Dueling Wood Elf Warbands - If you have the willpower

[Brother Fenix]

Asrai Archery: Does not specify what penalties. As written, no penalties at all in short range, including cover and moving. Is this correct or did you mean just moving? Otherwise that's effectively +2 to hit in short range. Also, all bows or just Bows?

Max Stats: S and T four? Out of sync with fluff and previous versions.

Bladesinger: Cannot use another glaive, but can use any other weapon, like a spear or something? Did you just mean a shield?

Elemental: This essentially means you cannot start a campaign until a model has Spirit Touched. This seems a little harsh.

Otherwise, it looks good.
I might suggest bumping Glade Guard to I4, they are elves after all.

Didn't want to hijack the other thread, so I moved the comments here...

Asrai Archery: I meant all bows and only the -1 penalty for moving not cover, etc, thanks for catching that, need to make a clarification change, see below.

*Edit*"Asrai Archery: Asrai are mobile archers without equal. Sentinels and Glade Guard may move and fire bows without incurring the -1 movement hit modifier when shooting at targets in short range."

Max Stats: I used the stat line for Elf Ranger in the LRB. I know people have suggested elves should be 3's (S & T), I think that is too much of a hindrance, but am always evaluating.

Bladesinger: I meant another "single-handed" weapon. Again, thanks for proof-reading I need to change the language there. See below:

*Edit*"Bladesinger
(Way Warden and Wardancer Hero Only)
The hero is a master of wardancer weaponry; he may use a glaive (halberd) as a single-handed weapon, he may not carry another glaive but may carry another single handed weapon in the other hand."

Not sure if that is better...hopefully?

Elemental: I think I will remove the ladder half so the Treekin is available at the start. However, the Treekin will be at M, I and A 1 unless there is someone with the spirit-touched skill in 18" per the spirit guardian rule. See below:

*Edit*"Elemental: Treekin are woodland spirits who are temporarily bound to organic matter, they do not gain experience."

As for I4, I really looked at the statline and think with all the other benefits, Asrai archery, M5, etc, the increase would make the recruitment cost go up. Plus I think of these guys as elves who have no experience, other than practicing with a bow growing up and I wanted a "human equivalent" henchman.

[Dribble Joy]

/set nerdy_rule_lawyer_mode = 1
We could tweak things just to clarify them:

Asrai Archery:
Asrai Archery: Asrai are mobile archers without equal. Sentinels and Glade Guard do not incur the -1 to hit modifier for moving and shooting when firing at targets within short range when using bows (short bows, bows, long bows, elf bows and glade bows).

Regarding Treekin, it seems highly restrictive (especially to starting warbands) that without the skill, the treekin is largely useless. Perhaps it should suffer stupidity unless a hero has the skill?

[tatermitts]

Overall, I think this warband looks solid, at least no glaring problems. I think the leader may be a little too expensive, as is the treekin. The treekin is not as good as the rat ogre, and costs more. Other than that, it looks interesting: fast and squishy. Maybe some more equipment options for fun, but otherwise looks decently balanced. The 4 heroes and 12 member slot is a huge disadvantage, so you may want to increase the effectiveness or reduce the overall cost of the warband.
This is the warband I made is:
Waywarden w/ bladestaff 110
Wild Hunter w/ Bladestaff 80
Sentinal x2, w/ bows and daggers 114
2x Wardancers w/ daggers 94
3x Glad Guard w/ daggers 96

total 494

Looks decent, but lacking in ranged. At least they're fast enough to close the gap.

[Dribble Joy]

Compared with the leaders of the other elder/elite warbands, 85 is quite reasonable. +1 M (big plus), WS and Int over a merc captain is a big advantage. You've got a greater chance of the charge, hitting on 3s against just about anything to begin with and more than likely striking first (especially if given a spear).

[tatermitts]

The warband size of 12, high cost of models and 3 toughness mean that you'll be wounded often and route. Sure you'll get hits, and have a slight ranged advantage, but you'll roll significantly less dice than every other warband. You also only get 4 heroes, which is a huge disadvantage in a campaign setting. For as much as people complained about dark elves I thought they suffered from the same problems. I have never seen a successful Dark Elf warband.

Mercenaries: 5 heroes for 160. Leader is 60, 1 Move, 1 WS and 1 Initiative lower than the elf leader. 5 marksmen with bows and 2-4 melee guys, depending on which route and what equipment you take.
Asrai: 4 heroes for 200. One of the heroes has an ability that, if you use, cranks up that cost considerably with no 5th hero. Best case, you afford 6 henchmen and everyone will have shoddy equipment.

So, is mobility that important that you can't overcome the speed with 1/3rd larger force? I'll take more dice over moving an extra 1-2 inches a turn. If you go reikland, the marksmen are even better than glade guards because bs 4 is better than 3 w/ short range movement bonus, and they cost 5 points less. If you go with the extra 100 gold warband, you'll get 15 decently equipped guys, way better than the 9 decently equipped slightly faster guys. I would take any of the base mercenaries 50 to 1 against the Asrai.
Look at skaven: The assassin is only 60 points and is just as good (and faster) than the Asrai leader. Sure, Skaven are broken, but we have to have some point of comparison. As you probably know, Skaven are just a mobile but can have 20 models and have access to cheap slings. I would take Skaven 100 to 1 against an Asrai warband.
On top of all this, all other warbands would get at least 1 extra hero (except orcs, Dwarfs balance that with a free piece of weird stone). I'd say that some overall price reductions or increases in hero count/warband size would help round out the Asrai.

[Brother Fenix]

Asrai Archery:
Asrai Archery: Asrai are mobile archers without equal. Sentinels and Glade Guard do not incur the -1 to hit modifier for moving and shooting when firing at targets within short range when using bows (short bows, bows, long bows, elf bows and glade bows).

Regarding Treekin, it seems highly restrictive (especially to starting warbands) that without the skill, the treekin is largely useless. Perhaps it should suffer stupidity unless a hero has the skill?

Thanks for the wording, I think that is much clearer.

As for the Treekin, this was an extensive debate, and I would agree, without one model with the spirit-touched skill, it isn't much use. I considered stupidity, but didn't really think it was in line with the concept. I also wanted to stay away from it being, "just another Rat Ogre." I have thought about increasing it's non-spirit-touched move to 2, giving it a 4 inch run, but really the Treekin is there for a little later in the campaign and I am not sure the 1 M increase is enough of a benefit. Although initially it may be worse than the Rat Ogre, once you have a spirit-touched model it has similar stats (Str being one less) and can only be removed from the roster on a 1, which I think is a pretty big advantage.

The warband size of 12, high cost of models and 3 toughness mean that you'll be wounded often and route. Sure you'll get hits, and have a slight ranged advantage, but you'll roll significantly less dice than every other warband. You also only get 4 heroes, which is a huge disadvantage in a campaign setting. For as much as people complained about dark elves I thought they suffered from the same problems. I have never seen a successful Dark Elf warband.

Mercenaries: 5 heroes for 160. Leader is 60, 1 Move, 1 WS and 1 Initiative lower than the elf leader. 5 marksmen with bows and 2-4 melee guys, depending on which route and what equipment you take.
Asrai: 4 heroes for 200. One of the heroes has an ability that, if you use, cranks up that cost considerably with no 5th hero. Best case, you afford 6 henchmen and everyone will have shoddy equipment.

So, is mobility that important that you can't overcome the speed with 1/3rd larger force? I'll take more dice over moving an extra 1-2 inches a turn. If you go reikland, the marksmen are even better than glade guards because bs 4 is better than 3 w/ short range movement bonus, and they cost 5 points less. If you go with the extra 100 gold warband, you'll get 15 decently equipped guys, way better than the 9 decently equipped slightly faster guys. I would take any of the base mercenaries 50 to 1 against the Asrai.
Look at skaven: The assassin is only 60 points and is just as good (and faster) than the Asrai leader. Sure, Skaven are broken, but we have to have some point of comparison. As you probably know, Skaven are just a mobile but can have 20 models and have access to cheap slings. I would take Skaven 100 to 1 against an Asrai warband.
On top of all this, all other warbands would get at least 1 extra hero (except orcs, Dwarfs balance that with a free piece of weird stone). I'd say that some overall price reductions or increases in hero count/warband size would help round out the Asrai.

People always comment that elves are overpowered and an unfair warband, so maybe I over corrected, but I really don't think so. I looked largely at the Dwarf warband for comparison in skill and costs. In your list above you only have eight models, the starter I created only had 7:

Asrai Wayfarers
Heroes
Way Warden w/ Sword: 95
Wild Hunter w/ Bladestaff: 80
(2)Sentinels w/ Gladewood Bows: 170

Hero Total: 345

Henchman
(2) Wardancers w /Sword: 110
Glade Guard w/ Long Bow: 45

Henchmen Total: 155

Warband total: 500

The big advantage in early game is the higher move and initiative, meaning you can most often charge and in later rounds of combat strike first.

With the move and fire rules, my sentinels and glade guard can continue to move away from their attacker and shoot at their base ballistic skill. (as long as you keep them at ground level)

That said I have considered some cost reductions, mostly for Sentinels and/or Glade Guard, mostly because as you pointed out, ignoring the -1 to hit is not as good as a +1 to BS. Maybe 5 gc less, but maybe not, they also both have +1 M over Humans?

I have play-tested some, in a couple one-off's and in a very brief campaign, and with the existing list, I didn't notice any serious play imbalance issues. I found that they largely play like wood elves. They have lesser numbers and have to engage only when they have an advantage. Otherwise, they need to move away from combat and use their ranged attackers. Wardancers and the Way Warden can be lethal in close combat.

[Dribble Joy]

Direct comparisons with humans/mercs (or any other warband) can't really be taken. The Skaven leader is considerably more powerful than a captain, but that Ld7 is a massive disadvantage. Looking at the stats and arguing that the differences are small is to ignore how they play out in the tactics and playstyle of the warband.

M5 is a big advantage, even if it's 'only 1-2" extra a turn'. It gives you greater command over who can charge.

Also, if you're getting shot by 15 slings, you need to get some more terrain. And hide more.

[tatermitts]

Direct comparisons with humans/mercs (or any other warband) can't really be taken. The Skaven leader is considerably more powerful than a captain, but that Ld7 is a massive disadvantage. Looking at the stats and arguing that the differences are small is to ignore how they play out in the tactics and playstyle of the warband.

M5 is a big advantage, even if it's 'only 1-2" extra a turn'. It gives you greater command over who can charge.

Also, if you're getting shot by 15 slings, you need to get some more terrain. And hide more.

So, a point by point.
A direct comparison can be made: this is a game based on points cost, so the cost in points directly compares to another cost in points. I can get a sword and bow for 20 and I can get a verminkin for 20. These prices are directly comparable. I can spend 20 to get one or the other, so I would have to compare them and choose which I would like to spend 20 on.
While there is something to be said for speed, having more dice to roll will yield better results than moving quickly. I understand that tactically things will play out differently based on warband composition, but they have streamlined costs and if you look at all official warbands (with the exception of skaven) it is easy to see how they decided the cost of models. The cost and the stats are what make a model; a charge only happens once in a combat, and can favor even the slowest warband.
I know that terrain is good and great, but a skaven warband can easily field 10-12 models with slings, more if you ditch some high cost equipment. They will each be getting at least one shot because of their mobility and the fact that the player will be playing to their strengths.
We usually play with around 10 buildings and 4-6 barriers on a 4x4 table, and shooting still happens. I'm not sure how much terrain you play with but if you play with much more you are severely hindering shooting attacks that come at a high price and are already not that effective in the core rulebook. Not to tell you how to enjoy your game; if you guys like that shooting is not viable that is completely up to your group of players. If you do favor a more melee heavy game, the Asrai are even worse.

[Dribble Joy]

So, a point by point.
A direct comparison can be made: this is a game based on points cost, so the cost in points directly compares to another cost in points.

True, however, when placed in context, these comparisons break down. There are so many angles that you have to come from that simplistic correlations are just not appropriate. An Orc Boss is a full 20 gc more than a captain, yet an Orc boy is 25 gc; the same as a marksman and less than a swordsman.

We usually play with around 10 buildings and 4-6 barriers on a 4x4 table, and shooting still happens. I'm not sure how much terrain you play with but if you play with much more you are severely hindering shooting attacks that come at a high price and are already not that effective in the core rulebook. Not to tell you how to enjoy your game; if you guys like that shooting is not viable that is completely up to your group of players. If you do favor a more melee heavy game, the Asrai are even worse.

Depending on how big those buildings are, then yes, you're not playing with enough. Shooting is very powerful; if you are playing with less than 75% of the board being terrain, then either your shooting warbands need to step up their game or the combat warbands need to know how to use the cover.

[Dribble Joy]

Double Post.

[tatermitts]

These are about 1/5th of the terrain pieces we've made to play with. We have about 5 of the 3 level buildings, 6-7 of the 2 levels and the rest is 1 level and ruins.
I'd say with the high cost of ranged weapons and the numerous negative modifiers that exist ranged is the least viable of options. There are warbands in our group that don't have a single ranged weapon and do just fine, and I don't think that is how it was intended. I'm sure they wanted to take the strength away from ranged, but BS 3 guys have a hard time hitting anything at all, and most guys are BS 3. This in conjunction with the cost and the fact that it is (without skills) only one shot per turn, who wouldn't rather put down tons of terrain and just make melee powerhouses that fight each other? Melee guys get 2 attacks for 2 weapons, and have the potential to gain more attacks to their base as they level up. With too much terrain shooting would be completely useless.

As far as your comparison to the Mob boss, you are aware that he is strength 4 toughness 4 right? I'd pay 10 gold for a strength or toughness on just about any leader. A boy, while he has 1 extra toughness, has to roll for animosity every turn, and may end up doing nothing or attacking a friendly unit. Now, while a straight line comparison can't be made, I would say that disadvantage is enough to warrant a 5-10 point discount.

[Brother Fenix]

Here's the thing. Yes you can make a direct comparison between two henchmen or two hero's or even between equipment. When looking at whether a model is priced accurately, you have to look beyond the starting number of gc. You also have to look at what other models are in the warband. What other special rules and benefits are provided by the model, and also what potential skills and attributes the model can gain as it gains experience.

It is also true that certain attributes are weighed more heavily than others. I think when doing comparisons you have to take the whole warband, both at the start and 10 games down the road and maybe 20 too. Then you can start altering point costs.

[Zekk05]

Typo on list.

the skill that allows the way warden to use a glaive in one hand.. The Glaive isnt in the Heros equipment list. So either the skill has to be updated to permit the hero to use Glaives, Or, Glaive has to be added to the Hero equipment list. OR, the hero would have to take Weapons Training in CC weapons, to be able to use that skill. (which is silly)

[Brother Fenix]

Typo on list.

the skill that allows the way warden to use a glaive in one hand.. The Glaive isnt in the Heros equipment list. So either the skill has to be updated to permit the hero to use Glaives, Or, Glaive has to be added to the Hero equipment list. OR, the hero would have to take Weapons Training in CC weapons, to be able to use that skill. (which is silly)

Corrected now with V5-added to Hero equipment list. (That would have been silly)

[Brother Fenix]

I might suggest bumping Glade Guard to I4, they are elves after all.

After much review and the discussion about Marksmen being BS4, comparisons with other henchmen, etc. Decided to make this change, and lower the Wild Hunter to 50 gc after playing a few more rounds.

[Brother Fenix]

-Treekin now at Movement 2 if not within 18" of a Spirit (v7)
-Minor wording changes to emphasize the Wayfarers as younger Wood Elves and not as accomplished as their Warhammer cousins. (v7)