difficult to make in the this game system so that it would be realistic. I mean, why wouldn't it just fly away and then swoop in again. And from a game play perspective a charge like that it very powerful.

I thought about removing the Gladewood bows for henchmen, and even took them out at one point, but then put them back so the Glade Guard could potentially get them later, but they should go.

Special Skills. We play that you can only choose (2) sets and if you choose special, that counts as a single choice. I do know that some people play that Special is automatic, so I was a little torn on that rule. However for other Henchmen (ogre, halfling, etc) it does say that they must chose skills X and Y, which as a restriction can mitigate some bonuses they receive.

As for the Treekin, I see what you mean here about the charge distance and keeping the hero nearby. I think based upon all the comments about it being a little weak, I could increase the distance to 18" for spirit guardian, that would give it more flexibility, and the spirit gaurdian rules only applies if it is not already in Hand to hand...?

I do agree that while making things cost more and more rare does not change the fact that once you have it, you are better. However, if you waste hero's out looking for Rare 11 and 12 items over and over, and they never get it, while your mercs are getting poison, equipment, etc that make them better, you may soon find yourself falling behind. I think of the Tome of Magic. It would only be late in the game where you would have 200 gc available and a Hero that finally finds it, by that time the Mercs have Strongman Str 4 and a two handed weapon, plus Step Aside or Heavy Armor.

So part of that balancing act in increasing the cost is to ask, where are you in the campaign when you have enough gold to acquire this?

P.S. Why does it seem like the three of us, thesoundofmusica and occasionally whitesilk are all that's left of the heart and soul of this forum section?

HAHA, maybe that will generate some responses!

[Zekk05]

LOL
Ya, ive done a lot more reading into the elf warbands since. more experience. up until then, the ppl playing them were just poor players, not using half of the elves abilities. things have changed!


When writing rules, base it on the core rules of the game, not house rules. Core rules say that any henchmen that gets a Lads roll has to choose 2 skill sets and the Special list counts towards this. its not automatic. its referred to directly in an Errata.

[Brother Fenix]

LOL
Ya, ive done a lot more reading into the elf warbands since. more experience. up until then, the ppl playing them were just poor players, not using half of the elves abilities. things have changed!


When writing rules, base it on the core rules of the game, not house rules. Core rules say that any henchmen that gets a Lads roll has to choose 2 skill sets and the Special list counts towards this. its not automatic. its referred to directly in an Errata.

I was sitting here thinking, that guy who argued that the elves needed more benefits, where did that guy go?

As for TLGT that is how we play, I didn't know it was in the Errata though, so wasn't sure which was the "official rule" it just made sense to us since it didn't seem fair that just because you have "special" skills your "lad" gets a 3rd skill set.

Alright, re-write to come.

[Zekk05]

hahaha
ya, opinions change, and over the past while, there was enough good points brought up to cause me to reconsider my stance. i was wrong! there you have it, I admit it! :P lol

[Brother Fenix]

Alright, I am a ways through the re-write.

Maybe just removing the spell caster all together is the best way to balance everything. (this goes out to Drynwyn too). replace the spell caster with a 2nd path finder, and the hero list would feel more elf-like.

The Spellsinger is gone, Warhawk is gone, Pathfinder is 0-2 and traps are gone and there are several other changes.

Next question:
Remove the Enchanted Acorns or Familiar Spites? I like both, but I think there should only be one item that is Rare 12 on the special equipment list.

The Acorns are huge for keeping your models alive. Being able to re-roll the first dice gives the potential to seriously improve your warriors condition (although you might roll worse).

Enchanted Acorns
60 + 3D6 gc – Rare 12
After purchasing, roll to determine how many acorns are acquired (D3+1 acorns.) When a hero has to roll on the Serious Injury Chart and the roll result is 11 -35, the hero may “consume” one, and only one, acorn to re-roll the first die (i.e. If a result of 14 is rolled, and the hero has at least one enchanted acorn, then the player may re-roll the “1”). The second roll result must be accepted, and cannot be re- rolled again.

I really like the Spites and I have increased the cost and made them Rare -12, plus Spirit-Touched. I think it is a cool concept, the random advantage, and I like the modelling concept for miniatures, but maybe it is just too good. As an alternative, how about changing the rules?

120 + D6x10 gc - Rare 12 (Sprit-touched hero only)
....Roll once on the following table – This spite may not be sold back or exchanged with another member of the band. No more than a single spite per hero.

1 – Murderous: d3 extra close combat attacks at S2 and I4. Count as Dagger attacks at the WS of the hero.
2 – Terrifying: This model causes fear.
3 – Nurturing: This model can recover one wound at any time, once per game on a roll of 4+.
4 – Protective: This model gains a +1 to its armor save.
5 – Poisonous: This models wounds on a 4+ regardless of Toughness.
6 – Distracting: Enemy models in close combat with this model have a -1 to-hit modifier on the first turn of combat.

Additionally, the fortunate presence of the spite allows the hero to re-roll a single die, once per game.

Alternate rules:

Familiar Spite
150 + D6x10 gc - Rare 12 (Sprit-touched hero only)
...Roll a d3 on the following table – This spite may not be sold back or exchanged with another member of the band. No more than a single spite per hero.

1 – Terrifying: This model causes fear. (Or sub with Protective +1 Armor Save)
2 – Nurturing: This model can recover one wound at any time, once per game on a roll of 4+.
3 – Distracting: Enemy models in close combat with this model have a -1 to-hit modifier on the first turn of combat.

Additionally, the fortunate presence of the spite allows the hero to re-roll a single die, once per game.


Last Question:

Keep Infiltration, scrap it and replace it with another skill, or just remove it and only have 4 general skills and one limited skill?

[Zekk05]

infiltration is a common skill for many non human races. no reason to remove it, really.

[Brother Fenix]

infiltration is a common skill for many non human races. no reason to remove it, really.

True, maybe I will put it back then. I had removed it and modified Spirit-Touched and included a new skill in it's place.

Spirit-touched
The hero is immune to fear and All Alone test.

Armour of Ariel
The hero has been protected by wards of the Stewards
of Ariel, he can dispel magic cast on him on a 5+.

[Brother Fenix]

Skill Waywatcher Adept now requires you to remain stationary.


Any thoughts?

[Richard_III]

If you are interested here are some Wood Elf Rules I wrote up
http://return-to-mordheim.blogspot.c...-new-list.html

[Brother Fenix]

If you are interested here are some Wood Elf Rules I wrote up
http://return-to-mordheim.blogspot.c...-new-list.html

Thanks for the link, always good to have more ideas. Looks like a really strong list, especially with the leader having 2 wounds, 2 attacks, and a skill. Have you play-tested?

[Brother Fenix]

Change "Pathfinder" name to:

1. Scout
2. Sentinel (Scout Kindred)
3. Hawkeye (Scout Kindred)
4. Pathwatcher (Waywatcher Kindred)
5. Shadow Strider (Waywatcher Kindred)
6. Mist Walker (Waywatcher Kindred)
More in line with 6th Edition fluff (Wood elf Kindreds)
or
7. Keep it as Pathfinder
8. Something else: _________________

What is your favorite or most fluffy?

*Edit*...No love huh, no opinions?